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Thread: Bonita Papers

  1. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Yes, thanks for the correction; it is the right hand.

    I think it would have been very strange for Dr. Meyer to break rigor at the home. What do you think? I know it's possible, but it seems easier just to turn her for the photo.

    So the first photo is of the back of her head, with the hands in front, and the second is of her from above, on her side? Or am I just getting all confused again? See the carpet under the shoulder/back? She seems to me to be on her side. So why is her bagged hand in FRONT of her face? And her head was said to be turned TO THE RIGHT SIDE. So that doesn't fit with this either.

    So would Dr. Meyer have to have broken rigor in her neck to turn her head, too? Or was rigor already wearing off, since it starts in the head, moves down to the arms and hands, and reverses in the same sequence? Which would seem to me to change the TOD.

    I'm so confused.

    DeeDee, do you know if the timeline for rigor in small children is shorter than with adults? And how would the cold basement room have affected this? I'm trying to remember if cold delays rigor and heat speeds it up? Or is it vice versa?
    There are things that can affect rigor- the onset and duration. Cold delays rigor, heat speeds it up. Temperature is one of them- ambient air temperature and even whether the decedent had a fever or had recently exercised. Possibly the timeline may be different in children, but not so much that it would be a big impact. The R basement was said (by JR) to be on the warm side, which he mentioned as being one of the reasons why the unrepaired broken window was not important to them. But a finished basement would still be considered room temperature", unless it was under 50 degrees F or so. So the temperature of the WC is not an issue. The 36-hour arc of rigor holds in this case. I do not believe Mayer broke rigor in the home. I think he just turned her from side to side to photograph her, and Mayer himself did not take these photographs remember. Police departments have their own crime scene photographers, usually part of their forensics team.
    Rigor can sometimes be "broken" by strenuous massage, and sometimes funeral directors do this. But the act of turning the body for photos would definitely not be enough to do it.
    Her head was cocked to the right, but we don't know how severe an angle it was at. In the little bits of her chin we see in the autopsy photos, it doesn't seem to be too severe. By the time she was on the autopsy table, rigor was dissipating. It was 8 am on December 27th, making it approx. 32 hours since her death. Rigor was definitely on the wane. When Mayer first saw the body, it was 8 pm Dec, 26th. Using the 36-hour standard arc, I place rigor beginning at just after midnight. By i pm the afternoon of the 26th, when she was brought up, she would be in full rigor, as 12-hour process. All appearances of the body coincide with this arc.
    In looking at the photos of JB on the living room carpet, I still do not see anything that would contradict the statement that her head was cocked to ther right; I see it as a very slight inclination, not a marked turn of her neck.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  2. #26
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    This sure is an excellent lesson on Rigor Mortis DeeDee! I'm intrigued. Did you study this for a special reason? Am I being too inquisitive here? If so, I will apologize for this right now. Very few people here have this knowledge.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  3. #27
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    No need to apologize! I have always enjoyed forensics, and have long read on the subject, before I ever found this forum. I usually remember things I read, even long ago. And I am fortunate to be able to actually envision the cell walls of a body once breathing stops and oxygen is no longer supplied to the cells. In the beginning of this process, the cells don't die right away. Death on a molecular or cellular level, isn't something that happens immediately when the heart stops beating. The process of rigor mortis is one that takes almost two days from cessation of breathing. And it's all about CALCIUM. Calcium ions are present in the cells of our muscle fibers, and they move freely in and out of the cells as our muscles contract and relax, even in the simplest movements (an eyelid flutter). When the heart stops and blood stops being circulated, the delivery of glucose and oxygen it carries to all our organs and tissues stops suddenly. As soon as that happens, the calcium ions are trapped INSIDE the cell walls. The two muscle proteins, actin and myosin, no longer fed by glucose, lack the energy to slide over each other and the muscles are prevented from relaxing. As the timeline progresses, over the first 12 hours after death, the muscles can only contract, and are pulled tighter and tighter, bending the body at the joints, and the muscles become hard and stiff. The skin no longer presses in under pressure. The arms are always especially noticeable as far as how that looks- and the face as well, with the jaw, eyelids, elbows and finger joints always visibly affected.
    That's just the biology of it. The science of it. And what is the good part of that is that although these changes can be affected somewhat by ambient air temperature and the temperature of the person at the moment of death, in average room temperature (including that basement) the arc of rigor mortis is predictable and not subject very much to opinion. That means if she was in full rigor when she was "found" at 1 pm, she died between 12 and 18 hours earlier. Since she was alive when she left the White's (between 9-10 pm) we must start from there. (10 pm). Add to this the position of the pineapple in her digestive tract (it took 2 hours to reach her small intestine and NO digestive process continues after the heart stops) and there you have it- a TOD that really isn't all that variable. Approx. midnight - 1 am. It is shameful that the coroner did not even try to state it on the written report, despite his failure (or maybe because of it) to perform the two standard procedures when pronouncing a person dead.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    No need to apologize! I have always enjoyed forensics, and have long read on the subject, before I ever found this forum. I usually remember things I read, even long ago. And I am fortunate to be able to actually envision the cell walls of a body once breathing stops and oxygen is no longer supplied to the cells. In the beginning of this process, the cells don't die right away. Death on a molecular or cellular level, isn't something that happens immediately when the heart stops beating. The process of rigor mortis is one that takes almost two days from cessation of breathing. And it's all about CALCIUM. Calcium ions are present in the cells of our muscle fibers, and they move freely in and out of the cells as our muscles contract and relax, even in the simplest movements (an eyelid flutter). When the heart stops and blood stops being circulated, the delivery of glucose and oxygen it carries to all our organs and tissues stops suddenly. As soon as that happens, the calcium ions are trapped INSIDE the cell walls. The two muscle proteins, actin and myosin, no longer fed by glucose, lack the energy to slide over each other and the muscles are prevented from relaxing. As the timeline progresses, over the first 12 hours after death, the muscles can only contract, and are pulled tighter and tighter, bending the body at the joints, and the muscles become hard and stiff. The skin no longer presses in under pressure. The arms are always especially noticeable as far as how that looks- and the face as well, with the jaw, eyelids, elbows and finger joints always visibly affected.
    That's just the biology of it. The science of it. And what is the good part of that is that although these changes can be affected somewhat by ambient air temperature and the temperature of the person at the moment of death, in average room temperature (including that basement) the arc of rigor mortis is predictable and not subject very much to opinion. That means if she was in full rigor when she was "found" at 1 pm, she died between 12 and 18 hours earlier. Since she was alive when she left the White's (between 9-10 pm) we must start from there. (10 pm). Add to this the position of the pineapple in her digestive tract (it took 2 hours to reach her small intestine and NO digestive process continues after the heart stops) and there you have it- a TOD that really isn't all that variable. Approx. midnight - 1 am. It is shameful that the coroner did not even try to state it on the written report, despite his failure (or maybe because of it) to perform the two standard procedures when pronouncing a person dead.
    Brilliant, DeeDee. You explained this so well, even I could follow you. Thank you so much.

    But about that digestion time, did you happen to see Learnin's post on the "National Enquirer" thread we're having a discussion about that on? You didn't repond, so maybe you missed it? Just would like to have your input, as he did have the opportunity and expertise to do a rather amazing experiment with pineapple.

    I agree about Meyers shameful autopsy report lacking some essential info, and I now believe that was very deliberate. A conspiracy? Next thing, I'll be seeing UFOs! (This case is turning me into a wingnut.)

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  5. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    No need to apologize! I have always enjoyed forensics, and have long read on the subject, before I ever found this forum. I usually remember things I read, even long ago. And I am fortunate to be able to actually envision the cell walls of a body once breathing stops and oxygen is no longer supplied to the cells. In the beginning of this process, the cells don't die right away. Death on a molecular or cellular level, isn't something that happens immediately when the heart stops beating. The process of rigor mortis is one that takes almost two days from cessation of breathing. And it's all about CALCIUM. Calcium ions are present in the cells of our muscle fibers, and they move freely in and out of the cells as our muscles contract and relax, even in the simplest movements (an eyelid flutter). When the heart stops and blood stops being circulated, the delivery of glucose and oxygen it carries to all our organs and tissues stops suddenly. As soon as that happens, the calcium ions are trapped INSIDE the cell walls. The two muscle proteins, actin and myosin, no longer fed by glucose, lack the energy to slide over each other and the muscles are prevented from relaxing. As the timeline progresses, over the first 12 hours after death, the muscles can only contract, and are pulled tighter and tighter, bending the body at the joints, and the muscles become hard and stiff. The skin no longer presses in under pressure. The arms are always especially noticeable as far as how that looks- and the face as well, with the jaw, eyelids, elbows and finger joints always visibly affected.
    That's just the biology of it. The science of it. And what is the good part of that is that although these changes can be affected somewhat by ambient air temperature and the temperature of the person at the moment of death, in average room temperature (including that basement) the arc of rigor mortis is predictable and not subject very much to opinion. That means if she was in full rigor when she was "found" at 1 pm, she died between 12 and 18 hours earlier. Since she was alive when she left the White's (between 9-10 pm) we must start from there. (10 pm). Add to this the position of the pineapple in her digestive tract (it took 2 hours to reach her small intestine and NO digestive process continues after the heart stops) and there you have it- a TOD that really isn't all that variable. Approx. midnight - 1 am. It is shameful that the coroner did not even try to state it on the written report, despite his failure (or maybe because of it) to perform the two standard procedures when pronouncing a person dead.
    Thank you, DeeDee! I'm printing this so I can read it over and let it sink in. I could have asked you in an e-mail but other posters would not have benefited from your expertise. Although I'm in my 80's now, I still want to learn something new.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    No need to apologize! I have always enjoyed forensics, and have long read on the subject, before I ever found this forum. I usually remember things I read, even long ago. And I am fortunate to be able to actually envision the cell walls of a body once breathing stops and oxygen is no longer supplied to the cells. In the beginning of this process, the cells don't die right away. Death on a molecular or cellular level, isn't something that happens immediately when the heart stops beating. The process of rigor mortis is one that takes almost two days from cessation of breathing. And it's all about CALCIUM. Calcium ions are present in the cells of our muscle fibers, and they move freely in and out of the cells as our muscles contract and relax, even in the simplest movements (an eyelid flutter). When the heart stops and blood stops being circulated, the delivery of glucose and oxygen it carries to all our organs and tissues stops suddenly. As soon as that happens, the calcium ions are trapped INSIDE the cell walls. The two muscle proteins, actin and myosin, no longer fed by glucose, lack the energy to slide over each other and the muscles are prevented from relaxing. As the timeline progresses, over the first 12 hours after death, the muscles can only contract, and are pulled tighter and tighter, bending the body at the joints, and the muscles become hard and stiff. The skin no longer presses in under pressure. The arms are always especially noticeable as far as how that looks- and the face as well, with the jaw, eyelids, elbows and finger joints always visibly affected.
    That's just the biology of it. The science of it. And what is the good part of that is that although these changes can be affected somewhat by ambient air temperature and the temperature of the person at the moment of death, in average room temperature (including that basement) the arc of rigor mortis is predictable and not subject very much to opinion. That means if she was in full rigor when she was "found" at 1 pm, she died between 12 and 18 hours earlier. Since she was alive when she left the White's (between 9-10 pm) we must start from there. (10 pm). Add to this the position of the pineapple in her digestive tract (it took 2 hours to reach her small intestine and NO digestive process continues after the heart stops) and there you have it- a TOD that really isn't all that variable. Approx. midnight - 1 am. It is shameful that the coroner did not even try to state it on the written report, despite his failure (or maybe because of it) to perform the two standard procedures when pronouncing a person dead.
    I am wondering if her eyes were closed when John "found" her?? Or did HE claim that HE closed them?? When you die, your eyes remain in the position that they were in the time of death, because of course...you can't close them yourself if you are dead. With that said...if she was already unconscious...which IMO she was...when the garotte was placed around her neck and tightened...her eyes would have been OPEN, while she gasped for air. If she was unconsious (the headwound came first)....her eyes would have been closed, when the garotte was applied. Anyway...it would just be interesting to know what position her eyes were in when she was found.

  7. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMES View Post
    I am wondering if her eyes were closed when John "found" her?? Or did HE claim that HE closed them?? When you die, your eyes remain in the position that they were in the time of death, because of course...you can't close them yourself if you are dead. With that said...if she was already unconscious...which IMO she was...when the garotte was placed around her neck and tightened...her eyes would have been OPEN, while she gasped for air. If she was unconsious (the headwound came first)....her eyes would have been closed, when the garotte was applied. Anyway...it would just be interesting to know what position her eyes were in when she was found.
    Primary flaccidity (at the moment of death) may cause the eyelids to droop closed. But rigor mortis can pull them open, which is why undertakers have a special glue that they used to glue the eyelids and lips shut. (JB's mouth was open in the photos, another result of rigor).
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  8. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Brilliant, DeeDee. You explained this so well, even I could follow you. Thank you so much.

    But about that digestion time, did you happen to see Learnin's post on the "National Enquirer" thread we're having a discussion about that on? You didn't repond, so maybe you missed it? Just would like to have your input, as he did have the opportunity and expertise to do a rather amazing experiment with pineapple.

    I agree about Meyers shameful autopsy report lacking some essential info, and I now believe that was very deliberate. A conspiracy? Next thing, I'll be seeing UFOs! (This case is turning me into a wingnut.)
    I saw it, but chose not to respond. Not because I disagree with Little, but because this timetable is not fixed in stone (thought there is not a lot of room for variables). Pineapple, as all fruits, is more easily digested than a steak, for example. BUT keep this in mind- food do not "leap frog" over each other in the digestive process. Easily digested foods, like pineapple, while they may move through the digestive tract more quickly than foods that take longer, they will not move PAST each other. They simply take different amounts of time to move along. This puts to rest once and for all many IDI claims of her having eaten the pineapple before she went to the White's. If she had, it would have either been excreted or been in the area of the "soft green fecal material) which was likely whatever she DID eat at the White's or before. It certainly would not be recognizable as pineapple.
    Let's just say that the pineapple would have taken anywhere from 1-2 hours to reach her small intestine (where it was still fragmented and recognizable). Either way, she ate it after getting home and had been dead about 10-12 hours when found.
    Infants and VERY small (toddlers) children often do not develop full rigor because there is less muscle mass, but we know that JB certainly did develop it.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  9. #33
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    DeeDee wrote:

    It is shameful that the coroner did not even try to state it on the written report, despite his failure (or maybe because of it) to perform the two standard procedures when pronouncing a person dead.

    DeeDee, I'm thinking Dr. Myers was more of a personal friend to the Ramseys and was also protecting them here (?).
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    I saw it, but chose not to respond. Not because I disagree with Little, but because this timetable is not fixed in stone (thought there is not a lot of room for variables). Pineapple, as all fruits, is more easily digested than a steak, for example. BUT keep this in mind- food do not "leap frog" over each other in the digestive process. Easily digested foods, like pineapple, while they may move through the digestive tract more quickly than foods that take longer, they will not move PAST each other. They simply take different amounts of time to move along. This puts to rest once and for all many IDI claims of her having eaten the pineapple before she went to the White's. If she had, it would have either been excreted or been in the area of the "soft green fecal material) which was likely whatever she DID eat at the White's or before. It certainly would not be recognizable as pineapple.
    Let's just say that the pineapple would have taken anywhere from 1-2 hours to reach her small intestine (where it was still fragmented and recognizable). Either way, she ate it after getting home and had been dead about 10-12 hours when found.
    Infants and VERY small (toddlers) children often do not develop full rigor because there is less muscle mass, but we know that JB certainly did develop it.
    I'm a little confused by your reponse, DeeDee. Perhaps we're not talking about the same thing.

    It was Learnin, not Little, for one thing, who did the experiment with the pineapple. I have never seen him argue that the pineapple somehow moved past other food in her system; in fact, I've never seen anyone make that argument, but I don't get around like I used to. :lol:

    Also, Learnin is not IDI, unless I've very badly misread his posts for a long time.

    At any rate, thanks for responding.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I'm a little confused by your reponse, DeeDee. Perhaps we're not talking about the same thing.

    It was Learnin, not Little, for one thing, who did the experiment with the pineapple. I have never seen him argue that the pineapple somehow moved past other food in her system; in fact, I've never seen anyone make that argument, but I don't get around like I used to. :lol:

    Also, Learnin is not IDI, unless I've very badly misread his posts for a long time.

    At any rate, thanks for responding.
    I did misread. But I also know that both Learnin and Little are not IDI. I didn't mean to suggest it either. But I have seen some IDI over on WS try to say that the pineapple could have been eaten before she went to the White's. That is what I was disputing, not anything specific that either Learnin or Little said.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    I did misread. But I also know that both Learnin and Little are not IDI. I didn't mean to suggest it either. But I have seen some IDI over on WS try to say that the pineapple could have been eaten before she went to the White's. That is what I was disputing, not anything specific that either Learnin or Little said.
    Oh, yeah, that old IDI argument, compliments of jams and her littleheads, looking for any way to discredit this indisputable evidence that JonBenet ate pineapple at her home a short time before she died. Big old bugaboo, to paraphrase their pseudo savior, Smit.

    What I was asking about was if you read Leanin's experiment. It's on par with Jayelles' Bloomies model, IMO. That's why I was interested in what you think.

    No biggie, though. Appreciate all your help.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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