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Thread: Bonita Papers

  1. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Okay, I must be suffering from a form of...something...because I seem to be the only person on the forums who sees that the large bruise on the left front neck was caused by the cord. I have written about this so many times, and no one ever responds, but then it always comes back up as this bruise was caused by anything but that cord. So I must be just wrong.

    Fr Brown, or anyone (if you are able to look at the graphic autopsy photos), could you look at this group of photos and give me your opinion? Since no one ever responds, I don't know if they're just too polite to say KK you're wack or what.

    I did a crude line-drawing on an autopsy photo to demonstrate what I see. WARNING: these are autopsy photos!
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...958#post186958

    Thanks in advance.
    I found another photo of the bruise which shows a better view. It is obviously on the left side of her neck. Spitz is quoted, but only about the face abrasion: http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-thebody.htm

    I remember an article with Spitz standing over a skull with a flashlight in his hand. I'll keep trying to find it.

  2. #86

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    Re: the neck abrasion. I found the following in JonBenet. Here Thomas is talking about Dr. Spitz's report:

    "First there had been manual strangulation, by twisting the collar of the shirt, with the perpetrator's knuckles causing the neck abrasion."

    It seems like the perpetrator could have grabbed the neck of the turtleneck just as well.

  3. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    Re: the neck abrasion. I found the following in JonBenet. Here Thomas is talking about Dr. Spitz's report:

    "First there had been manual strangulation, by twisting the collar of the shirt, with the perpetrator's knuckles causing the neck abrasion."

    It seems like the perpetrator could have grabbed the neck of the turtleneck just as well.
    It's just my opinion, but I think Dr. Spitz was simply guessing and he was wrong.

    I feel this way because the bruise has a well-defined pattern that is consistent with the flat cord mechanically rolling up the neck as it was tightened against the skin and bony cartilage making up the structure of the neck. Knuckles aren't flat and wouldn't make such a flat, even pattern of bruising, I don't think.

    But it is just my non-expert opinion. Even I find it amazing that I have studied this topic enough by now to have the chutzpah to dismiss the opinion of an expert like Dr. Spitz on this, actually. Yet absent a trial, absent any finding of fact by a jury, any testimony under oath as to the science involved, or anyone to argue one way or the other under questioning by the court, I have found a lot of mistakes and guesses through the years by professionals/experts claiming to know the truth that have been proven untrue eventually. Lou Smit's "blue arc" is a very good example of that, among other misinformation he spread about the evidence.

    But thanks for your thoughts on this Fr Brown. I certainly can be wrong, and I do know that.

    I think the photo of Dr. Spitz with the flashlight and dummy is in our JB Case Library evidence files, under photos/miscellaneous? You can find a thread leading to the case library at the top of the JB public forum thread page, if you haven't found the photo elsewhere.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  4. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    It's just my opinion, but I think Dr. Spitz was simply guessing and he was wrong.

    I feel this way because the bruise has a well-defined pattern that is consistent with the flat cord mechanically rolling up the neck as it was tightened against the skin and bony cartilage making up the structure of the neck. Knuckles aren't flat and wouldn't make such a flat, even pattern of bruising, I don't think.

    But it is just my non-expert opinion. Even I find it amazing that I have studied this topic enough by now to have the chutzpah to dismiss the opinion of an expert like Dr. Spitz on this, actually. Yet absent a trial, absent any finding of fact by a jury, any testimony under oath as to the science involved, or anyone to argue one way or the other under questioning by the court, I have found a lot of mistakes and guesses through the years by professionals/experts claiming to know the truth that have been proven untrue eventually. Lou Smit's "blue arc" is a very good example of that, among other misinformation he spread about the evidence.

    But thanks for your thoughts on this Fr Brown. I certainly can be wrong, and I do know that.

    I think the photo of Dr. Spitz with the flashlight and dummy is in our JB Case Library evidence files, under photos/miscellaneous? You can find a thread leading to the case library at the top of the JB public forum thread page, if you haven't found the photo elsewhere.
    The pattern isn't that even, really. Inside the triangle, there's one oval area that's light and a larger area below that which doesn't (to my eye) have a well-defined shape, but is also lighter than the edges of the bruise.

    Spitz may also have other evidence which informed his interpretation which we haven't been told.

    (I wasn't so much interested in the photo of Spitz as the article which accompanied it. I think the quote from JonBenet pretty much covers his opinion of the bruise, though.)

  5. #89
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    I see no evidence of fingers having been wrapped around JB's neck anywhere. The red triangle abrasion is from blood pooling under pressure point and very common in ligature strangulation.
    The circumferential ligature furrow is just that- a furrow dug by the ligature. There is more than one circumferential mark, but NONE look like they were made by fingers. IMO.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  6. #90

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    Spitz isn't saying that hands were wrapped around JonBenet's neck. He says that the perpetrator grabbed the neck area of her garment and the knuckles of a closed fist dug into JonBenet's neck leaving the triangular mark.

    Wasn't the pressure from the ligature evenly spread across the front of JonBenet's neck? I don't think there was anything like a knot in the front.

  7. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    Spitz isn't saying that hands were wrapped around JonBenet's neck. He says that the perpetrator grabbed the neck area of her garment and the knuckles of a closed fist dug into JonBenet's neck leaving the triangular mark.

    Wasn't the pressure from the ligature evenly spread across the front of JonBenet's neck? I don't think there was anything like a knot in the front.
    There is no knot in the front, it is in the back of her neck, as we know. But try to imaging pulling a cord around someone's throat from the back. The strongest pressure is not at the KNOT- it is on the opposite side- where the cord presses INTO the throat as it is pulled from behind. Try an experiment on a rolled up towel. Tie a cord around it- tightly but not so tight that you can't pull it. Then, hold it so the knot faces you, pull HARD from the side that has the knot. You should see the towel "give" or crease on the opposite side.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  8. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    There is no knot in the front, it is in the back of her neck, as we know. But try to imaging pulling a cord around someone's throat from the back. The strongest pressure is not at the KNOT- it is on the opposite side- where the cord presses INTO the throat as it is pulled from behind. Try an experiment on a rolled up towel. Tie a cord around it- tightly but not so tight that you can't pull it. Then, hold it so the knot faces you, pull HARD from the side that has the knot. You should see the towel "give" or crease on the opposite side.
    Well, sure, but the pressure should be evenly distributed around the front of the neck, especially of an unconscious victim whose neck muscles are relaxed.

    I just looked at many textbook photographs of victims of ligature strangulation and I don't see anything similar to the large triangular mark on JonBenet's neck.

  9. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    Well, sure, but the pressure should be evenly distributed around the front of the neck, especially of an unconscious victim whose neck muscles are relaxed.

    I just looked at many textbook photographs of victims of ligature strangulation and I don't see anything similar to the large triangular mark on JonBenet's neck.
    I have seen comparison photos where the victims have exactly that same mark. Possibly they are posted on Websleuths, but I thought they were here, too.
    They used to be on ACR in the Ruthee's Murder Library section, but as Ruthee has been dead several years, they may no longer be there.
    However, in Post #21 here on the Evidence Files thread, AND in the quote by KK in your own post #85 the photo is similar to the ones on her site, but the mark is smaller. It is the photo on the left that has the dark mark under the ligature in the exact same place as the mark on JB. It is a smaller mark, but the same and in the same place nonetheless.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  10. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    I have seen comparison photos where the victims have exactly that same mark. Possibly they are posted on Websleuths, but I thought they were here, too.
    They used to be on ACR in the Ruthee's Murder Library section, but as Ruthee has been dead several years, they may no longer be there.
    However, in Post #21 here on the Evidence Files thread, AND in the quote by KK in your own post #85 the photo is similar to the ones on her site, but the mark is smaller. It is the photo on the left that has the dark mark under the ligature in the exact same place as the mark on JB. It is a smaller mark, but the same and in the same place nonetheless.
    Well, I'm not sure which one the Evidence Files thread is. It doesn't come up that way when I search for it.

    I clicked on the link in kk's post and the only ligature strangulation photo I saw did show a darker area on the left side of the neck, but the photo adjoining showed the ligature still in place and there was a knot over the darker area.

    I may be looking at the wrong photos.

    I'm not saying that Spitz is right. Obviously, I have no expertise in this area. I'm just trying to figure out what the argument is.

    I confess Spitz's interpretation has some appeal to me because if someone is pushing and pulling you around by your neck and shirt, you're going to be crying and yelling your head off and the person doing the pushing and shoving is probably going to be yelling too. That means that John put his head under the covers and went back to sleep, having heard it all before, no doubt. That would be something to be sorry for the next day.

  11. #95
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    I have also seen the photos that show a similar abrasion on strangulation victims. When you see the pictures on the same page it is very striking how similar they are. I don't remember where they are but I feel sure there is at least a link to them on this forum somewhere and I've seen it in the last 3 or 4 months somewhere. I will try to find them.

  12. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    Spitz isn't saying that hands were wrapped around JonBenet's neck. He says that the perpetrator grabbed the neck area of her garment and the knuckles of a closed fist dug into JonBenet's neck leaving the triangular mark.

    Wasn't the pressure from the ligature evenly spread across the front of JonBenet's neck? I don't think there was anything like a knot in the front.
    Well, that's the probem I have with the bruise, Fr. B. If that triangular bruise was caused by the ligature rolling up the neck, why only in the one place? kk wondered if it might be because JBR's head was turned to the right making the sternomastoid muscle prominent. My opinion means little but if I had to bet money, I'd say that bruise was caused by something other than the cord.



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