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  1. #1

    Default The bloody pillowcase

    So woke up this morning with some things firmed up in my head...stuff has to stew up there for some reason before I wake up with my thoughts clearer.

    I know I said this in a long post last week, but in the middle of so much else, want to clarify. So here's the core of it:

    If JonBenet had bled onto her pillowcase, as the '98 LE interview with Patsy indicates, and that pillowcase had been changed within a few days, as also indicated in that interview, that leads me to a conclusion.

    What I'm thinking is that only two places bled on JonBenet the night she was killed: her head, from the head blow; and from her vaginal wounds.

    So as usual, speculation has to be used since we don't have a trial with tested evidence proving anything. But going from that jump off:

    Logic tells me there would have been no reason to use the paintbrush in the basement to cover up prior molestation if she had actually been molested before the head blow--if it was done earlier that night, why do it again? But if the paintbrush was in fact inserted to cover up prior molestation or even in a sadistic sexual assault, that happened in the basement where the paintbrush was located in the paint tray.

    Therefore, it seems logical that if the blood on the pillowcase came from a vaginal wound, someone did that upstairs before she was taken to the basement, where the paintbrush was. So why use the paintbrush--or anything--to injure her vaginal tissues in the basement?

    So I don't think the blood came from a vaginal wound...at least not that night. Since the bed clothing had been changed recently, for the sake of argument let's say it wasn't from a sexual assault within the previous few days, either.

    That leaves the head wound. Blood from her nose. Patsy was asked if JonBenet had nose bleeds. Ah. That's the clue I'm looking for.

    We always ask about the skin not breaking on the scalp with such a terrible head blow. What if the pillow was put over her head and then the blow was delivered? That would account for her blood on the pillowcase, same as the blood-tinged mucous on her face and her upper right sleeve.

    Look at the location of the pillow on the bed in crime scene photos. It's at the foot of the bed, not at the top. Patsy was asked about that. I'm trying to remember what she said. Sorry, have to look it up later.

    But that's odd. Which is probably what Patsy said.

    This is the part that I'm sure about, though: if JonBenet was attacked anywhere besides the basement, felled by that terrible head injury, I don't believe Burke could have carried her through the house, down the basement stairs, laid her by the tray, picked her up and put her on a blanket in the cellar room. He wasn't quite 10, and she weighed 45 or so lbs. That's a lot for a thin boy his size.

    So Burke might have struck that blow for some reason. But if it was upstairs, if that's where the blood on the pillowcase originated, then an adult had to carry her down to the basement.

    Or course, an adult could have struck the head blow, as well.

    Does anyone have any argument as to that blood on the pillowcase and how it got there, or when? I really think this could be key to the sequence of events and where the attack began.

    I'm going to focus on JonBenet's bed. What do we know about the things on that bed? What did LE want to know about them? What did Patsy and John say? Time for some review.
    Last edited by koldkase; January 19, 2011, 6:00 pm at Wed Jan 19 18:00:39 UTC 2011.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  2. #2

    Default

    Here are some relevant passages from the '98 DA interview with Patsy:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=9945


    2 THOMAS HANEY: Are there any other
    3 things in photo number 1 that you can identify,
    4 say on top of this trunk there is some blue
    5 clothing item. Light blue.
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
    7 RESPONSE.)
    8 THOMAS HANEY: Also at the foot of
    9 the bed, it's kind of hard to tell, it looks
    10 like --
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: I need my glasses.
    12 TRIP DeMUTH: You can also take
    13 that picture out of there. There is some glare
    14 from the plastic.?
    15 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like --
    16 this is like a pillow case or sheets or
    17 something. (INAUDIBLE.) It was kind of an
    18 (INAUDIBLE).
    19 THOMAS HANEY: Anything else that
    20 shows in that?
    21 Okay. How about number 2?
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, see, that's the
    23 pillow there.
    24 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
    25 PATSY RAMSEY: Her Christmas
    0243
    1 sweater.
    2 THOMAS HANEY: When is the last
    3 time she wore the Christmas sweater?
    4 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know
    5 exactly.
    6 THOMAS HANEY: Would that be where
    7 it would end up?
    8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    9 THOMAS HANEY: So not unusual?
    10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    11 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. And you're
    12 pointing in number 2 to this pink clothing item?
    13 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    14 THOMAS HANEY: Can you identify
    15 that?
    16 TRIP DeMUTH: You can see it better
    17 on photo 3.
    18 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, okay. That's
    19 the -- looks like a little pink pajama top, with
    20 long underwear.
    21 THOMAS HANEY: Was that part of a
    22 set of --
    23 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
    24 THOMAS HANEY: -- tops and bottoms?
    25 PATSY RAMSEY: Top and bottom,
    0244
    1 yeah.
    2 THOMAS HANEY: And that, does that
    3 appear to be one or the other?
    4 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks sort of
    5 like the top, because there is a little tag,
    6 might be at the neck, you know. It may be
    7 inside-out.
    8 THOMAS HANEY: And if you can, do
    9 you know when JonBenet would have last worn
    10 that?
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: I know she wore it,
    12 she had this on Christmas Day.
    13 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
    14 PATSY RAMSEY: You know, like when
    15 you get up for Santa Claus.
    16 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: That day.
    18 THOMAS HANEY: All right.
    19 PATSY RAMSEY: She did not wear it
    20 Christmas night, you know.
    21 THOMAS HANEY: So when you put her
    22 to bed, on Christmas night, do you recall, would
    23 that or could that have been in the bed?
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: It could have been
    25 under the pillow or something, you know.
    0245
    1 THOMAS HANEY: Was there a regular
    2 routine with dirty laundry or a hamper or toss
    3 it out the door to the laundry area or --
    4 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.) No.
    5 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. So it
    6 wouldn't be unusual for it --
    7 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it was
    8 definitely under the pillow, right.
    9 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, if we can go
    10 back to photo number of 2 so we don't jump too
    11 far ahead. It looks like there is a bedspread,
    12 I guess it's kind of a light --
    13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Mumbling.)
    14 THOMAS HANEY: Whatever color that
    15 is. It appears to be covering about half, maybe
    16 a little bit more than half, fairly well
    17 distributed as far as hanging over the bed down
    18 to the --
    19 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    20 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. It doesn't
    21 appear that if there had been a blanket under
    22 that or anything, that anything was pulled out
    23 from --
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, I see what you
    25 mean. Uh-hum.
    0246
    1 (Witness mumbling into hand.)
    2 (INAUDIBLE.)
    3 TRIP DeMUTH: How was her blanket
    4 on the bed?
    5 PATSY RAMSEY: Normally it was made
    6 and it would be the fitted sheet and there was
    7 usually a top sheet. Kind of a bed sheet, you
    8 know.
    9 TRIP DeMUTH: Pointing to photo 3.
    10 PATSY RAMSEY: There was a top
    11 sheet and then there was her blanket, this
    12 cotton blanket.
    13 THOMAS HANEY: And could you
    14 describe that?
    15 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it was kind
    16 of whitish, loose weave, you know. Kind of
    17 crocheted looking sort of, and that would have
    18 been, you know, all that stuff tucked in under
    19 the bed and then this is a comforter that just
    20 lays on top. You know. Hangs down to the --
    21 just over the dust ruffle.
    22 THOMAS HANEY: So that lighter
    23 blanket that you talked about would have been
    24 tucked in between the mattress and the box
    25 spring?
    0247
    1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum. Oh, you
    2 mean -- you know how you make it, tuck it right
    3 here, you know.
    4 TRIP DeMUTH: Under the mattress?
    5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, right, so it
    6 doesn't pull out.
    7 TRIP DeMUTH: So the blanket would
    8 have been tucked all the way down to the foot of
    9 the bed.
    10 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct, under
    11 this, under that.
    12 TRIP DeMUTH: Then the bedspread
    13 looks like it's properly and evenly distributed
    14 at the foot of the bed?
    15 PATSY RAMSEY: You're right.
    16 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you see the
    17 blanket in there at all?
    18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No.
    19 TRIP DeMUTH: She didn't, the
    20 blanket never worked itself out and laid loose
    21 on top of the bed, did it?
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, sometimes.
    23 TRIP DeMUTH: You know, completely
    24 untucked, that's what I am asking. Do you know
    25 how JonBenet slept, if that was a normal
    0248
    1 practice or was it tucked in?
    2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, something
    3 that kind of heavy, you know, this was fairly
    4 heavy. It was -- it would be unlikely that it
    5 would be completely out, without being pulled
    6 out.
    7 TRIP DeMUTH: Without the bedspread
    8 being disturbed also?
    9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I would think.
    10 THOMAS HANEY: When you put
    11 JonBenet to bed on Christmas night, was that
    12 lightweight blanket in the bed?
    13 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
    14 can't say for sure.
    15 THOMAS HANEY: Take a second and go
    16 back to that routine that night of --
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, God. I can't
    18 remember exactly.
    19 THOMAS HANEY: But it should have
    20 been?
    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Should have been.
    22 THOMAS HANEY: Or would have been
    23 probably?
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably.
    25 TRIP DeMUTH: What about the pillow
    0249
    1 at the foot of the bed, is that --
    2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    3 THOMAS HANEY: Did she use a
    4 pillow? Some people do, some don't.
    5 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no, she did.
    6 TRIP DeMUTH: I mean the way the
    7 sweater is thrown at the foot of the bed is not
    8 unusual, right?
    9 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    10 TRIP DeMUTH: She would have done
    11 that?
    12 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    13 TRIP DeMUTH: Did she ever put her
    14 pillow at the foot of the bed, would that be
    15 usual or unusual?
    16 PATSY RAMSEY: That would be
    17 unusual.
    18 TRIP DeMUTH: What about the way
    19 that is generally made, did she make her bed?
    20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    21 TRIP DeMUTH: Was it usually in
    22 this condition, other than what you see with the
    23 pillow there?
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, an unmade
    25 bed is an unmade bed. I mean --
    0250
    1 TRIP DeMUTH: Nothing strikes you
    2 as being unusual about that, other than the
    3 blanket and the pillow?
    4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    So here is one of the crime scene photos being discussed:


    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    So woke up this morning with some things firmed up in my head...stuff has to stew up there for some reason before I wake up with my thoughts clearer.

    I know I said this in a long post last week, but in the middle of so much else, want to clarify. So here's the core of it:

    If JonBenet had bled onto her pillowcase, as the '98 LE interview with Patsy indicates, and that pillowcase had been changed within a few days, as also indicated in that interview, that leads me to a conclusion.

    What I'm thinking is that only two places bled on JonBenet the night she was killed: her head, from the head blow; and from her vaginal wounds.

    So as usual, speculation has to be used since we don't have a trial with tested evidence proving anything. But going from that jump off:

    Logic tells me there would have been no reason to use the paintbrush in the basement to cover up prior molestation if she had actually been molested before the head blow--if it was done earlier that night, why do it again? But if the paintbrush was in fact inserted to cover up prior molestation or even in a sadistic sexual assault, that happened in the basement where the paintbrush was located in the paint tray.

    Therefore, it seems logical that if the blood on the pillowcase came from a vaginal wound, someone did that upstairs before she was taken to the basement, where the paintbrush was. So why use the paintbrush--or anything--to injure her vaginal tissues in the basement?

    So I don't think the blood came from a vaginal wound...at least not that night. Since the bed clothing had been changed recently, for the sake of argument let's say it wasn't from a sexual assault within the previous few days, either.

    That leaves the head wound. Blood from her nose. Patsy was asked if JonBenet had nose bleeds. Ah. That's the clue I'm looking for.

    We always ask about the skin not breaking on the scalp with such a terrible head blow. What if the pillow was put over her head and then the blow was delivered? That would account for her blood on the pillowcase, same as the blood-tinged mucous on her face and her upper right sleeve.

    Look at the location of the pillow on the bed in crime scene photos. It's at the foot of the bed, not at the top. Patsy was asked about that. I'm trying to remember what she said. Sorry, have to look it up later.

    But that's odd. Which is probably what Patsy said.

    This is the part that I'm sure about, though: if JonBenet was attacked anywhere besides the basement, felled by that terrible head injury, I don't believe Burke could have carried her through the house, down the basement stairs, laid her by the tray, picked her up and put her on a blanket in the cellar room. He wasn't quite 10, and she weighed 45 or so lbs. That's a lot for a thin boy his size.

    So Burke might have struck that blow for some reason. But if it was upstairs, if that's where the blood on the pillowcase originated, then an adult had to carry her down to the basement.

    Or course, an adult could have struck the head blow, as well.

    Does anyone have any argument as to that blood on the pillowcase and how it got there, or when? I really think this could be key to the sequence of events and where the attack began.

    This ought to make for some good discussion. I don't suppose we know how much blood was on the pillow case? This is probably one of several reasons why ST theorized a bed wetting incident took place. It would make sense that a parent would place JBR in bed, if the head blow took place upstairs, for at least a while.

    Do we know what was on the carpet samples which were removed from her bed? Most likely blood?

    If so, who struck the blow? If BR struck the blow, then, it's most likely the parents heard the commotion and placed an unconscious JBR in the bed. If BR placed her there, they probably wouldn't have discovered her until that morning.

    So, it's most likely a parent(s) placed her in the bed, for a bit, while trying to figure out if she was alive or how to proceed with the situation.

  4. #4

    Default

    Here's a discrepancy that is strange, but I'm going to say that Patsy and John were asked in great detail about what JonBenet wore to the Whites' house on Dec. 25th, Christmas night, and LE also had photos of JB at that party. Here Patsy says she wore a "dress" to the Whites, and she specifically says on the 25th. When she's asked to specify, she ignores the question.

    I'm thinking either she meant Christmas EVE, as the Ramseys said they went to the Whites' house that night, as well, I believe, or she slipped up for some reason and all I have read and heard about what JB wore to the Whites on the 25th is wrong.

    My question that relates to the above passage and this one, as well: if Patsy wasn't hanging up velvet dresses and picking up dirty pants and underwear, how did that pink pj top JB had on Christmas morning get under that pillow? And where did those matching bottoms go? I don't think we have ever heard the answer to that.


    6 THOMAS HANEY: We will start with
    7 number 5. Can you just describe what you see in
    8 there?
    9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't
    10 recognize that little (INAUDIBLE) at all.
    11 THOMAS HANEY: Little red and white
    12 Santa, stuffed animal?
    13 PATSY RAMSEY: Um.
    14 THOMAS HANEY: Could it have been a
    15 recent gift?
    16 PATSY RAMSEY: I could see that,
    17 you all have that toy, if I could see that, I
    18 would know. That doesn't look --
    19 THOMAS HANEY: Did JonBenet have a
    20 lot of stuffed animals?
    21 PATSY RAMSEY: A lot of stuffed
    22 animals.
    23 THOMAS HANEY: So if --
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: But I knew 'em, knew
    25 'em.
    0254
    1 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Anything else
    2 on the bed?
    3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this looks
    4 like a little -- the little pot holder square
    5 she was making. This multi-colored thing here.
    6 This black thing I can't (INAUDIBLE). Oh,
    7 that's sort of looks like it might be the little
    8 velvet dress (INAUDIBLE). Little silver snaps.
    9 TRIP DeMUTH: When did she last
    10 wear that?
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: She wore that to the
    12 Whites on the 25th.
    13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The evening of
    14 the 25th?

    15 PATSY RAMSEY: This Santa Claus
    16 (INAUDIBLE). Where is that, did you all have
    17 that?
    18 THOMAS HANEY: I don't think we do,
    19 I don't know.
    20 TRIP DeMUTH: That could be
    21 probably -- I don't think that was (INAUDIBLE).
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: Boy.
    23 THOMAS HANEY: Did she have other
    24 stuffed animals that were, you know,
    25 particularly for the Christmas season, that were
    0255
    1 only out then, or were they out all the time?
    2 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
    3 RESPONSE.)
    4 THOMAS HANEY: And this bed, how
    5 often was that used?
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: Not very often. My
    7 mother would stay there when she was -- when
    8 (INAUDIBLE) you know.
    9 THOMAS HANEY: Would JonBenet on
    10 occasion use that one?
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: Occasionally. Like
    12 if Daphne spent the night or Gwen or somebody.
    13 TRIP DeMUTH: What's that white
    14 item you see in that picture 5? It's in front
    15 of the (INAUDIBLE).
    16 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't tell.
    17 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
    18 PATSY RAMSEY: Do you want me to
    19 write down what this stuff was, when you start
    20 taking pictures, you know?.
    21 THOMAS HANEY: Well, it was
    22 documented also on video and I believe there is
    23 a description of what's in each room. You know,
    24 sometimes those are a little more thorough and
    25 complete.
    0256
    1 PATSY RAMSEY: It might be, you
    2 know, sort of like that I would be able to tell
    3 what it is. Okay.
    4 THOMAS HANEY: That was 5. Let's
    5 go to 6. That's a little --
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
    7 RESPONSE.)
    8 THOMAS HANEY: And you're pointing
    9 to a black object on the floor underneath the --
    10 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) or
    11 something.
    12 THOMAS HANEY: Do you want to take
    13 this out?
    14 Can you just describe, Ms. Ramsey,
    15 what you see in number 6?
    16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, there is a
    17 little -- see a little thing on it and her
    18 trunk, something black on top of that. I don't
    19 know what that is. (Mumbling.) (INAUDIBLE.)
    20 THOMAS HANEY: Do you notice
    21 anything unusual in that photograph?
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, these little
    23 loopy things here I think are part of that pot
    24 holder thing that she got, you know, with the
    25 one you had --
    0257
    1 THOMAS HANEY: The one we saw in
    2 the earlier photograph?
    3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. (INAUDIBLE.)
    4 THOMAS HANEY: They also appear
    5 to -- possibly like hair ties?
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
    7 THOMAS HANEY: That could be?
    8 PATSY RAMSEY: These little --
    9 THOMAS HANEY: Right, the little
    10 circular things?
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    12 THOMAS HANEY: So and I think we do
    13 have another photo here a little bit later
    14 that's a little clearer, and we will talk about
    15 that, but is there anything else in number 6,
    16 would that accurately reflect the way the room
    17 was, at least that portion, on the night of the
    18 25th?
    19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
    The photo they are discussing in the above passage:


    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Here are some relevant passages from the '98 DA interview with Patsy:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=9945




    So here is one of the crime scene photos being discussed:


    As I look at this bed, it looks like a bed that no one just got out of. It looks like a bed that has weathered the ravages of a day where people were in and out of the room. If JBR was carried up to bed asleep and someone kidnapped her out of that bed, then, why is the pillow at the bottom of the bed lying on top of the comforter? I would expect the pillow to be at the head of the bed with the blanket pulled back aways. Doesn't look like a bed someone was just lifted out of...looks like a bed that weathered the chaos of a Christmas day...from this photo, I don't think she ever made the bed.....

  6. #6

    Default

    I know this is a lot of reading, or re-reading, so I'll make my point and then you can read as you like or not.

    If Patsy didn't put that pink pj top under the pillow after JB wore it Christmas Eve, who did? JonBenet? Was the bed even made?


    Here Haney is asking Patsy about the bed, the blanket and gown found in the basement, and how they got there:

    19 TOM HANEY: 145.
    20 PATSY RAMSEY: What is the pink thing?

    [I think she's looking at a photo of the bagged GOWN taken from THE BASEMENT ROOM]

    21 TOM HANEY: We have next up, we have some
    22 close-ups of the two items in 145, which is the white
    23 blanket and the paint can. So if we take -- and if we
    24 skip to the other numbered one and go to -- there is a
    25 black and white dated 11 February of '97, and this is a
    0382
    1 photo in, I believe, a plastic container still, would
    2 that be the blanket that was on the bed?
    3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
    4 TRIP DEMUTH: That is JonBenet's blanket on
    5 her bed in her bedroom?
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: I could say that, yes.
    7 TRIP DEMUTH: Looking at picture 145.
    8 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. What is this pink --
    9 what is that?

    10 TOM HANEY: We will show you a photo of that
    11 in just a second. Just want to get through some of
    12 these first of the blanket itself.
    13 PATSY RAMSEY: This looks a little --
    14 (inaudible).
    15 TRIP DEMUTH: This was sent to CES, so every
    16 piece of trace evidence that was ever collected by a
    17 lab, so all of that is going to be documented. Our
    18 main concern is that you believe this is JonBenet's
    19 blanket on her bed.
    20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
    21 TOM HANEY: This is the pink -- excuse me --
    22 the pink item that again is in a plastic bag where the
    23 photo was taken.
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: That is her (inaudible). Why
    25 was that there?
    0383
    1 TOM HANEY: What is it?
    2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.
    3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie
    4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you
    5 know?
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that
    7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear
    8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before
    9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little
    10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.
    11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those
    12 two nights she wore that.

    13 TOM HANEY: Where would this particular --
    14 well, let me back up.
    15 Does this item have some particular
    16 significance?
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No.
    18 TOM HANEY: How many nightgowns did she have?
    19 PATSY RAMSEY: A lot.
    20 TOM HANEY: Twenty, 30?
    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, 10 or so.
    22 TOM HANEY: Did this one have some particular
    23 significance?
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    25 TOM HANEY: Do you remember who gave it to
    0384
    1 her?
    2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    3 TOM HANEY: Do you remember whether you got
    4 it for her? Was it a gift.
    5 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, God, it might --
    6 TOM HANEY: Take some time because this is --
    7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Is this the only
    8 picture we have of this?
    9 TOM HANEY: Correct. The only one here
    10 today.
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm thinking of a Barbie
    12 nightgown that had a big face of Barbie.
    13 TRIP DEMUTH: It has a plastic over it, so
    14 there is some glare there. You see the plastic.
    15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah; right. What I'm saying,
    16 I'm -- I remember a Barbie nightgown with a picture,
    17 big picture of the head of Barbie on it. So I am not
    18 quite sure this is her -- you know, one that she had.
    19 TOM HANEY: Okay. You know, it appears --
    20 PATSY RAMSEY: That is a Barbie doll under
    21 there.
    22 TOM HANEY: It appears from the waist down
    23 you can see that much, but from the waist up, because
    24 of the plastic, there is a flash and the reflection
    25 that is washed out.
    0385
    1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. The nightgowns were
    2 kept in the bathroom, in her bathroom in the side
    3 drawer there. Her pajamas were there.
    4 TOM HANEY: All of them?
    5 PATSY RAMSEY: Unless they were in the dirty
    6 clothes.
    7 TOM HANEY: We talked earlier about a few
    8 things kind of thrown here or there.
    9 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Could have been, I
    10 guess.
    11 TOM HANEY: Do you remember her wearing it on
    12 the 23rd?
    13 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    14 TRIP DEMUTH: Which drawer, looking at photo
    15 18?
    16 PATSY RAMSEY: These.
    17 TRIP DEMUTH: This is her bathroom, her sink.
    18 Which drawer would the Barbie doll nightgown have been
    19 kept in?
    20 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably that one or the one
    21 below it.
    22 TRIP DEMUTH: The one that is opened or below
    23 it right there in photo 18?
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
    25 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
    0386
    1 TOM HANEY: We've heard at some point this
    2 was a particularly favorite nightgown. Did she have
    3 such a thing?
    4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, her favorite little
    5 pajamas were like -- was this one piece sort of Jeannie
    6 thing my mother had given her, kind of nylon; a little
    7 one piece thing. You stepped into it and put your arms
    8 out. Other than that, nothing special.
    9 TRIP DEMUTH: But would your sister, Pam,
    10 call this her travel nightgown for any reason? I could
    11 be wrong.
    12 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, like pageants did we
    13 take one?
    14 TRIP DEMUTH: Is there a reason she would say
    15 that?
    16 PATSY RAMSEY: I just don't remember making a
    17 big deal about taking one special nightgown to the
    18 pageants. I think more likely we took the little
    19 Jeannie pant thing because it would be -- if she had
    20 her hair in curlers, you could step into it instead of
    21 pulling it over your head. I don't know.
    22 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know where that was
    23 before Christmas?
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    25 TOM HANEY: It would not have been in the
    0387
    1 wine cellar?
    2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    3 TOM HANEY: On the 25th when you put JonBenet
    4 to bed, do you recall seeing this?
    5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    6 TOM HANEY: In the bed.
    7 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh.
    8 TOM HANEY: Do you recall the blanket that is
    9 in this previous --
    10 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't. I don't really.
    11 TOM HANEY: When you put her down, covered
    12 her up.
    13 PATSY RAMSEY: I know I covered her at least
    14 with the sheet, but I don't know that. We tend to get
    15 real warm, so, you know, you don't do a lot of tucking
    16 it in.
    17 TOM HANEY: Probably not the comforter?
    18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    19 TOM HANEY: But the cotton blanket, you know,
    20 I think those are pretty -- it is kind of like the ones
    21 in the hospital.
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: They are not real heavy;
    23 right.
    24 TOM HANEY: So would that --
    25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. It would not have been
    0388
    1 unusual to put the sheet and the blanket on her. I
    2 truly can't remember.
    3 TRIP DEMUTH: Patsy, why the long underwear?
    4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I remember I was digging
    5 around for something. I was trying to find the pink
    6 ones she wore the night before. I couldn't put my hand
    7 on them right quick. And so I went to these drawers
    8 looking for the pajamas, and she was just laying there,
    9 so I didn't want to raise her up and get everything off
    10 of her to put a long nightgown, so looking for pajamas
    11 bottoms to put on her. I couldn't find any, and the
    12 long underwear pants were in there drawer, so I got
    13 those.
    14 TRIP DEMUTH: Could you have left that drawer
    15 open yourself?
    16 PATSY RAMSEY: Possibly.
    17 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.

    18 TOM HANEY: Did you have a particular stuffed
    19 animal, blanket, toy, whatever, that she took to bed?
    20 PATSY RAMSEY: She had a kitten we called
    21 Sister Socks. It is a gray and white stuffed animal
    22 that she liked the best.
    23 TOM HANEY: Inseparable or she just liked --
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, not really inseparable,
    25 but she liked that pretty much all the time.
    0389
    1 TOM HANEY: Some kids can't go to bed --
    2 PATSY RAMSEY: No. She wasn't like that.
    3 TOM HANEY: Okay. Without something,
    4 somebody to talk to, somebody to keep them company.
    5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

    [Haney is still asking about the pink Barbie nightgown, I believe, next.]
    6 TOM HANEY: No, okay. Could this have been
    7 under the pillow? Would you have noticed anything like
    8 that?
    9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I didn't notice the pink
    10 shirt under there, you know, so, I just don't remember
    11 where that was or the last time she wore it.
    12 TOM HANEY: Or where she got it, from whom?
    13 PATSY RAMSEY: Can't remember.

    14 TOM HANEY: Okay. Say on birthdays the kids
    15 get a lot of presents, do you keep a list of who gets
    16 them what to make sure they send them a thank-you card
    17 or whatever?
    18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    19 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you think that is
    20 JonBenet's?
    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, see, that is the thing.
    22 If I could see it for real I would know.
    23 TRIP DEMUTH: You are not sure at this time?
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm not really sure, no. The
    25 one I'm thinking of had a big picture of Barbie on it,
    0390
    1 a face, a big face.
    2 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
    3 PATSY RAMSEY: But she had a lot of them, so
    4 you know, I just -- I just can't. If I could see it
    5 for real, you know, I could touch it and touch it, but
    6 look at it up close I might be able to.
    7 Regardless, it is totally out of place down
    8 there in the wine cellar.
    9 TOM HANEY: The last time you were in the
    10 wine cellar was Christmas Eve, Christmas day.
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably Christmas Eve
    12 bringing packages out.
    13 TOM HANEY: Would there have been any reason
    14 for you to go back in there on Christmas day or did you
    15 go back in there?
    16 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't believe I did.
    17 No.
    18 TOM HANEY: Okay. And on Christmas Eve, when
    19 you went in there --
    20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    21 TOM HANEY: -- this wasn't there?
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    23 TOM HANEY: How about the blanket?
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    So this is the pink top, and following that is the pink gown and white blanket in the cellar room:




    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    This ought to make for some good discussion. I don't suppose we know how much blood was on the pillow case? This is probably one of several reasons why ST theorized a bed wetting incident took place. It would make sense that a parent would place JBR in bed, if the head blow took place upstairs, for at least a while.

    Just reading that section in the '98 interview where Haney asked a lot about that pillowcase, including if Patsy saw stains on it that night, and if JB had nosebleeds:

    16 TOM HANEY: That is 73, 74, 75, and 76 now.
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
    18 TOM HANEY: That I couldn't tell you right at
    19 this moment. Do you remember any staining on that
    20 pillow the night you put her to bed?

    21 PATSY RAMSEY: No. It was dark in there, you
    22 know.
    What does that mean, "It was dark in there, you know..."? JonBenet had been with her all morning, afternoon, and evening. How would "stains" get on the pillowcase during that time? When did Patsy last look at the bed?

    Did she put the pj top under the pillowcase? She said the top, found on the bed later, had been under the pillow. If so, wouldn't she have seen stains on the pillowcase when she put it there? Or did JonBenet put it there? Make up her own bed? Clean up her own room? Pick up her own clothes? I doubt that.

    And where are the matching bottoms?

    So does this seem like Patsy did make up the bed that day?

    If there were no stains when Patsy last checked the bed and put the pj top under the pillow, and who else would have, how could stains get on the pillow from the time that top was put under it to the time she put JB to bed on Dec. 25th? Hello?

    Patsy's answer should have been, No, I'm sure there were no stains on it because I'd have noticed when I put the pjs under it; or, Not unless I missed seeing stains when I put the pjs under it that morning/afternoon/etc.

    So where would those stains have come from before JonBenet was "put to bed" that night?

    The pillow wouldn't seem to be a place for "wetting," in general, so it's blood stains, I'm thinking, without question, that Haney is talking about. Patsy was asked about nose bleeds, as well.

    Exactly when did Patsy think JB could have gotten blood on her pillowcase and Patsy wouldn't have known it? I don't think even Patsy imagined JonBenet wouldn't have mentioned a nose bleed or Patsy wouldn't have noticed her pageant beauty having blood on her face.

    I think I can deduce from Patsy's answer that she is implying the blood stains got on the pillowcase on Dec. 25th, after they came home and whatever happened, happened.

    So that's it: the blood on the pillowcase got there after they returned from the Whites' party that night. Patsy and John both say JonBenet was not awake when they went to bed, so they're admitting she bled on her bed from the attack that night.

    That's how I see it, anyway. What am I missing here?



    23 TOM HANEY: When you put her to bed did you
    24 turn on any lights that night, Christmas night.
    25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so. Maybe. I
    0426
    1 can't remember. I remember dressing her, her pajamas
    2 pants on her. It was dark. I didn't turn on the
    3 bright lights because I didn't want to wake her up.
    4 TOM HANEY: But back up. John had carried
    5 her up and put her on the bed, and then you took it
    6 from there?
    7 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    8 TOM HANEY: But you never turned on the
    9 light?
    10 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably turned one on in
    11 the bathroom looking for the pajamas. I would have
    12 been in there.
    13 TOM HANEY: How about this pillow, when is
    14 the last time in the daytime would you have some time
    15 on Christmas day gone in there to put away Christmas
    16 presents, to do anything?
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
    18 TOM HANEY: How often would say the pillow
    19 case would be changed?
    20 PATSY RAMSEY: At least once a week.
    21 TOM HANEY: Okay. How about the rest of the
    22 day, the bottom tucked in sheets.
    23 PATSY RAMSEY: At least once a week.
    24 TOM HANEY: Was there a particular day of the
    25 week that --
    0427
    1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
    2 TOM HANEY: Okay. I mean, some folks are
    3 pretty much on a schedule.
    4 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm pretty laid back.
    5 TOM HANEY: How about Linda?
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: I know she did it once a week.
    7 I don't know what day she did it.
    8 TOM HANEY: So this particular sheet could be
    9 on its last day of the seven or -- the holiday it could
    10 be --
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: Longer.
    12 TOM HANEY: Was she expected to come in that
    13 day?
    14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    15 TOM HANEY: 26th.
    16 PATSY RAMSEY: She was supposed to come in.
    17 She was going to come on Friday. Wednesday was
    18 Christmas, so she was off on Christmas. She came
    19 Monday, Wednesday and Friday. She was there Monday
    20 because she helped me get ready for the party.
    21 TOM HANEY: When you were getting ready for
    22 the party did she do the laundry?
    23 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. We were getting
    24 ready for the party, you know.
    25 TOM HANEY: Right.
    0428
    1 PATSY RAMSEY: Downstairs. She didn't come
    2 Wednesday because it was Christmas. She was going to
    3 come Friday after we had gone, and I left her a check
    4 because she (inaudible) cried she wanted money.
    5 TOM HANEY: But if she comes Monday,
    6 Wednesday and Friday, and obviously doesn't come
    7 because of Christmas on Wednesday, we have the sheets
    8 on at a minimum, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, so three
    9 days.
    10 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably.
    11 TOM HANEY: The maximum number going back.
    12 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe the next Friday.
    13 TOM HANEY: Or last Wednesday.
    14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    15 TRIP DEMUTH: Did JonBenet ever have nose
    16 bleeds at night?
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I remember.
    18 Sometimes she might pick her nose, maybe cause it to
    19 bleed, but she wouldn't have one of those, you know,
    20 dry, you know, to hold her head back kind of thing.

    21 TOM HANEY: How are we doing?
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know about you, but I
    23 am exhausted.
    24 TRIP DEMUTH: Can we go off the tape?
    25 (Whereupon, a break was taken and an off the record
    0429
    1 discussion about scheduling occurred.)
    What does she mean, not that she remembers? What mother wouldn't remember if her six year old had nosebleeds...especially a six year old who had been dead for a 18 months?

    But to answer your question, Learnin, this is the single reference I can remember ever seeing about blood on the pillowcase and JonBenet haveing nosebleeds. I missed it for years as significant, but it's crucial.

    Patsy is questioned for a very long time about the bed, the bedding, JB's bedclothes, the blanket, etc. As you can see from the excerpts I'm posting, it was important.

    The thing I wonder is if JonBenet had the pillow placed over her head and then the head blow was struck there, on the bed. I haven't really given this much thought, if any, through the years. It would explain why the scalp wasn't lacerated; we're always trying to figure that out, right?

    Why else would the pillow have been moved from the normal placement at the head of the bed? I'm not seeing where Patsy says she moved it during her "dressing for bed." She said it was unusual.

    If JonBenet had been found on the floor, for example, she might be placed on the bed, but why put the pillow under her head? If I had an unconscious child and instinctively put her on a softer surface like a bed, I'm not sure I'd have been thinking, oh, get her a pillow. I'd have been thinking, CALL FOR AN AMBULANCE!

    What do you think?

    Oh, edited to add a caveat, before I get my head handed to me: I think someone at one time was discussing a/this pillow being used to cushion the blow to the head. Can't remember who or where, so please ring my bell and tell me about it, and thanks in advance!
    Last edited by koldkase; January 20, 2011, 2:04 am at Thu Jan 20 2:04:04 UTC 2011.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #8

    Default

    Here is extensive questioning about JonBenet wetting the bed and the changing of the bedclothes, trying to pin down when they were last changed. Patsy is the only source we have about when the bedclothes were changed, unless Linda HP (maid) gave a specific answer to LE on that. I don't remember any source on that, but I could have forgotten or missed that.

    Patsy points out that JB was wearing the pink pj set on Christmas morning, so she must not have wet them since she slept in those Christmas night, Patsy said. We only have Patsy's word on that--unless John agreed, but that's two suspects, so even then it's not a sure bet. But I've never seen any source state where the bottoms to those pink pjs ever ended up. We've asked before, but never saw an answer.

    What we do know is that Patsy said she couldn't "find" them in the dark that night, so she put the longjohns on JB. The top half is on the bed. Bottoms--maybe they were wet? I don't think we know the answer.


    8 TOM HANEY: If she didn't go to the
    9 bathroom before she went to bed, was that a
    10 pretty good bet that she would wet?
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: Not necessarily.
    12 It would be higher likelihood.
    13 TOM HANEY: How about say on
    14 Christmas night, had been at the Whites for
    15 quite a while and then she falls asleep, and she
    16 goes right -- she is put right to bed?
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    18 TOM HANEY: Was there a good
    19 likelihood that she would have wet that night?
    20 PATSY RAMSEY: Possibly.
    21 TOM HANEY: Did anybody take her to
    22 the bathroom before putting her to bed?
    23 PATSY RAMSEY: No, she was sound
    24 asleep.
    25 TOM HANEY: Would she have gotten
    0567
    1 up herself and gone to the bathroom?
    2 PATSY RAMSEY: Possibly.
    3 TOM HANEY: Okay, you said she was
    4 getting better at not wetting, so I am assuming
    5 she is getting better at--
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
    7 TOM HANEY: -- taking care of that?
    8 Okay. If she got up as a result of that, would
    9 she stay up?
    10 PATSY RAMSEY: Not likely
    11 (INAUDIBLE) went back to bed.
    12 TOM HANEY: Do you recall if she
    13 wet the bed on Christmas Eve, to Christmas
    14 morning?
    15 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no, she did
    16 not.
    17 TOM HANEY: How about going back
    18 from then, from Christmas morning, do you recall
    19 when the last time she was wet? Because we
    20 talked yesterday about the changing of the
    21 linen, the sheets, and we couldn't really pin
    22 that down.
    23 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    24 TOM HANEY: Okay. But if there
    25 were several stains on there and we figured it
    0568
    1 was around, if the maximum a week since the
    2 linen was changed, would that indicate to you
    3 wetting more than once, or--
    4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that was
    5 (INAUDIBLE).
    6 TOM HANEY: Right we were looking
    7 at the pillow case, but we were also talking
    8 about all of the bedding and how often it got
    9 laundered and--
    10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that got
    11 changed once a week, unless she wet the bed and
    12 then of course it would be changed, you know.
    13 TOM HANEY: Did you check the bed
    14 on say Christmas day, morning?
    15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. (INAUDIBLE).
    16 TOM HANEY: Okay. But you
    17 distinctly remember going and checking on that?
    18 PATSY RAMSEY: Plus she had her
    19 pink pajamas on that she had put on the night
    20 before. If she had wet it would have been
    21 soaking wet and she wouldn't have had those on
    22 in the Christmas picture, so --
    23 TOM HANEY: Okay. If that's what
    24 she, and you say that's what she wore to bed the
    25 night before?
    0569
    1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
    2 TOM HANEY: Okay, all right. Did
    3 you ever discuss this with Dr. Buff, is that her
    4 pediatrician?
    5 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I
    6 remember.
    7 TOM HANEY: It just wasn't a
    8 concern?
    9 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

    10 TOM HANEY: Okay. Were the other
    11 children her age pretty much potty trained
    12 though?
    13 PATSY RAMSEY: The White children
    14 were.
    15 TOM HANEY: So this was not out of
    16 the ordinary, not unusual for you?
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    18 TOM HANEY: And you say you don't
    19 remember if you discussed it with the doctor
    20 or--
    21 PATSY RAMSEY: I really don't
    22 remember whether I did or not.
    23 TOM HANEY: Okay. So if it's in
    24 the medical records?
    25 PATSY RAMSEY: We would have
    0570
    1 discussed it.
    2 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you remember
    3 anybody suggesting any remedies, any devices,
    4 any anything to help train JonBenet on the bed
    5 wetting?
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I didn't
    7 consult a lot of people about it.
    8 TOM HANEY: Okay?
    9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
    10 TOM HANEY: Did you consult anybody
    11 about it?
    12 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I mean, I just
    13 didn't think it was, you know, I had gone
    14 through big children, they wet the bed, I mean
    15 just, it wasn't a big deal. I didn't --
    16 TOM HANEY: Okay?
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: I was not alarmed
    18 by it, at all.
    19 TOM HANEY: So it wasn't something
    20 that you might seek some advice about?
    21 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    22 TOM HANEY: And if you did, who
    23 would you have talked to about it?
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think I
    25 did.
    0571
    1 TOM HANEY: Okay. If you did, this
    2 type of a problem?
    3 PATSY RAMSEY: If I had thought it
    4 was a problem, I probably would have talked with
    5 her doctor about it, and I can't remember
    6 talking with him about it. So --
    7 TOM HANEY: Okay?
    8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think it
    9 was a problem.
    10 TOM HANEY: You didn't consider it
    11 one?
    12 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    13 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall
    14 like I say discussing it with anybody?
    15 PATSY RAMSEY: I just, I don't
    16 remember discussing it with anybody.
    17 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall
    18 talking to anybody about that as kind of a
    19 source of frustration or a little problem, this
    20 bed wetting?
    21 PATSY RAMSEY: You know, it just
    22 didn't seem like a problem to me. I have had
    23 problems. I had cancer, that's a problem. You
    24 know. It didn't seem to be a problem. So I
    25 can't really say that I -- that it was on my
    0572
    1 mind to discuss with anybody.
    2 TOM HANEY: Okay. But it doesn't
    3 have to be a problem to discuss something with
    4 somebody, right?
    5 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember
    6 ever discussing it with anybody, including her
    7 doctor.
    8 TOM HANEY: Okay.
    9 PATSY RAMSEY: So -- you know, if
    10 she wet the bed, if she had an accident, I take
    11 the sheets off, throw them in the laundry, you
    12 know. Que sera, sera.
    Last edited by koldkase; January 19, 2011, 7:35 pm at Wed Jan 19 19:35:44 UTC 2011.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post

    Do we know what was on the carpet samples which were removed from her bed? Most likely blood?

    If so, who struck the blow? If BR struck the blow, then, it's most likely the parents heard the commotion and placed an unconscious JBR in the bed. If BR placed her there, they probably wouldn't have discovered her until that morning.

    So, it's most likely a parent(s) placed her in the bed, for a bit, while trying to figure out if she was alive or how to proceed with the situation.
    Honestly, I'm having trouble with this rearranged info.

    Here is what was said about the carpet stain in JB's room in the '98 interview:

    11 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. I have one
    12 more on this one, Tom.
    13 There is a stain here on the
    14 carpet. Do you know what was spilled there or
    15 what that is? Do you remember a stain on the
    16 carpet in that area?
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I remember I
    18 spilled red (INAUDIBLE) there one time and that
    19 was (INAUDIBLE). (Whispering into photographs.)
    20 No.
    21 THOMAS HANEY: Anything else before
    22 we go on, or do you want to look at these 1
    23 through 4 any more? We can come back to them
    24 also.
    25 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
    0253
    1 When were these taken?
    2 THOMAS HANEY: These photos were
    3 taken the morning of the 26th.
    4 TRIP DeMUTH: It was before
    5 JonBenet was found.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    As I look at this bed, it looks like a bed that no one just got out of. It looks like a bed that has weathered the ravages of a day where people were in and out of the room. If JBR was carried up to bed asleep and someone kidnapped her out of that bed, then, why is the pillow at the bottom of the bed lying on top of the comforter? I would expect the pillow to be at the head of the bed with the blanket pulled back aways. Doesn't look like a bed someone was just lifted out of...looks like a bed that weathered the chaos of a Christmas day...from this photo, I don't think she ever made the bed.....
    That's the question I'm looking for an answer to now. Patsy said she ran ahead of John to "turn down the bed" in one version of her story. But I can't remember if she ever said she actually made the bed that day. She doesn't seem like the bed-making kind, to me, but I'll keep looking.

    I still have to ask: if she made the bed, why didn't she know JB's pink pj top was under the pillow? If she didn't make the bed, who put the pj top under the pillow, where Patsy said it surely was?

    It doesn't make sense.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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    I feel there had to be bleeding from the vagina. For one, the coroner found blood and semi-fluid blood in her vagina. And also, there was trace evidence of JB's blood on her thighs and pubic area, as well as the dark fibers that led the coroner to state that she had been wiped down with a cloth.
    There was also probably some blood that oozed from her nose with the head blow- the coroner found tan mucus there. Blood that has been exposed to air turns brownish, and I can envision this being mixed with the normal mucus found in the nose and mouth and appearing tan. We know that she had a closed-scalp head injury. No open wound. Any blood from the head bash had to have been blood from her nose, ears, mouth or all 3. But I'm betting nose, because there were some leading question from LE about whether JB ever had nosebleeds (Patsy said no).
    So to me, the vaginal bleeding is definite, regardless of whether she was jabbed with the paintbrush or not. And the original injury happened when she was alive, because the dead don't bleed.

    I'd like to know more about the blood in her vagina. The semi-fluid blood- was it semi-fluid because it was postmortem bleeding? Maybe from the paintbrush staging? Or was it pre-death injury and began to "gel" by the time the coroner saw it?
    I also want to know if he ever actually tested the mucus in her mouth and nose. We know swabs were taken of those areas (and hopefully the ears as well, another place you'd bleed from after a head injury like that). I have never seen any results of those swab tests. I'd like to know if that "tan mucus" actually contained blood.
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    That's the question I'm looking for an answer to now. Patsy said she ran ahead of John to "turn down the bed" in one version of her story. But I can't remember if she ever said she actually made the bed that day. She doesn't seem like the bed-making kind, to me, but I'll keep looking.

    I still have to ask: if she made the bed, why didn't she know JB's pink pj top was under the pillow? If she didn't make the bed, who put the pj top under the pillow, where Patsy said it surely was?

    It doesn't make sense.
    I don't think she made the bed. LHP always made the bed because she was the one who put the clean sheets on the bed when she came. I don't think Patsy made the bed when LHP wasn't there. This was Christmas morning, very early. The kids got up early- presents were opened, breakfast eaten, and then JR went to the airport to work on the plane; Patsy and the kids stayed at the house. Patsy likely had tons of stuff to do to get ready for the back-to-back trips, and then the whole family had to get ready to go to the White's for early dinner at 4. In my mind, making JB's bed was the last thing on Patsy's mind that day. It'd be late enough for the kids to go right to bed when they got home, and then up early again for the trip. LHP was coming after they left for the trip, and she'd have made all the beds then.
    I also have to say that keeping PJs under a pillow is pretty common for kids (though my own never did it). The pillow was pulled away from the headboard a bit, as you can see in the photo. And to me, this kind of appearance indicates Patsy did pull the pillow away to look for the pajamas. The more I look at it, the pink of the pajama top seems to be the same color pink and the same kind of fabric.
    This case is so ....vexing.
    Last edited by DeeDee; January 19, 2011, 8:33 pm at Wed Jan 19 20:33:20 UTC 2011.
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