The bloody pillowcase

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Jan 19, 2011.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    So woke up this morning with some things firmed up in my head...stuff has to stew up there for some reason before I wake up with my thoughts clearer.

    I know I said this in a long post last week, but in the middle of so much else, want to clarify. So here's the core of it:

    If JonBenet had bled onto her pillowcase, as the '98 LE interview with Patsy indicates, and that pillowcase had been changed within a few days, as also indicated in that interview, that leads me to a conclusion.

    What I'm thinking is that only two places bled on JonBenet the night she was killed: her head, from the head blow; and from her vaginal wounds.

    So as usual, speculation has to be used since we don't have a trial with tested evidence proving anything. But going from that jump off:

    Logic tells me there would have been no reason to use the paintbrush in the basement to cover up prior molestation if she had actually been molested before the head blow--if it was done earlier that night, why do it again? But if the paintbrush was in fact inserted to cover up prior molestation or even in a sadistic sexual assault, that happened in the basement where the paintbrush was located in the paint tray.

    Therefore, it seems logical that if the blood on the pillowcase came from a vaginal wound, someone did that upstairs before she was taken to the basement, where the paintbrush was. So why use the paintbrush--or anything--to injure her vaginal tissues in the basement?

    So I don't think the blood came from a vaginal wound...at least not that night. Since the bed clothing had been changed recently, for the sake of argument let's say it wasn't from a sexual assault within the previous few days, either.

    That leaves the head wound. Blood from her nose. Patsy was asked if JonBenet had nose bleeds. Ah. That's the clue I'm looking for.

    We always ask about the skin not breaking on the scalp with such a terrible head blow. What if the pillow was put over her head and then the blow was delivered? That would account for her blood on the pillowcase, same as the blood-tinged mucous on her face and her upper right sleeve.

    Look at the location of the pillow on the bed in crime scene photos. It's at the foot of the bed, not at the top. Patsy was asked about that. I'm trying to remember what she said. Sorry, have to look it up later.

    But that's odd. Which is probably what Patsy said.

    This is the part that I'm sure about, though: if JonBenet was attacked anywhere besides the basement, felled by that terrible head injury, I don't believe Burke could have carried her through the house, down the basement stairs, laid her by the tray, picked her up and put her on a blanket in the cellar room. He wasn't quite 10, and she weighed 45 or so lbs. That's a lot for a thin boy his size.

    So Burke might have struck that blow for some reason. But if it was upstairs, if that's where the blood on the pillowcase originated, then an adult had to carry her down to the basement.

    Or course, an adult could have struck the head blow, as well.

    Does anyone have any argument as to that blood on the pillowcase and how it got there, or when? I really think this could be key to the sequence of events and where the attack began.

    I'm going to focus on JonBenet's bed. What do we know about the things on that bed? What did LE want to know about them? What did Patsy and John say? Time for some review.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Here are some relevant passages from the '98 DA interview with Patsy:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9945


    So here is one of the crime scene photos being discussed:

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Learnin

    Learnin Member


    This ought to make for some good discussion. I don't suppose we know how much blood was on the pillow case? This is probably one of several reasons why ST theorized a bed wetting incident took place. It would make sense that a parent would place JBR in bed, if the head blow took place upstairs, for at least a while.

    Do we know what was on the carpet samples which were removed from her bed? Most likely blood?

    If so, who struck the blow? If BR struck the blow, then, it's most likely the parents heard the commotion and placed an unconscious JBR in the bed. If BR placed her there, they probably wouldn't have discovered her until that morning.

    So, it's most likely a parent(s) placed her in the bed, for a bit, while trying to figure out if she was alive or how to proceed with the situation.
     
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Here's a discrepancy that is strange, but I'm going to say that Patsy and John were asked in great detail about what JonBenet wore to the Whites' house on Dec. 25th, Christmas night, and LE also had photos of JB at that party. Here Patsy says she wore a "dress" to the Whites, and she specifically says on the 25th. When she's asked to specify, she ignores the question.

    I'm thinking either she meant Christmas EVE, as the Ramseys said they went to the Whites' house that night, as well, I believe, or she slipped up for some reason and all I have read and heard about what JB wore to the Whites on the 25th is wrong. :wtf:

    My question that relates to the above passage and this one, as well: if Patsy wasn't hanging up velvet dresses and picking up dirty pants and underwear, how did that pink pj top JB had on Christmas morning get under that pillow? And where did those matching bottoms go? I don't think we have ever heard the answer to that.


    The photo they are discussing in the above passage:

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Learnin

    Learnin Member


    As I look at this bed, it looks like a bed that no one just got out of. It looks like a bed that has weathered the ravages of a day where people were in and out of the room. If JBR was carried up to bed asleep and someone kidnapped her out of that bed, then, why is the pillow at the bottom of the bed lying on top of the comforter? I would expect the pillow to be at the head of the bed with the blanket pulled back aways. Doesn't look like a bed someone was just lifted out of...looks like a bed that weathered the chaos of a Christmas day...from this photo, I don't think she ever made the bed.....
     
  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I know this is a lot of reading, or re-reading, so I'll make my point and then you can read as you like or not.

    If Patsy didn't put that pink pj top under the pillow after JB wore it Christmas Eve, who did? JonBenet? Was the bed even made?


    Here Haney is asking Patsy about the bed, the blanket and gown found in the basement, and how they got there:

    So this is the pink top, and following that is the pink gown and white blanket in the cellar room:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    Just reading that section in the '98 interview where Haney asked a lot about that pillowcase, including if Patsy saw stains on it that night, and if JB had nosebleeds:

    What does that mean, "It was dark in there, you know..."? JonBenet had been with her all morning, afternoon, and evening. How would "stains" get on the pillowcase during that time? When did Patsy last look at the bed?

    Did she put the pj top under the pillowcase? She said the top, found on the bed later, had been under the pillow. If so, wouldn't she have seen stains on the pillowcase when she put it there? Or did JonBenet put it there? Make up her own bed? Clean up her own room? Pick up her own clothes? I doubt that.

    And where are the matching bottoms?

    So does this seem like Patsy did make up the bed that day?

    If there were no stains when Patsy last checked the bed and put the pj top under the pillow, and who else would have, how could stains get on the pillow from the time that top was put under it to the time she put JB to bed on Dec. 25th? Hello?

    Patsy's answer should have been, No, I'm sure there were no stains on it because I'd have noticed when I put the pjs under it; or, Not unless I missed seeing stains when I put the pjs under it that morning/afternoon/etc.

    So where would those stains have come from before JonBenet was "put to bed" that night?

    The pillow wouldn't seem to be a place for "wetting," in general, so it's blood stains, I'm thinking, without question, that Haney is talking about. Patsy was asked about nose bleeds, as well.

    Exactly when did Patsy think JB could have gotten blood on her pillowcase and Patsy wouldn't have known it? I don't think even Patsy imagined JonBenet wouldn't have mentioned a nose bleed or Patsy wouldn't have noticed her pageant beauty having blood on her face.

    I think I can deduce from Patsy's answer that she is implying the blood stains got on the pillowcase on Dec. 25th, after they came home and whatever happened, happened.

    So that's it: the blood on the pillowcase got there after they returned from the Whites' party that night. Patsy and John both say JonBenet was not awake when they went to bed, so they're admitting she bled on her bed from the attack that night.

    That's how I see it, anyway. What am I missing here?



    What does she mean, not that she remembers? What mother wouldn't remember if her six year old had nosebleeds...especially a six year old who had been dead for a 18 months?

    But to answer your question, Learnin, this is the single reference I can remember ever seeing about blood on the pillowcase and JonBenet haveing nosebleeds. I missed it for years as significant, but it's crucial.

    Patsy is questioned for a very long time about the bed, the bedding, JB's bedclothes, the blanket, etc. As you can see from the excerpts I'm posting, it was important.

    The thing I wonder is if JonBenet had the pillow placed over her head and then the head blow was struck there, on the bed. I haven't really given this much thought, if any, through the years. It would explain why the scalp wasn't lacerated; we're always trying to figure that out, right?

    Why else would the pillow have been moved from the normal placement at the head of the bed? I'm not seeing where Patsy says she moved it during her "dressing for bed." She said it was unusual.

    If JonBenet had been found on the floor, for example, she might be placed on the bed, but why put the pillow under her head? If I had an unconscious child and instinctively put her on a softer surface like a bed, I'm not sure I'd have been thinking, oh, get her a pillow. I'd have been thinking, CALL FOR AN AMBULANCE!

    What do you think?

    Oh, edited to add a caveat, before I get my head handed to me: I think someone at one time was discussing a/this pillow being used to cushion the blow to the head. Can't remember who or where, so please ring my bell and tell me about it, and thanks in advance! :winko:
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Here is extensive questioning about JonBenet wetting the bed and the changing of the bedclothes, trying to pin down when they were last changed. Patsy is the only source we have about when the bedclothes were changed, unless Linda HP (maid) gave a specific answer to LE on that. I don't remember any source on that, but I could have forgotten or missed that.

    Patsy points out that JB was wearing the pink pj set on Christmas morning, so she must not have wet them since she slept in those Christmas night, Patsy said. We only have Patsy's word on that--unless John agreed, but that's two suspects, so even then it's not a sure bet. But I've never seen any source state where the bottoms to those pink pjs ever ended up. We've asked before, but never saw an answer.

    What we do know is that Patsy said she couldn't "find" them in the dark that night, so she put the longjohns on JB. The top half is on the bed. Bottoms--maybe they were wet? I don't think we know the answer.


     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
  9. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Honestly, I'm having trouble with this rearranged info.

    Here is what was said about the carpet stain in JB's room in the '98 interview:

     
  10. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    That's the question I'm looking for an answer to now. Patsy said she ran ahead of John to "turn down the bed" in one version of her story. But I can't remember if she ever said she actually made the bed that day. She doesn't seem like the bed-making kind, to me, but I'll keep looking.

    I still have to ask: if she made the bed, why didn't she know JB's pink pj top was under the pillow? If she didn't make the bed, who put the pj top under the pillow, where Patsy said it surely was?

    It doesn't make sense.
     
  11. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I feel there had to be bleeding from the vagina. For one, the coroner found blood and semi-fluid blood in her vagina. And also, there was trace evidence of JB's blood on her thighs and pubic area, as well as the dark fibers that led the coroner to state that she had been wiped down with a cloth.
    There was also probably some blood that oozed from her nose with the head blow- the coroner found tan mucus there. Blood that has been exposed to air turns brownish, and I can envision this being mixed with the normal mucus found in the nose and mouth and appearing tan. We know that she had a closed-scalp head injury. No open wound. Any blood from the head bash had to have been blood from her nose, ears, mouth or all 3. But I'm betting nose, because there were some leading question from LE about whether JB ever had nosebleeds (Patsy said no).
    So to me, the vaginal bleeding is definite, regardless of whether she was jabbed with the paintbrush or not. And the original injury happened when she was alive, because the dead don't bleed.

    I'd like to know more about the blood in her vagina. The semi-fluid blood- was it semi-fluid because it was postmortem bleeding? Maybe from the paintbrush staging? Or was it pre-death injury and began to "gel" by the time the coroner saw it?
    I also want to know if he ever actually tested the mucus in her mouth and nose. We know swabs were taken of those areas (and hopefully the ears as well, another place you'd bleed from after a head injury like that). I have never seen any results of those swab tests. I'd like to know if that "tan mucus" actually contained blood.
     
  12. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I don't think she made the bed. LHP always made the bed because she was the one who put the clean sheets on the bed when she came. I don't think Patsy made the bed when LHP wasn't there. This was Christmas morning, very early. The kids got up early- presents were opened, breakfast eaten, and then JR went to the airport to work on the plane; Patsy and the kids stayed at the house. Patsy likely had tons of stuff to do to get ready for the back-to-back trips, and then the whole family had to get ready to go to the White's for early dinner at 4. In my mind, making JB's bed was the last thing on Patsy's mind that day. It'd be late enough for the kids to go right to bed when they got home, and then up early again for the trip. LHP was coming after they left for the trip, and she'd have made all the beds then.
    I also have to say that keeping PJs under a pillow is pretty common for kids (though my own never did it). The pillow was pulled away from the headboard a bit, as you can see in the photo. And to me, this kind of appearance indicates Patsy did pull the pillow away to look for the pajamas. The more I look at it, the pink of the pajama top seems to be the same color pink and the same kind of fabric.
    This case is so ....vexing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
  13. Karen

    Karen Member

    I thought she/he meant "made it to the bed" that night. That is what I have always thought also. She never slept there Christmas night.
    Also, I read that Jonbenet slept in Burkes room on Christmas Eve per Patsy in one of her interviews. Then why would Patsy say she went in on Christmas morning to check JB's bed to see if it was wet and she also pointed out JB was wearing the same pink pj's she went to bed with on Christmas Eve and she wouldn't be wearing them if they were wet? Why go in and check Jonebnets bed the next morning when it was supposedly preplanned and carried out that Jonbenet was sleeping in Burkes room? I would think it more likely that Patsy would go in and check the bed in Burkes room she slept in.
     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Okay, I think I figured out the "velvet dress" mystery: in the '97 LE interview with Patsy, she said JB wore velvet pants and a VELVET VEST. I think the transcriber in the '98 DA interview with Pasty misheard VELVET DRESS.

    This happens often in these transcripts, even in courtroom transcripts. So glad I figured this out for myself because these discrepancies drive me crazy. There's only like THOUSANDS in this case.... :banghead:

    From the '97 interview:

    From the '98 DA interview:

    So now I know what that "black thing" is on the bed next to the one JB used to sleep on.

    So, did we ever hear where the black velvet pants went to? Totally have no recollection of that, either. Is that what is on the trunk at the bottom of JB's bed? Looks like it:

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Forgive me, kk, but I'm getting denser the older I get. I need to get this bed situation down correctly.

    On the bed, I see a pink item at the head of the bed. Is this the pink pajama top that JBR had on Christmas morning?

    Then I see the pillow at the foot of the bed. Is there a pink item under that pillow or, when Patsy speaks of the pink top under the pillow, is she referring to that pink top that is at the top of the bed where the pillow should be? Or is she referring to another item that is under the pillow at the foot of the bed?

    The reason I ask is: Is she claiming that she put that pink top under the pillow that night when it was at the head of the bed, when she put JBR to bed? Or did she put JBR to bed without the pillow and the pillow remained at the foot of the bed?

    When was the pillow moved? If Patsy put JBR to bed with the pillow under her head, then, the perpetrator had to move the pillow (and why would he do that?) or she was never put to bed and that pillow

    I don't think she was in the bed that night. She probably slept in Burke's room Christmas eve (Patsy mentioned she talked about it).

    I'm inclined to think the pillow wasn't used to soften the head blow or that she was laying on the mattress when it was struck because I don't believe it would have depressed the skull with that much give and padding. Just my opinion, could be wrong.
     
  16. Karen

    Karen Member

    I don't think that bed was slept in since the 23rd. I must be on everybodys ignore list.:poke: I been good, really I have!:angel:
     
  17. Karen

    Karen Member

    ITA. It seems she had trouble hearing a lot of what Patsy said due to all the "inaudibles." It's frustrating because what Patsy says could be vitally important, but we read "inaudible."
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
  18. Karen

    Karen Member

    ITA. So if that is true the bloody pillowcase happened on the 23rd right? The night of the Christmas party.
    That multicolered sweater on JB's bed could have been the sweater Arianna wore at the Christmas party? Even though Patsy said it was Jonbenets sweater why couldn't Arianna have changed in JB's room and left it there? I don't believe what Patsy says about this, although I don't know what it could possibly have to do with the crime. Unless the bloody pillowcase had something to do with it. I dunno, I'm lost. Just thinking out loud.
     
  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Good point about the pillow being used to cushion the blow or somehow ending up doing that. It was just a thought. I'm desperate to figure this out.

    I believe one reason we have so much trouble with getting things straight is because we've backed into so much info and evidence, from so many sources through the years, and stories changed so often, it's nearly impossible to keep score.

    The pillow was photographed at the foot of the bed. The pink top at the head of the bed was the top to the pjs Patsy said JonBenet slept in on Christmas Eve and was photographed in Christmas morning. How the pillow ended up at the foot of the bed, I can't find where anyone answered that question.

    But Patsy said it was odd in her '98 DA interview. Then she changed the topic. I can't find where she was asked in either '97 or '98 if she made the bed. So I have no idea. I agree it looks like the bed was haphazard, but beds do look that way when they've been slept in. We don't know if she slept in that bed at all Christmas night, just what the Ramseys say.

    Patsy told various ambiguous stories about whether JonBenet slept in Burke's bedroom: rarely, sometimes, not at all, and of course, she couldn't remember.

    I can't remember what is written about this in the books. By this time, I've forgotten so much from them, I need to read them all again. Like I need a hole in my head....

    From '97 LE interview with Patsy:

     
  20. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Now Karen, you KNOW I would NEVAH ignore you :computer: since you threw that last hissy fit! :whipit: Please, don't be mad. :wflag:

    I've been reading interview transcripts and pouring over photos and enlarging and trying to clarify items in them. I have been trying to work through responses, but I hit Learnin's first because I was actually reading something that pertained to his questions and thoughts, and it's a lot of work remembering what I just read when you're my age, doncha' know? :grandma: So I'd copy and paste and then start up again looking for something, thinking, I'll get back to DeeDee and Karen in a minute...and hours passed.

    So...let me get to them and then I'm out until tomorrow. :runaway:
     
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