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  1. #13

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    I thought she/he meant "made it to the bed" that night. That is what I have always thought also. She never slept there Christmas night.
    Also, I read that Jonbenet slept in Burkes room on Christmas Eve per Patsy in one of her interviews. Then why would Patsy say she went in on Christmas morning to check JB's bed to see if it was wet and she also pointed out JB was wearing the same pink pj's she went to bed with on Christmas Eve and she wouldn't be wearing them if they were wet? Why go in and check Jonebnets bed the next morning when it was supposedly preplanned and carried out that Jonbenet was sleeping in Burkes room? I would think it more likely that Patsy would go in and check the bed in Burkes room she slept in.

  2. #14

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    Okay, I think I figured out the "velvet dress" mystery: in the '97 LE interview with Patsy, she said JB wore velvet pants and a VELVET VEST. I think the transcriber in the '98 DA interview with Pasty misheard VELVET DRESS.

    This happens often in these transcripts, even in courtroom transcripts. So glad I figured this out for myself because these discrepancies drive me crazy. There's only like THOUSANDS in this case....

    From the '97 interview:

    TT: What color of top did she wear to bed that night? What color top was she ww3earing actually to the White’s house like?
    PR: Well she wore this little outfit that I had gotten her at the Gap. We had a little, little riff over that, cause I wanted her to wear, I was wearing a red sweater and I wanted her to wear this red sweater with her black velvet pant, cause I was wearing black velvet paths and it was Christmas and all that.
    TT: Um hum.
    PR: And she didn’t want to wear the red shirt just because I was wearing it. She wanted to wear the shirt that went with the outfit which was a Gap outfit that I had bought her when we went shopping for her and it was a little white, kind of neck like this, kind of a . . .
    TT: Kind of a crew neck?
    PR: . . .crew neck and it had a little, little rhinestone, little kind of sequin kind of star thing on it.
    TT: Okay.
    PR: So I just left that on her.
    TT: Okay. And I’m sorry. What kind of pants, what color of pants. . .
    PR: They were black velvet. Black velvet jeans, kind of like, from the Gap. Some little black velvet vest.
    From the '98 DA interview:

    0254
    1 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Anything else
    2 on the bed?
    3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this looks
    4 like a little -- the little pot holder square
    5 she was making. This multi-colored thing here.
    6 This black thing I can't (INAUDIBLE). Oh,
    7 that's sort of looks like it might be the little
    8 velvet dress
    (INAUDIBLE). Little silver snaps.
    9 TRIP DeMUTH: When did she last
    10 wear that?
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: She wore that to the
    12 Whites on the 25th.
    13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The evening of
    14 the 25th?
    So now I know what that "black thing" is on the bed next to the one JB used to sleep on.

    So, did we ever hear where the black velvet pants went to? Totally have no recollection of that, either. Is that what is on the trunk at the bottom of JB's bed? Looks like it:


    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
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  3. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Honestly, I'm having trouble with this rearranged info.

    Here is what was said about the carpet stain in JB's room in the '98 interview:
    Forgive me, kk, but I'm getting denser the older I get. I need to get this bed situation down correctly.

    On the bed, I see a pink item at the head of the bed. Is this the pink pajama top that JBR had on Christmas morning?

    Then I see the pillow at the foot of the bed. Is there a pink item under that pillow or, when Patsy speaks of the pink top under the pillow, is she referring to that pink top that is at the top of the bed where the pillow should be? Or is she referring to another item that is under the pillow at the foot of the bed?

    The reason I ask is: Is she claiming that she put that pink top under the pillow that night when it was at the head of the bed, when she put JBR to bed? Or did she put JBR to bed without the pillow and the pillow remained at the foot of the bed?

    When was the pillow moved? If Patsy put JBR to bed with the pillow under her head, then, the perpetrator had to move the pillow (and why would he do that?) or she was never put to bed and that pillow

    I don't think she was in the bed that night. She probably slept in Burke's room Christmas eve (Patsy mentioned she talked about it).

    I'm inclined to think the pillow wasn't used to soften the head blow or that she was laying on the mattress when it was struck because I don't believe it would have depressed the skull with that much give and padding. Just my opinion, could be wrong.

  4. #16

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    I don't think that bed was slept in since the 23rd. I must be on everybodys ignore list. I been good, really I have!

  5. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Okay, I think I figured out the "velvet dress" mystery: in the '97 LE interview with Patsy, she said JB wore velvet pants and a VELVET VEST. I think the transcriber in the '98 DA interview with Pasty misheard VELVET DRESS.This happens often in these transcripts, even in courtroom transcripts. So glad I figured this out for myself because these discrepancies drive me crazy. There's only like THOUSANDS in this case....

    From the '97 interview:



    From the '98 DA interview:



    So now I know what that "black thing" is on the bed next to the one JB used to sleep on.

    So, did we ever hear where the black velvet pants went to? Totally have no recollection of that, either. Is that what is on the trunk at the bottom of JB's bed? Looks like it:

    ITA. It seems she had trouble hearing a lot of what Patsy said due to all the "inaudibles." It's frustrating because what Patsy says could be vitally important, but we read "inaudible."
    Last edited by Karen; January 20, 2011, 4:57 am at Thu Jan 20 4:57:12 UTC 2011.

  6. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Forgive me, kk, but I'm getting denser the older I get. I need to get this bed situation down correctly.

    On the bed, I see a pink item at the head of the bed. Is this the pink pajama top that JBR had on Christmas morning?

    Then I see the pillow at the foot of the bed. Is there a pink item under that pillow or, when Patsy speaks of the pink top under the pillow, is she referring to that pink top that is at the top of the bed where the pillow should be? Or is she referring to another item that is under the pillow at the foot of the bed?

    The reason I ask is: Is she claiming that she put that pink top under the pillow that night when it was at the head of the bed, when she put JBR to bed? Or did she put JBR to bed without the pillow and the pillow remained at the foot of the bed?

    When was the pillow moved? If Patsy put JBR to bed with the pillow under her head, then, the perpetrator had to move the pillow (and why would he do that?) or she was never put to bed and that pillow

    I don't think she was in the bed that night. She probably slept in Burke's room Christmas eve (Patsy mentioned she talked about it).
    I'm inclined to think the pillow wasn't used to soften the head blow or that she was laying on the mattress when it was struck because I don't believe it would have depressed the skull with that much give and padding. Just my opinion, could be wrong.
    ITA. So if that is true the bloody pillowcase happened on the 23rd right? The night of the Christmas party.
    That multicolered sweater on JB's bed could have been the sweater Arianna wore at the Christmas party? Even though Patsy said it was Jonbenets sweater why couldn't Arianna have changed in JB's room and left it there? I don't believe what Patsy says about this, although I don't know what it could possibly have to do with the crime. Unless the bloody pillowcase had something to do with it. I dunno, I'm lost. Just thinking out loud.

  7. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Forgive me, kk, but I'm getting denser the older I get. I need to get this bed situation down correctly.

    On the bed, I see a pink item at the head of the bed. Is this the pink pajama top that JBR had on Christmas morning?

    Then I see the pillow at the foot of the bed. Is there a pink item under that pillow or, when Patsy speaks of the pink top under the pillow, is she referring to that pink top that is at the top of the bed where the pillow should be? Or is she referring to another item that is under the pillow at the foot of the bed?

    The reason I ask is: Is she claiming that she put that pink top under the pillow that night when it was at the head of the bed, when she put JBR to bed? Or did she put JBR to bed without the pillow and the pillow remained at the foot of the bed?

    When was the pillow moved? If Patsy put JBR to bed with the pillow under her head, then, the perpetrator had to move the pillow (and why would he do that?) or she was never put to bed and that pillow

    I don't think she was in the bed that night. She probably slept in Burke's room Christmas eve (Patsy mentioned she talked about it).

    I'm inclined to think the pillow wasn't used to soften the head blow or that she was laying on the mattress when it was struck because I don't believe it would have depressed the skull with that much give and padding. Just my opinion, could be wrong.
    Good point about the pillow being used to cushion the blow or somehow ending up doing that. It was just a thought. I'm desperate to figure this out.

    I believe one reason we have so much trouble with getting things straight is because we've backed into so much info and evidence, from so many sources through the years, and stories changed so often, it's nearly impossible to keep score.

    The pillow was photographed at the foot of the bed. The pink top at the head of the bed was the top to the pjs Patsy said JonBenet slept in on Christmas Eve and was photographed in Christmas morning. How the pillow ended up at the foot of the bed, I can't find where anyone answered that question.

    But Patsy said it was odd in her '98 DA interview. Then she changed the topic. I can't find where she was asked in either '97 or '98 if she made the bed. So I have no idea. I agree it looks like the bed was haphazard, but beds do look that way when they've been slept in. We don't know if she slept in that bed at all Christmas night, just what the Ramseys say.

    Patsy told various ambiguous stories about whether JonBenet slept in Burke's bedroom: rarely, sometimes, not at all, and of course, she couldn't remember.

    I can't remember what is written about this in the books. By this time, I've forgotten so much from them, I need to read them all again. Like I need a hole in my head....

    From '97 LE interview with Patsy:

    TT: Got a little of your tea left. Okay. Patsy, let’s move over to the uh, to the 24th. I want you to start kind of, actually let’s go more towards the afternoon of the 24th. That would be the 24th of Christmas Eve. The kids are all excited. Kind of run me through that in the same fashion. What did you guys do?
    PR: Well we um, uh went to church, the family church service which was at four or 4:30 . . .
    TT: Okay.
    PR: . . .something like that. And uh, after that we went to Pasta Jay’s for dinner. . .
    TT: Um hum.
    PR: And then we drove around town looking at Christmas lights and we drove up to the star up on the mountain there and um, I remember JonBenet was miffed because we wouldn’t let her get out and she wanted to walk up into the star . . .
    TT: Um hum.
    PR: And uh, she just had her little velvet Sunday school shoes on, you know, so she was, she said, ‘Well, what’s the use coming up here if you can’t even go up to the star.’ Um, so then we came down, down from the star and we wound around by the White’s house and uh, I think, and we went in there for a few minutes and uh, then we went home.
    TT: Okay.
    PR: And, you know, got everybody ready for bed.
    TT: Okay. About what time (inaudible).
    PR: Oh, gee, I don’t know.
    TT: Okay.
    PR: I don’t know exactly.
    TT: Okay. Um, go home, go to bed.
    PR: Early evening.
    TT: Okay. Early evening?
    PR: Um hum.
    TT: Go home, got ready for bed um, where did everybody sleep that night?
    PR: Well, JonBenet was in her bed in her room. . .
    TT: Okay.
    PR: . . .and Burke was in his bed and we slept in our room.
    TT: Okay. Do you have an idea if JonBenet moved over towards Burke’s room at all that night. Slept in his room?
    PR: Um, I can’t remember, can’t remember.
    TT: Okay. Is that something that she would normally do?
    PR: No.
    TT: Sleep in Burke’s room. I know everybody’s got, you got, they both have two beds in their rooms.
    PR: Yeah, right um, I don’t think so. I just can’t remember.

    [snip]

    ST: Do you recall on December 24th into the morning of December 25th, whether or not JonBenet slept in her bed or over in Burkes room?
    PR: I, I just don’t remember exactly, but it seems like she was in her bed, but I don’t remember exactly.
    ST: How about on the, uh, night of the 25th when you and John put her to bed, would it have been unlikely for her to have then moved to another location in the house to have slept, your bed or Burke’s room?
    PR: Yeah, it would have been unlikely.
    ST: Okay.
    PR: The reason I can’t remember whether they, where she slept on the 24th were, not cause it seemed like they were conspiring about what time they were going to get up in the morning and I can’t remember whether they, it seems like there, that she did, they did talk about her sleeping in his room, but I can’t remember whether that really happened or not, but I remember they were conspiring about what time to get up and . . .

    [snip]
    ST: Do you know which bed that Burke normally slept in, in his room. Was it the . . .
    PR: First one in, the . . .
    ST: Okay.
    PR: Right as you go in the door.
    ST: And if, on occasion, JonBenet would go sleep in Burke’s room would she get into the other bed.
    PR: She’d be in, yeah.
    ST: Okay. Um, what would cause that? That she got scared at night or . . .
    PR: No, just, I mean, that happened very seldom and uh, I think, oh, I think one time when I reading to Burke and, she and Burke in Burke’s room and she feel asleep in that bed so I just let her sleep there or something, but I didn’t, you know, usually I’d get her back in her bed cause she would, occasionally wet the bed and her bed had a plastic wrap on it and that one didn’t so I . . .
    ST: Move her to the other bed.
    PR: Right, uh, huh.
    ST: Was it common for her to uh, get up during the night at all, either to uh, use the bathroom or to go downstairs or uh, was she a, a fairly good sleeper that would sleep the night through.
    PR: She, she was a fairly good sleeper. She um, very rarely, you know, would wake up at night. If she did she would, you know, sometimes she would have wet the bed and she would get up and get in that other bed or she, sometimes would come up to our bed, but it was not very often.

    [snip]

    TT: When she wet the bed, would she come up and tell you guys, or would she just crawl onto the other bed, crawl into Burke’s spare bed, what was the routine if she actually wet the bed?
    PR: Well, ah, sometimes she would get up and get into the other bed or sometimes she really wouldn’t wake up and until morning when she normally would wake up and maybe she’d change her nightgown or something and I’d find her things and pajamas in the bathroom floors and…
    TT: OK. Is this something you guys (inaudible) about at all?
    PR: No, cause I mean, all of, Burke wore pull-ups, you know till he was, at night, you know. Till he was fairly old. And Melinda was, we didn’t even have pull-ups back then, she wet the bed till she was, I mean at least when we were married, she was 8 then. So I didn’t see anything, and a lot of our friends, I mean, and Matthew use to wear pull-ups, you know, so …
    TT: So, it wasn’t anything out of the ordinary.
    PR: Uh-huh, no.
    TT: OK. How did John feel about this, did he have any reason to…
    PR: I don’t know if he even knew.
    TT: OK. This was something that you took care of?
    PR: Uh-huh.
    TT: OK. When JonBenet would wet the bed weekly, who took care of the sheets? Is that something Linda had to take care of? How often, I guess, who would even clean the sheets, to be more specific.
    PR: Well, she normally changed the beds weekly, but typically, it the, as seen as, you know I, Linda didn’t come in till 9 o’clock But typically, I would strip the bed, you know, put them in the washer or something.
    TT: OK.
    PR: Before she got there.

    [snip]

    TT: Burke ever sleep over in her room at all? In the spare bed?
    PR: A time or two.
    TT: And she’d sleep in Burke’s room every once and a while too?
    PR: Every once and while.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I don't think that bed was slept in since the 23rd. I must be on everybodys ignore list. I been good, really I have!
    Now Karen, you KNOW I would NEVAH ignore you :computer: since you threw that last hissy fit! Please, don't be mad.

    I've been reading interview transcripts and pouring over photos and enlarging and trying to clarify items in them. I have been trying to work through responses, but I hit Learnin's first because I was actually reading something that pertained to his questions and thoughts, and it's a lot of work remembering what I just read when you're my age, doncha' know? So I'd copy and paste and then start up again looking for something, thinking, I'll get back to DeeDee and Karen in a minute...and hours passed.

    So...let me get to them and then I'm out until tomorrow. :runaway:

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I thought she/he meant "made it to the bed" that night. That is what I have always thought also. She never slept there Christmas night.
    I've read and posted so much now, I have no idea what you mean.

    Also, I read that Jonbenet slept in Burkes room on Christmas Eve per Patsy in one of her interviews. Then why would Patsy say she went in on Christmas morning to check JB's bed to see if it was wet and she also pointed out JB was wearing the same pink pj's she went to bed with on Christmas Eve and she wouldn't be wearing them if they were wet? Why go in and check Jonebnets bed the next morning when it was supposedly preplanned and carried out that Jonbenet was sleeping in Burkes room? I would think it more likely that Patsy would go in and check the bed in Burkes room she slept in.
    Okay, I've posted what Patsy said in the '97 interview with LE about JB sleeping in Burke's room, in an earlier post up the thread. Let me double check what she said in '98 in the BDA interview with Haney.

    Okay, I've used "Burke as a search word and nothing in the '98 interview shows up under that for JB sleeping in Burke's bed. I used "bed" earlier, but can't remember, so if someone wants to do that again, have at it. Otherwise, it will be tomorrow before I can get to it again.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    I feel there had to be bleeding from the vagina. For one, the coroner found blood and semi-fluid blood in her vagina. And also, there was trace evidence of JB's blood on her thighs and pubic area, as well as the dark fibers that led the coroner to state that she had been wiped down with a cloth.
    There was also probably some blood that oozed from her nose with the head blow- the coroner found tan mucus there. Blood that has been exposed to air turns brownish, and I can envision this being mixed with the normal mucus found in the nose and mouth and appearing tan. We know that she had a closed-scalp head injury. No open wound. Any blood from the head bash had to have been blood from her nose, ears, mouth or all 3. But I'm betting nose, because there were some leading question from LE about whether JB ever had nosebleeds (Patsy said no).
    So to me, the vaginal bleeding is definite, regardless of whether she was jabbed with the paintbrush or not. And the original injury happened when she was alive, because the dead don't bleed.

    I'd like to know more about the blood in her vagina. The semi-fluid blood- was it semi-fluid because it was postmortem bleeding? Maybe from the paintbrush staging? Or was it pre-death injury and began to "gel" by the time the coroner saw it?
    I also want to know if he ever actually tested the mucus in her mouth and nose. We know swabs were taken of those areas (and hopefully the ears as well, another place you'd bleed from after a head injury like that). I have never seen any results of those swab tests. I'd like to know if that "tan mucus" actually contained blood.
    Good questions and info.

    There is no doubt she bled from the vaginal injuries. She also had her own blood smeared on her inner thigh, which leads me to believe that happened when her bottoms were down or off of her.

    What I was wondering is whether the blood on the pillowcase came from her head injury or from the vaginal injuries. It could have been from from earlier sexual molestation, as well. But having a pillowcase contaminated in that way seems less likely than from the head blow? Couldn't forensics tell if it was mixed with mucous vs vaginal fluids? I have no idea....

    But you can see a redish gold drop of mucous dried on her face in one of the autopsy photos.

    Thomas wrote that there was a blood-tinged drop of mucous belonging to JonBenet on her upper right (?) sleeve. Yes, the side her head was turned to; I deduced that it dropped from her face onto the shirt sleeve as she lay on her back, face turned to the right, but it could have been at some other point after the head blow, I guess.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    ITA. It seems she had trouble hearing a lot of what Patsy said due to all the "inaudibles." It's frustarting because what Patsy says could be vitally important, but we read "inaudible."
    Yes, it is frustrating. I would hope the detectives were making notes, mental ones, at least. But we'll never know what they heard, I guess.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  12. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    ITA. So if that is true the bloody pillowcase happened on the 23rd right? The night of the Christmas party.
    That multicolered sweater on JB's bed could have been the sweater Arianna wore at the Christmas party? Even though Patsy said it was Jonbenets sweater why couldn't Arianna have changed in JB's room and left it there? I don't believe what Patsy says about this, although I don't know what it could possibly have to do with the crime. Unless the bloody pillowcase had something to do with it. I dunno, I'm lost. Just thinking out loud.
    I don't think Patsy would have missed JonBenet bleeding, would she? So I have to say that I think the blood got on that pillowcase the night she was murdered, on the 25th/26th?

    John said that multi-colored sweater was Patsy's. Patsy said it was JonBenet's.

    I think I can finally picture what JonBenet wore to the White's, as Patsy and John described it and we can see her clothes laying around the room.

    Black velvet vest: on the twin bed with stuffed animals.

    Black velvet pants: on the trunk at the foot of JB's bed.

    White, long sleeve, crew neck shirt with star on front: found on body.

    Underwear: where are those she wore to the White's? BIG QUESTION MARK.

    White socks: on the bed with the vest.

    Brightly colored scarf: on bed with vest and socks.

    Black boots that zipped up front: Patsy and John described these.

    Hair tied up with colorful decoration on top.

    Coat: photographed in car by LE.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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  1. JB's blood on the pillowcase...
    By koldkase in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 173
    Last Post: August 17, 2012, 7:13 am, Fri Aug 17 7:13:53 UTC 2012

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