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  1. #25

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    I agree that it would seem Patsy would not have made up the bed on the 25th.

    But this still does not explain how that pj top got under the pillow--if it was ever there that day/night. I'm not explaining this question I have well, am I?

    There is a photo of JonBenet on Christmas morning. She is wearing pink pjs, top and bottom, which Patsy said she wore Christmas Eve and since she's wearing them in the "Christmas presents" photo, this meant JB had not wet them that night.

    That was said by Patsy to be the pink top we see in the crime scene photo of JB's bed, at the head of the bed. But the bottoms are only mentioned in that Patsy said she couldn't "find" them when she was undressing JB in bed and that's why she put the white bottoms on the child.

    So JonBenet opened her Christmas presents in the pink pjs. Then she changed out of those at some point, into play clothes...though Patsy couldn't remember what she wore that day, if I'm remembering correctly. So did JonBenet throw that pink top on the bed, or did she put it under the pillow--Patsy said that's where it would have been. Or did Patsy put it under the pillow--Patsy said that's where it would have been. If it was just tossed onto the bed by JonBenet and landed at the top of the mattress, fine...where was the pillow then? At the foot of the bed? Or did JonBenet put the pj top under the pillow herself, at the HEAD of the bed? (Seems unlikely.)

    But that's just the pj TOP. Where are the matching pj bottoms that JB took off at the same time? Why aren't they on the bed? Under the pillow? Floor? In the room? Or are they and we just don't see them because we only get the photos the Ramsey propagandists want us to see?

    Where are those pink bottoms? How did the pillow get to the foot of the bed, and when? Seems important: there was blood on the pillowcase. The child bled from the nose the night she was murdered; she was molested and bled from that abuse, as well. Since the size 12-14 Bloomies appear to me not possible to be worn by the child when she was alive and moving around on her own, where are the pair of underwear that JonBenet actually wore to the White's party? When and how did those size 12-14 Bloomies get onto JonBenet?

    LE should know the answers to these questions, even if they can't name the exact person who molested and/or strangled the child. I hope to heck they do.

    To sum up: that's TWO mystery clothing items unexplained to me: pj bottoms and underwear belonging to a molested and murdered child. I just want to know where the pink pj bottoms and actual underwear she wore to the White's ended up.

    The blood on the pillowcase, the location of the pillow at the foot of the bed, the location of the inside-out pink pj top at the head of the bed, the location of the clothes taken off of JonBenet, laid out neatly--and the clothing LE perhaps didn't find--seem important to me.

    But some of the subtle details got by me in the deluge of transcripts and books, etc., through the years. So I'll keep looking and hope I now know what to look for.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  2. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I agree that it would seem Patsy would not have made up the bed on the 25th.

    But this still does not explain how that pj top got under the pillow--if it was ever there that day/night. I'm not explaining this question I have well, am I?

    There is a photo of JonBenet on Christmas morning. She is wearing pink pjs, top and bottom, which Patsy said she wore Christmas Eve and since she's wearing them in the "Christmas presents" photo, this meant JB had not wet them that night.

    That was said by Patsy to be the pink top we see in the crime scene photo of JB's bed, at the head of the bed. But the bottoms are only mentioned in that Patsy said she couldn't "find" them when she was undressing JB in bed and that's why she put the white bottoms on the child.

    So JonBenet opened her Christmas presents in the pink pjs. Then she changed out of those at some point, into play clothes...though Patsy couldn't remember what she wore that day, if I'm remembering correctly. So did JonBenet throw that pink top on the bed, or did she put it under the pillow--Patsy said that's where it would have been. Or did Patsy put it under the pillow--Patsy said that's where it would have been. If it was just tossed onto the bed by JonBenet and landed at the top of the mattress, fine...where was the pillow then? At the foot of the bed? Or did JonBenet put the pj top under the pillow herself, at the HEAD of the bed? (Seems unlikely.)

    But that's just the pj TOP. Where are the matching pj bottoms that JB took off at the same time? Why aren't they on the bed? Under the pillow? Floor? In the room? Or are they and we just don't see them because we only get the photos the Ramsey propagandists want us to see?

    Where are those pink bottoms? How did the pillow get to the foot of the bed, and when? Seems important: there was blood on the pillowcase. The child bled from the nose the night she was murdered; she was molested and bled from that abuse, as well. Since the size 12-14 Bloomies appear to me not possible to be worn by the child when she was alive and moving around on her own, where are the pair of underwear that JonBenet actually wore to the White's party? When and how did those size 12-14 Bloomies get onto JonBenet?

    LE should know the answers to these questions, even if they can't name the exact person who molested and/or strangled the child. I hope to heck they do.

    To sum up: that's TWO mystery clothing items unexplained to me: pj bottoms and underwear belonging to a molested and murdered child. I just want to know where the pink pj bottoms and actual underwear she wore to the White's ended up.

    The blood on the pillowcase, the location of the pillow at the foot of the bed, the location of the inside-out pink pj top at the head of the bed, the location of the clothes taken off of JonBenet, laid out neatly--and the clothing LE perhaps didn't find--seem important to me.

    But some of the subtle details got by me in the deluge of transcripts and books, etc., through the years. So I'll keep looking and hope I now know what to look for.
    I rhink that bed was unmade from the 23rd. Unless LHP says she put the pink PJ's under the pillow. But she does say those sheets in the crime scene photos are not the ones she put on previously. Laid out neatly..Couldn't it mean she was already dressed in her pj's when she ate the pineapple, or does it? I'm sorry, I just don' believe Patsy and John about this whole "putting a zonked JB to bed" story.

    Not wetting the bed that night doesn't discount the story that JB slept in Burkes room Christmas night. She may not have wet that bed.

    Maybe she was wearing the pink pj bottoms when she was molested and bled. That would explain why they had to disappear along with the size 6 panties, which i think she was also wearing that night.....when she was put to bed. I know she urinated in the long johns laying on her stomach outside the wine cellar but who's to say when they were put on her? This reeks of family involvement.And no I'm not saying she was changed in anticipation of a molestation. We will never know when she was changed. IMO.

  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Good point about the pillow being used to cushion the blow or somehow ending up doing that. It was just a thought. I'm desperate to figure this out.

    , from so many sources through the years, and stories changed so often, it's nearly impossible to keep score.
    The pillow was photographed at the foot of the bed. The pink top at the head of the bed was the top to the pjs Patsy said JonBenet slept in on Christmas Eve and was photographed in Christmas morning. How the pillow ended up at the foot of the bed, I can't find where anyone answered that question.

    But Patsy said it was odd in her '98 DA interview. Then she changed the topic. I can't find where she was asked in either '97 or '98 if she made the bed. So I have no idea. I agree it looks like the bed was haphazard, but beds do look that way when they've been slept in. We don't know if she slept in that bed at all Christmas night, just what the Ramseys say.

    Patsy told various ambiguous stories about whether JonBenet slept in Burke's bedroom: rarely, sometimes, not at all, and of course, she couldn't remember.

    I can't remember what is written about this in the books. By this time, I've forgotten so much from them, I need to read them all again. Like I need a hole in my head....

    From '97 LE interview with Patsy:
    I believe it's because most believe most of what Patsy said in her interviews. I believe she lied like a rug.

    With the pillow at the other end of the bed, really? JB must have been a thrasher is all I can figure. I guess we'll never know because Patsy "wouldn't have remembered if she was a thrasher" eithor. IMO.

    Slept in that bed Christmas Eve is more of Patsys "I don't know, or I don't remember." She didn't know where her daughter slept that night? Even knowing Burkes bed didn't have the plastic sheets on it? It seems it would be a concern of hers and she would remedy that since JB was a bedwetter.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Now Karen, you KNOW I would NEVAH ignore you :computer: since you threw that last hissy fit! Please, don't be mad.

    I've been reading interview transcripts and pouring over photos and enlarging and trying to clarify items in them. I have been trying to work through responses, but I hit Learnin's first because I was actually reading something that pertained to his questions and thoughts, and it's a lot of work remembering what I just read when you're my age, doncha' know? So I'd copy and paste and then start up again looking for something, thinking, I'll get back to DeeDee and Karen in a minute...and hours passed.

    So...let me get to them and then I'm out until tomorrow. :runaway:
    You're pretty much the only one who doesn't. But then again, most don't believe the same as I do so maybe it's better if some do discount what I say.
    Hmm, I don't remember that hissy fit. Don't pay any attention to those. After an hour I forget all about it. Please don't be offended by that.
    "Hours passed." That's ok. You usually do always answer me eventually and I'm happy with that.
    Boy do I sound like a whiner. I don't mean to. But i'm only on here a limited amount of time and when I am I post a marathon. No wonder my posts get overlooked!

  5. #29

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    I just had a thought. I've always wondered why JBR's pillow was at the bottom of the bed, and the bed looked "ruffled," not slept in. After looking at the photo posted by KK, it suddenly occured to me, maybe the "ruffling" and the pillow at the bottom of the bed were part of the STAGING of the crime scene! The perp wanted it to look like JonBenet was taken from her bed after some sort of struggle - so the pillow was taken from the top of the bed (exposing the pink PJ top that had been underneath) and thrown to the bottom.

    I agree that the bed probably hadn't been made since LHP was there. I don't think Patsy was into making beds. She was a house slob from all reports, and it wouldn't have been high on her to-do list with everything else she had going on at Christmas.

  6. #30

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    But wouldn't the white blanket be accounted for if it was staged to look like some kind of struggle as in all the covers pulled out from being tucked and that sort of thing? I like this idea and I think it needs to be explored. It's different and Lord knows we need something different to discuss!

  7. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
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    Canada
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    Courtesy of Little

    Steve Thomas "JonBenét"
    35
    *snip*

    Instead of focusing on the family, the police investigation was headed
    another way, toward Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, the Ramseys' housekeeper.
    Despite being overcome with grief, she furnished the startling
    information that the little girl had a problem wetting her bed. That was
    of great interest to the police. Often the fouling of a bed is seen in cases
    of incest, as a child tries to appear undesirable to an offender.
    For the first six months Hoffmann-Pugh worked there, she said, JonBenet
    wet the bed! every night, and Patsy even had the girl in pull-up
    diapers. Then the bed-wetting had stopped, but it had resumed about a
    month ago. When Hoffmann-Pugh arrived for work, she said, Patsy
    already had the bed stripped and the sheets going in the washing machine.


    She told the police that the problem also extended to JonBenet soiling
    the bed, and recalled once finding fecal matter the size of a grapefruit
    on the sheets.
    Hoffmann-Pugh had fallen apart with emotion at her home on Valle Drive in Ft. Lupton when two detectives told her that JonBenet was dead. This was what she had dreaded and warned the family about! The gorgeous child was allowed to roller-skate and ride her bike all alone,
    and the nightmare had come true. "My poor Patsy," she sobbed. "I
    love Patsy like my daughter."

    Patsy had hired her away from a cleaning service crew known as
    Merry Maids about fourteen-months earlier and had befriended her new
    housekeeper. Hoffmann-Pugh had dropped out of high school as a
    sophomore, married at age fifteen, and had six children. She was wearing
    a pair of Patsy's old shoes as she spoke to police.

    The detectives quickly cleared up the question of the $2,000 loan
    she had recently requested from the Ramseys. Patsy had agreed to recover the loan from future weekly paychecks of $200. Hoffmann-Pugh
    was to use part of the money to pay the rent, and the rest would go for
    truck parts and some family dental work. Christmas dinner had been
    soft tacos because her husband had no teeth.
    I wonder why Patsy Ramsey didn't leave the soiled bed for Linda to clean up(?).
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I don't think that bed was slept in since the 23rd. I must be on everybodys ignore list. I been good, really I have!
    Yea, Karen, I'm inclined to believe that also.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    ITA. So if that is true the bloody pillowcase happened on the 23rd right? The night of the Christmas party.
    That multicolered sweater on JB's bed could have been the sweater Arianna wore at the Christmas party? Even though Patsy said it was Jonbenets sweater why couldn't Arianna have changed in JB's room and left it there? I don't believe what Patsy says about this, although I don't know what it could possibly have to do with the crime. Unless the bloody pillowcase had something to do with it. I dunno, I'm lost. Just thinking out loud.
    If there is blood on that pillow, I'm inclined to think it came from the night of the murder. Could it have come from transfer? Someone cleaning JBR up and grabbed the pillow that was on the floor and tossed it on the bed? Or did someone lay it under her head in the bathroom or bedroom floor and then toss it on the bed after deciding to take her to the basement?

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    If there is blood on that pillow, I'm inclined to think it came from the night of the murder. Could it have come from transfer? Someone cleaning JBR up and grabbed the pillow that was on the floor and tossed it on the bed? Or did someone lay it under her head in the bathroom or bedroom floor and then toss it on the bed after deciding to take her to the basement?


    Well I guess that could be possible since it stands to reason JB used her own bathroom Christmas night if she went. I wonder how much blood was there and what the possible causes could be other than a headbash. There must be at least a few. My sons lost their teeth (naturally of course) at 6 and 7 and found a little blood on their pillowcase in the morning afterwards. I think there could be many explanations but we would have to know how much blood was there. I still don't think she made it to that bed to sleep Christmas night.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I don't think Patsy would have missed JonBenet bleeding, would she? So I have to say that I think the blood got on that pillowcase the night she was murdered, on the 25th/26th?

    John said that multi-colored sweater was Patsy's. Patsy said it was JonBenet's.

    I think I can finally picture what JonBenet wore to the White's, as Patsy and John described it and we can see her clothes laying around the room.

    Black velvet vest: on the twin bed with stuffed animals.

    Black velvet pants: on the trunk at the foot of JB's bed.

    White, long sleeve, crew neck shirt with star on front: found on body.

    Underwear: where are those she wore to the White's? BIG QUESTION MARK.

    White socks: on the bed with the vest.

    Brightly colored scarf: on bed with vest and socks.

    Black boots that zipped up front: Patsy and John described these.

    Hair tied up with colorful decoration on top.

    Coat: photographed in car by LE.

    Wasn't there a pair of soiled underwear on the floor of JBR's bedroom? Would that have been the pair of underwear that was taken off when JBR came home from the White's

    If there was a pair of soiled underwear on the floor, and we have the velvet outfit that JBR wore to the Whites laid on the second bed and chest, then, can the following be a true scenario?

    The family came home and spent some time downstairs when the snack was fixed while Burke and John fooled around with the model....JBR messed with her new bike and other things. JBR eats some pineapple. After a few minutes, they go upstairs...Burke, at one point, said he saw JBR "walk" up the stairs. After a bit, JBR gets undressed...Patsy possibly helping...the socks, etc. are laid neatly on the second bed as if JBR might be wearing these for the trip to Michigan the next day. Patsy discovers that JBR has soiled herself....and the soiled underwear are taken off and Patsy is angered by the soiling. You can't put a kid to bed who has soiled her underwear, she has to be clean...so she is taken into the bathroom with bear feet that are moist because she has just removed her socks....she gets lint on her feet....Patsy is angry and begins cleaning her and "wipes" her hard in the process....a fight ensues and this is where JBR falls and strikes her head.

  12. #36

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    I tend to dismiss much of this Patsy chatter, in these interviews, because she doesn' seem to remember much like the important matter of how often JBR and Burke slept together. All parents know what beds their young children end up in the next morning and how often. So, anyway, I look at these crime scene photos and here is what I see.

    JBR undressed and her clothes were neatly placed on the second bed...socks stretched out neatly....pants at foot of bed on a chest. I believe she is going to wear these clothes to Michigan because of this.

    I look at the bed and I see a pillow at the foot of the bed and a pj top, that she wore the morning before, lying up where the pillow should be. This tells me that, on Christmas morning, JB got dressed at some point and flung the pj top up on the bed. I think the pj bottoms might be under the pillow at the bottom of the bed. This scene tells me that JBR never got to bed that night, or never got to bed in that bed.....

    What parent is not, at the least, going to throw pajamas off the bed before placing their child in bed for the night?

    And what about this bedwetting? Am I to believe that Patsy would allow JBR to be placed in bed asleep at around 9-9:30 when she is a bed wetter?????
    No way. Here you have a little girl that was no doubt drinking at the Whites from about 5 p.m. on and then she fell asleep in the car around 8 p.m. and you're not going to make her empty her bladder before going to bed?

    My grandchildren spend the night with their grandmother and me on occasion. We'll be watching cartoons or some movie on TV and they will, invariably fall to sleep at some point. I finish watching the movie or turn it to a ball game or something. Before I put them to bed, I always make them go to the bathroom because they've been eating snacks and drinking since the early hours of the evening.....

    I'm not buying it.



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  1. JB's blood on the pillowcase...
    By koldkase in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
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    Last Post: August 17, 2012, 7:13 am, Fri Aug 17 7:13:53 UTC 2012

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