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  1. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    The position of the pillow doesn't really bother me. But I agree with Karen tjt JB did not sleep in that bed that night. Either JB put the pillow there to watch TV (probably not that night because it was too late when they got home and Patsy "claimed" she was asleep. OR Patsy moved it herself, looking under the pillow for the other half of the pajamas.
    When I say it bothers me, I mean it bothers me because it doesn't go with the lies we've been told. The pillow is not where it should be if an already-asleep JonBenet was tucked into bed like John and Patsy claim. And it certainly doesn't make sense for JonBenet to place her pillow there and watch videos late that night without Patsy knowing. Supposedly, Patsy left JonBenet's door ajar when she left the room after undressing and redressing her. Of course, we know Patsy also lies about things, especially when she's trying to cover up the truth.

    That pillow is evidence that JonBenet was NOT carried up to her room asleep, that she STAYED asleep and then was put to bed quietly. That is the lie John and Patsy would desperately have us believe because the truth is quite the opposite. It's obvious to me now, JonBenet was awake and never went to the bed that night. She very well may have started watching a video on that bed before whatever happened did happen, but she was never "put to bed" as John and Patsy told investigators and wrote in their book of lies, DOI.

  2. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    My posts aren't showing up. That's the first time this has happened. Did I say something unacceptable?
    No, not at all. It must be a hiccup in the forum software. Sometimes that happens. This post showed up. Are there others missing?

  3. #51

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    No.

  4. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    When I say it bothers me, I mean it bothers me because it doesn't go with the lies we've been told. The pillow is not where it should be if an already-asleep JonBenet was tucked into bed like John and Patsy claim. And it certainly doesn't make sense for JonBenet to place her pillow there and watch videos late that night without Patsy knowing. Supposedly, Patsy left JonBenet's door ajar when she left the room after undressing and redressing her. Of course, we know Patsy also lies about things, especially when she's trying to cover up the truth.

    That pillow is evidence that JonBenet was NOT carried up to her room asleep, that she STAYED asleep and then was put to bed quietly. That is the lie John and Patsy would desperately have us believe because the truth is quite the opposite. It's obvious to me now, JonBenet was awake and never went to the bed that night. She very well may have started watching a video on that bed before whatever happened did happen, but she was never "put to bed" as John and Patsy told investigators and wrote in their book of lies, DOI.

    Yea, that's how I see it. She wasn't neatly tucked in while asleep that night. Bed shows that. Why would an intruder move that pillow?

  5. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Well, Karen, the socks seemed to be laid neatly stretched out side by side. This tells me that someone took the socks off and did not just thow them on the bed. Whoever took those socks off, took the trouble to lay them out straight beside one another...that took some effort.
    Well, now that's interesting. Didn't John say HE took JB's shoes off?

    So...yes, we can't beleive what they said, since they lied so much, but stay with me here, as I'm just pondering about a 100 things now as I focus on the bedroom and bed, which tells us a lot, but the trick is figuring out what is staged and what is not.

    Looking at one possibility: taking the things in the bedroom at face value. If John took her shoes off, maybe he laid the socks out neatly like that. Then the stuff that's loosely thrown on the bed and trunk--Patsy?

    Of course, that would mean they did take JB up to bed asleep and undressed her in bed. Or maybe not.

    Maybe they took her up asleep, John took off her shoes and socks; Patsy then took off her clothes...and got her up to go to the bathroom.

    Remember all the talk about how JB would sleep deep? Nedra said she was resistant to being awakened. I look at JB's hair and it looks very mussed up.

    So...again, just thinking about possibilities, and this follows your "accident in the bathroom" scenario, Learnin: JonBenet's bedclothes weren't washed because she had an accident, because Patsy did make her get up to go to the bathroom. Also, let's say her bed was helter skelter because it hadn't been made recently, and she never did sleep in it on Christmas night after all.

    The toilet in JB's bathroom was "used", according to the '98 BDA interview with Patsy. I can't remember exactly where the "brown pants" and "dirty panties" were in JB's quarters, but I do remember Patsy being asked about them. I was thinking the soiled underwear was actually still in the brown pants, but I may be wrong about that. I seem to remember Haney asking Patsy if JB wore those to play that day...? Of course, Patsy...no memory.

    When Patsy remembers lots of details...up until the significant details, I perk up. Patsy remembered JB playing that day outside Burke's doorway, while the other kids played videogames in Burke's room. Patsy remembers JB was making jewelry, and Patsy played with JB doing that for a little while, she said. But she can't remember what JonBenet was wearing? JB changed from pjs into play clothes, then into clothing she wore for the party at the Whites', which she and Patsy argued about, but Patsy can't remember what JB wore to play on the last day of her life? I'm not buying it. If Patsy was lying (were her lips moving?), she was trying to obscure something about JonBenet's clothing from that day/night. Why?

    Because by then, Patsy knew that the clothing was important evidence. She probably knew that before she made that 911 call, I'm thinking.

    So to continue on the path of "what-if": Patsy got JB up to go to the bathroom; JB then was hungry. So they went downstairs and JB had a few pieces of pineapple, then went back up to bed, where the head blow occurred.

    I keep thinking of those pull-up diapers hanging out of the cupboard outside JB's bedroom. Maybe Patsy wanted to put those on JB, so she wouldn't have to give her a bath in the morning, when they were hurrying to get to the airport? Just brainstorming here....

    One other thing that Smit and Haney talked about a lot, in the interviews and on TV, etc.: something about a tupperware bowl of pineapple in JB's bedroom? We mocked Smit over it: he actually suggested an intruder also brought pineapple. Now I'm wondering if that was something LE found and that maybe it was where Patsy had the pineapple stored in the fridge. So what if Patsy--or someone--brought the pineapple up to JonBenet in her room if JB, awakened to use the bathroom, said she was hungry? It could have been the very same pineapple found in the bowl on the table.

    I totally agree with y'all that Patsy surely would have awakened JonBenet to go to the bathroom, especially when they were leaving early the next morning. She was questioned extensively about this by LE. So maybe that's the key. Thomas said it was. But maybe she didn't wet the bed, but the issue was part of the events that led to the head blow?

    I wish we could see all the photos of that bedroom and bathroom. There are many things in there we have never seen.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

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    My opinions, nothing more.

  6. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    That pillow being at the wrong end of the bed has always bothered me. I sincerely doubt JonBenet slept like that, and it's obvious the pillow started out at the top of the bed, covering the pink PJ top. If the pillow wasn't moved there to suggest a struggle, then that means JBR never made it to bed that night because the pillow was in that position the whole time. It's conceivable that JBR put the pillow there while playing on her bed, etc. on Christmas day.

    There are no two ways around it. JonBenet would not have been laid on the bed, allegedly undressed and re-dressed by Patsy, and then left there for the rest of the night with her head on a half-sideways pillow at the wrong end of the bed with no covers (or a way to pull up covers if she got cold in the night)!
    JB had a TV inside her closet, on an upper shelf. I've always figured she watched it there. Patsy said JB watched videos on that, if I'm not mistaken, just like Burke's TV was not hooked up except for videos and videogames, according to Patsy.

    That closet was at the end of the room opposite JB's bed. So putting the pillow on the end might have been a habit of hers, to watch videos.

    Patsy was asked by Haney about vidoes lying in the floor, and they talked about them. There were also vidoes lying in the floor in JAR's room, and seems like I couldn't figure out if those were the ones Haney was addressing or if he was speaking about some in JB's room.

    I guess I'm wondering about something that might fit with my last post: Patsy woke JB up to go to the bathroom, JB was hungry, she ate some pineapple with someone's help, and then she was awake again. Maybe Patsy put a video in to help her get back to sleep?

    See, I'm thinking of my experience with children: when they fall asleep for a short period of time, but are awakened for whatever reason, then they're very hard to get back to sleep. I have, in fact, used TV to get them settled back down, hoping they'd go back to sleep if they were still.

    So then Patsy gets the white blanket to lay over JonBenet, since her bedclothes are on the opposite way and can't be "pulled" over her. And that's how the white blanket enters the picture?

    I don't know, just an idea.
    Last edited by koldkase; January 21, 2011, 4:01 pm at Fri Jan 21 16:01:22 UTC 2011.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  7. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    Patsy had said ( so take it with a grain of salt, althouh it makes sense) that JB used to lie that way when she watched videos. We don't know if she recieved any videos on Christmas Day. One thing I wonder is why did Burke recieve a Nintendo on Christmas day and not Jonbenet? Maybe the large doll was her major gift, althouh the bike could have been, if they did that.

    Sorry, I quoted the wrong post.
    Oh, thanks! So Patsy specifically said that's how JB watched videos? Was that in the LE interviews?

    (Just saw this, as I'm working my way through posts and responding, so sorry I missed it before I wrote my last post.)

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    My posts aren't showing up. That's the first time this has happened. Did I say something unacceptable?
    Are you kidding? We're so happy to see you posting, Moab would pay you!

    It must have been a fluke. Put down the wine.... :tipsy:

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    I often wish this forum had the "Thanks" button next to the "Quote" button like we do on WS. There, you don't have to quote the whole post to let a poster know you have read their post and agree with or like what they say.
    How about it, MODS? Can we have that here, please?
    TOTALLY agree. Very helpful button.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Well, if the pillow was there so she could watch videos, then, she wasn't put to bed asleep that night or she woke up at some time and was watching videos. This would make Burke more suspicious.
    You know, we actually have never been able to read Tom Miller's book on this case, published in Japan...foreign language. He and his wife, former Ramsey long-time friend Judith Phillips, tried to get it published here, but never could because of the guaranteed lawsuit.

    Judith, who posts here under the hat Cookie, said all would be revealed. Only...never was, if you don't read Japanese.

    But her daughter, who played with Burke and JB as a child herself at the time, wrote that letter to JonBenet, which was publied in the NE. It was an odd thing to do, I thought, so I felt was very deliberately done for reasons we can only speculate about.

    In the letter, which is around here somewhere, I think, Judith's daughter "talks" to JonBenet about how the girls used to tease Burke by turning off his videogame on him. She described in detail how he chased them to the bathroom (JB's?) and banged on the door while they hid inside.

    I always thought this was simply a way to make a point without getting sued: Burke and JB had a common sibling relationship, which involved fighting.

    Not so common, though way TOO common, is sexual molestation between older brothers and younger siblings.

    I tend to think all these issues played into what happened to JonBenet that night.

    You know, there was also blood on that white blanket and the Barbie gown, as well: both found with the body in the basement. There was blood on the pillowcase, but that was in the bedroom.

    Burke could not have carried JonBenet into the basement, so if the head blow happened in her bedroom or nearby, he's out for the strangulation. Either John and/or Patsy had to carry her to the basement.

    Patsy's fibers in the garrote; John's fibers in the genital area where the child was wiped down. Patsy's paintbrush, but I have always thought that the garrote was a guy idea. Patsy wrote the note, I am personally certain.

    Thinking...thinking....

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    Has anyone else picked up on Patsy's comment about JB's vest having "silver snaps"? Because at least ONE forensic specialist likened the round "abrasions" on her cheek and back to a mark that might be made by a metal snap.
    Beckner actually spoke to that in a media interview. He was addressing Smit's pig stunning experiment, I believe. He said they had determined it was not a stun gun, but possibly buttons or snaps. (That's a generalization of what Beckner said, but from memory, so....)

    I have to run now, but I'll be looking at the transcripts of the LE interviews again to hone in on the issues we're now raising. If anyone else wants to read up, we have these transcripts in our case library here. There's a "sticky" thread at the top of the JB forum thread list page with links to it.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  12. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    When I say it bothers me, I mean it bothers me because it doesn't go with the lies we've been told. The pillow is not where it should be if an already-asleep JonBenet was tucked into bed like John and Patsy claim. And it certainly doesn't make sense for JonBenet to place her pillow there and watch videos late that night without Patsy knowing. Supposedly, Patsy left JonBenet's door ajar when she left the room after undressing and redressing her. Of course, we know Patsy also lies about things, especially when she's trying to cover up the truth.

    That pillow is evidence that JonBenet was NOT carried up to her room asleep, that she STAYED asleep and then was put to bed quietly. That is the lie John and Patsy would desperately have us believe because the truth is quite the opposite. It's obvious to me now, JonBenet was awake and never went to the bed that night. She very well may have started watching a video on that bed before whatever happened did happen, but she was never "put to bed" as John and Patsy told investigators and wrote in their book of lies, DOI.
    Yes! THIS!

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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