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  1. #1

    Default The Skull Fracture and the Reverend

    I was looking over the photos that koldkase put together here and I was studying a picture of JBR's bathroom. I noticed that the toilet sticks out a bit and I began to wonder about the toilet bowl rim having caused the skull fracture since ST's theory was that there might have been a bedwetting incident which led to the head injury.
    I took an apple and struck it against my toilet bowl rim and all three strikes left an imprint which measured one half inch in depth which, I've read, was the depth of the skull indentation. On my third strike, I produced an indentation in the apple which is the exact dimension of the skull depression. What is more, the indentation is curved just as we see in the autopsy photo of the skull.
    I'm not putting this forth as the ultimate truth of what happened but, as far as I'm concerned, I've more than proven to myself that the blow could have happened in a bathroom.
    In the "blood on the pillowcase" thread, we've been having a good discussion concerning the bedroom, etc. I've just been trying to piece together a scenario which would fit the headblow happening upstairs and the garroting down in the basement. It seems the girl was carried down the staircase as she had the garland in her hair.
    Secondly, I read last night in ST's book where he relates a conversation with the Reverend Dr. Frank Harrington:

    "Trujillo and I went over to the Peachtree Presbyterian Church to talk with the Rev. Dr. Frank Harrington the next morning. He knew the family well, had married John and Patsy, buried Beth, baptized JonBenet, and had just buried her, too. If anyone could provide us with some insight, it should be the Reverend Harrington.

    The minister met us with a frosty demeanor and a curt, "I'm not sure I want to talk to you. I will tell you I will share no privileged information."

    That set me thinking about the rules of privilege, in which information can legally be kept in confidence, such as between doctor and patient or lawyer and client. Also privileged would be a confession by a parishioner to a clergyman. "Is there privileged information?" I asked.

    "I won't answer that," Harrington said. "Do I need an attorney?"

    And then Thomas relates that they had to wait about 20 minutes for an attorney to be present. Now, obviously that Reverend had some kind of information. When Thomas asked if he had privileged information, the good Reverend wouldn't lie. He said, "I won't answer that." It seems that all the main players, in Atlanta (the good reverend and John's ex were lawyered up and resisting questions).

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    I was looking over the photos that koldkase put together here and I was studying a picture of JBR's bathroom. I noticed that the toilet sticks out a bit and I began to wonder about the toilet bowl rim having caused the skull fracture since ST's theory was that there might have been a bedwetting incident which led to the head injury.
    I took an apple and struck it against my toilet bowl rim and all three strikes left an imprint which measured one half inch in depth which, I've read, was the depth of the skull indentation. On my third strike, I produced an indentation in the apple which is the exact dimension of the skull depression. What is more, the indentation is curved just as we see in the autopsy photo of the skull.
    I'm not putting this forth as the ultimate truth of what happened but, as far as I'm concerned, I've more than proven to myself that the blow could have happened in a bathroom.
    In the "blood on the pillowcase" thread, we've been having a good discussion concerning the bedroom, etc. I've just been trying to piece together a scenario which would fit the headblow happening upstairs and the garroting down in the basement. It seems the girl was carried down the staircase as she had the garland in her hair.
    Secondly, I read last night in ST's book where he relates a conversation with the Reverend Dr. Frank Harrington:

    "Trujillo and I went over to the Peachtree Presbyterian Church to talk with the Rev. Dr. Frank Harrington the next morning. He knew the family well, had married John and Patsy, buried Beth, baptized JonBenet, and had just buried her, too. If anyone could provide us with some insight, it should be the Reverend Harrington.

    The minister met us with a frosty demeanor and a curt, "I'm not sure I want to talk to you. I will tell you I will share no privileged information."

    That set me thinking about the rules of privilege, in which information can legally be kept in confidence, such as between doctor and patient or lawyer and client. Also privileged would be a confession by a parishioner to a clergyman. "Is there privileged information?" I asked.

    "I won't answer that," Harrington said. "Do I need an attorney?"

    And then Thomas relates that they had to wait about 20 minutes for an attorney to be present. Now, obviously that Reverend had some kind of information. When Thomas asked if he had privileged information, the good Reverend wouldn't lie. He said, "I won't answer that." It seems that all the main players, in Atlanta (the good reverend and John's ex were lawyered up and resisting questions).
    Excellent post, Learnin. This is the most practical believable theory for me. This was one very good experiment, with the third strike producing the same indentation on JonBenét's skull.

    Reverend Harrington, like all the others, kept his mouth shut.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  3. #3

    Default

    I love those of you who are so clever with your experiments. Very interesting.

    If there had been a trial in this case, I daresay we would have heard some important expert testimony, including that of Dr. Meyers, regarding that head injury.

    Thomas obviously had the advantage of hearing from those experts, though he didn't disclose much of that except in his vague description of his own theory of what happened. I respect Thomas's skills in this case tremendously.

    Who can imagine a preacher saying that to LE investigating the murder of a child? I cannot. I will never understand how such supposed good citizens abandoned JonBenet so quickly. Asking for a lawyer to even talk to LE? Pure evil.

    And IMO, the Ramseys and all those who helped them by closing ranks on the investigation into the molestation and murder of a child define the reality of evil. Shame on them all.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
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    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  4. #4

    Default

    Just wanted to clarify something. In my apple/toilet bowl rim experiment, I stated the depth was one half inch. The more correct term would have been heighth. I think the heighth was one half inch and width was 1 and 1 half inch or something very close.

  5. #5
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    Very interesting, learnin. I have been posting, off and on, at the JW Forum and FFJ since shortly after JW was created. During the early years, I had "inside" info because my S-I-L's father worked in the FBI Labs at headquarters in DC. Having done lab work for field agents all over the place, including Denver, he kept me informed on what the FBI thought about the JBR case. Bottom line:

    1- FBI Agents thought the actions of the Ramseys "strange" for parents whose daughter was killed;

    2- questioned why John Ramsey called 911 instead of LM security or FBI (he was an executive of a company that supported the Dept of Defense and initial evidence was his daughter had been "kidnapped" by terrorist -- ample reason for the FBI to lead the investigation until proven not a terrorist action against a defense contractor executive);

    3- had a lot of confidence in Steve Thomas (I think he was offered a job at one time), and felt he was "headed-in-the-right-direction";

    4- felt the DA's office was impeding the investigation (e.g., offered to give the Ramsey's lawyers all evidence in return for just talking to LE -- FBI talked DA out of this "crazy" idea -- I believe they later gave lawyers Ramsey statements but not "evidence" to agree to interviews);

    5- not only felt the Ramseys should have been called to testify under oath in front of the GJ but told the DA's office so, and was ignored;

    6- most of their suggestions were ignored; and

    7- privately felt that an obstruction of justice investigation should have been launched by the Colorado AG's Office.

    In all my posting from day one until today, I have never accused a Ramsey of killing JBR -- mainly because I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and because never once did my FBI sources say they believed a Ramsey killed JBR. I will admit that I have always felt it a huge possibility that JBR was killed accidently, not by terrorist. Learnin's theory follows this logic.

    While I still read these threads, I haven't posted on the case in a long time because I've felt that we are ploughing the same rows. Learnin got my interest. And the discussion of "the good Rev's" actions reminded me of the FBI's comments about the lack of cooperation of those one would think would be doing anything to catch the killer. Interesting stuff...
    Last edited by Shadow; January 25, 2011, 1:43 pm at Tue Jan 25 13:43:20 UTC 2011.
    “Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason.” -- Anonymous

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Just wanted to clarify something. In my apple/toilet bowl rim experiment, I stated the depth was one half inch. The more correct term would have been heighth. I think the heighth was one half inch and width was 1 and 1 half inch or something very close.
    Hi Learnin! I seem to have missed your apple/toilet bowl rim experiment and I'm very interested in reading about it. Can you give me a link? Thanks!

  7. #7
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    Shadow wrote:

    In all my posting from day one until today, I have never accused a Ramsey of killing JBR -- mainly because I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and because never once did my FBI sources say they believed a Ramsey killed JBR. I will admit that I have always felt it a huge possibility that JBR was killed accidently, not by terrorist. Learnin's theory follows this logic.
    I think JonBenét Ramsey was killed accidentally too, Shadow, but I have no problem with saying I think it was Patsy Ramsey, her mother who was responsible for this accidental death. No one else was in the house. No one broke into this house through that ridiculous basement window with all that has been posted about it. Steve Thomas thinks this too!

    It is nice to see you back posting again. I'm thinking, it must have been an exciting job you had coming in contact with these FBI chaps.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  8. #8
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    Thanks Elle. After the pain I went thru for almost a year, I feel so good right now I almost can't believe it. I posted hardly at all at FFJ for months, but I felt so bad I went no where and even hardly watched TV (didn't even watch my team Duke win titles in basketball and lacrose) -- spent lots of time in bed.

    Yeah, I have to admit I really enjoyed my almost 40 year career as a government contractor. Worked with NASA, EPA, GSA, NSA, CIA, FBI, DEA, DoD, and all branches of the military. I knew lots of stuff most people in this country didn't know (and still don't), but I couldn't even discuss it with my wife. As far as the JBR case is concerned, while I had a couple of "sources" at Quantico, most of my case info came from my S-I-L's dad (now deceased) who got his info from field agents.

    Getting "inside" info while it was happening was cool... I remember my buddy Bad BobC and I had kind of a credibility contest one time. BobC had "inside" info from a friend at a Boulder law firm that the GJ was going to indict Patsy. My FBI sources were saying "no indictment unless the Ramseys testify under oath before the GJ. Then long shot." Of course, we know how that worked out.

    Anyway, glad to be able to talk to you!!
    “Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason.” -- Anonymous

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Thanks Elle. After the pain I went thru for almost a year, I feel so good right now I almost can't believe it. I posted hardly at all at FFJ for months, but I felt so bad I went no where and even hardly watched TV (didn't even watch my team Duke win titles in basketball and lacrose) -- spent lots of time in bed.

    Yeah, I have to admit I really enjoyed my almost 40 year career as a government contractor. Worked with NASA, EPA, GSA, NSA, CIA, FBI, DEA, DoD, and all branches of the military. I knew lots of stuff most people in this country didn't know (and still don't), but I couldn't even discuss it with my wife. As far as the JBR case is concerned, while I had a couple of "sources" at Quantico, most of my case info came from my S-I-L's dad (now deceased) who got his info from field agents.

    Getting "inside" info while it was happening was cool... I remember my buddy Bad BobC and I had kind of a credibility contest one time. BobC had "inside" info from a friend at a Boulder law firm that the GJ was going to indict Patsy. My FBI sources were saying "no indictment unless the Ramseys testify under oath before the GJ. Then long shot." Of course, we know how that worked out.

    Anyway, glad to be able to talk to you!!
    Pain of any kind on a regular basis is hard to take, Shadow, and for almost a year is just too long. I remember one of your posts stating just how much pain you were in. Sincerely hope you can enjoy your life much better now.

    I haven't seen Bob Cooksie posting for quite some time now. I always enjoyed his posts too. I was jealous of you and your FBI friends and wished I had a few. Yes, the Grand Jury was a disappointment.

    Hopefully some of your old friends will see your post and respond Shadow. Meanwhile, as you stated, Learnin came up with this latest apple experiment. I found this very interesting too!.

    A deeper investigation needs to come from the Boulder Police. Fingers crossed.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  10. #10
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    Thumbs up Shadow,

    Me too! I'm happy for you that you are now pain free after so much pain. Being no stranger to pain I rejoice with you.

    Yes, this latest experiment with the apple is interesting. I agree with Elle in that I think Patsy is good for it even though I also believe it was an accident. I think she/they panicked after a head blow that was purely accidental. So instead of calling 911 for medical help they rushed around with what we are left with to ponder. So far it has worked for them even though it has wrecked their life.

    I hope the latest BPD shuffle into the evidence with "new" eyes will get all of us an indictment. We still can dream can't we?
    "When are we going to get our heads out of the sand and understand that sometimes really nice people who look good on the outside are dastardly on the inside." Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, MA

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Excellent post, Learnin. This is the most practical believable theory for me. This was one very good experiment, with the third strike producing the same indentation on JonBenét's skull.

    Reverend Harrington, like all the others, kept his mouth shut.

    thanks, Elle

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Very interesting, learnin. I have been posting, off and on, at the JW Forum and FFJ since shortly after JW was created. During the early years, I had "inside" info because my S-I-L's father worked in the FBI Labs at headquarters in DC. Having done lab work for field agents all over the place, including Denver, he kept me informed on what the FBI thought about the JBR case. Bottom line:

    1- FBI Agents thought the actions of the Ramseys "strange" for parents whose daughter was killed;

    2- questioned why John Ramsey called 911 instead of LM security or FBI (he was an executive of a company that supported the Dept of Defense and initial evidence was his daughter had been "kidnapped" by terrorist -- ample reason for the FBI to lead the investigation until proven not a terrorist action against a defense contractor executive);

    3- had a lot of confidence in Steve Thomas (I think he was offered a job at one time), and felt he was "headed-in-the-right-direction";

    4- felt the DA's office was impeding the investigation (e.g., offered to give the Ramsey's lawyers all evidence in return for just talking to LE -- FBI talked DA out of this "crazy" idea -- I believe they later gave lawyers Ramsey statements but not "evidence" to agree to interviews);

    5- not only felt the Ramseys should have been called to testify under oath in front of the GJ but told the DA's office so, and was ignored;

    6- most of their suggestions were ignored; and

    7- privately felt that an obstruction of justice investigation should have been launched by the Colorado AG's Office.

    In all my posting from day one until today, I have never accused a Ramsey of killing JBR -- mainly because I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and because never once did my FBI sources say they believed a Ramsey killed JBR. I will admit that I have always felt it a huge possibility that JBR was killed accidently, not by terrorist. Learnin's theory follows this logic.

    While I still read these threads, I haven't posted on the case in a long time because I've felt that we are ploughing the same rows. Learnin got my interest. And the discussion of "the good Rev's" actions reminded me of the FBI's comments about the lack of cooperation of those one would think would be doing anything to catch the killer. Interesting stuff...
    Thanks for filling me in on those FBI points. I always tend to look at behavior as much as anything to tip me off as to what is going on. I know behavior won't get a conviction but it's very revealing, no?

    Like you, I don't know exactly who did it or what precipitated the event but I'm certain of one thing. John or Patsy, or both, knew what happened.



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