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  1. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    Hi Learnin! I seem to have missed your apple/toilet bowl rim experiment and I'm very interested in reading about it. Can you give me a link? Thanks!
    Hi, Karen. My short experiment was presented on the first post of this thread. The thing about the toilet rim is that it is most curved in the front portion. This means that, if a skull struck it, it would only come in contact with a few inches since it is curved so much at the front of the stool.

  2. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Thanks Elle. After the pain I went thru for almost a year, I feel so good right now I almost can't believe it. I posted hardly at all at FFJ for months, but I felt so bad I went no where and even hardly watched TV (didn't even watch my team Duke win titles in basketball and lacrose) -- spent lots of time in bed.

    Yeah, I have to admit I really enjoyed my almost 40 year career as a government contractor. Worked with NASA, EPA, GSA, NSA, CIA, FBI, DEA, DoD, and all branches of the military. I knew lots of stuff most people in this country didn't know (and still don't), but I couldn't even discuss it with my wife. As far as the JBR case is concerned, while I had a couple of "sources" at Quantico, most of my case info came from my S-I-L's dad (now deceased) who got his info from field agents.

    Getting "inside" info while it was happening was cool... I remember my buddy Bad BobC and I had kind of a credibility contest one time. BobC had "inside" info from a friend at a Boulder law firm that the GJ was going to indict Patsy. My FBI sources were saying "no indictment unless the Ramseys testify under oath before the GJ. Then long shot." Of course, we know how that worked out.

    Anyway, glad to be able to talk to you!!
    Hey, Shadow. Your Duke team beat my Kansas State team earlier this year. I was in attendance at the Sprint Center in Kansas City. Too bad Irving got hurt, he was one heck of a player.

    Your resume is impressive....must have really been an interesting job....

  3. #15

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    I'd be interested in hearing what any of you think the significance is of John lawyering up his ex in Atlanta, and their kids, while Patsy's in laws were not.

    It seems to me that this must indicate something.

  4. #16
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    Exclamation Learning,

    Wow! Now there is a great question. I think I've had that one niggling around in my brain for a second or two but way back when.

    The only thing that comes to my mind is that the first Mrs. Ramsey is the mother of JAR. And just perhaps she may know of his absolute whereabouts on the day in question or know about any abuse he may have inflicted on JBR. Also there may have been something between John and her that he didn't want out in public. Did their daughter who died from the auto accident die while he was still married to her or when he was married to Patsy? Perhaps that is the connection. Just random thoughts here.

    There are many strange things in this case and I always thought that to be one of the strange things. (EX....flashlight with no prints inside or out, calling the neighborhood over to visit at the crime scene that morning to name just a few.)
    "When are we going to get our heads out of the sand and understand that sometimes really nice people who look good on the outside are dastardly on the inside." Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, MA

  5. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    I'd be interested in hearing what any of you think the significance is of John lawyering up his ex in Atlanta, and their kids, while Patsy's in laws were not.

    It seems to me that this must indicate something.
    I think he did that because he knew his ex would be asked by LE to provide proof that JAR was actually with her Christmas Day, i.e. a photograph. The fuzzy ATM photo was from the previous day, and JAR's face is not visible. The lawyer for JAR was for the same reason. He knew LE would focus on him as well. As soon as you lawyer up, LE can no longer talk to you. They have to go through your lawyer, and as we saw with Patsy, your lawyer won't allow you to answer any questions that may implicate you in the crime.
    I am sure JR's ex could prove SHE was in Atlanta, but by having her own lawyer, it ensured that she would not have to provide any photos.
    Likewise, I am sure Nedra could prove she was in Atlanta. Are we sure that Grandpa P did not have a lawyer? There has been some discussion about whether he was actually in Boulder Christmas Day.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  6. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by zoomama View Post
    Wow! Now there is a great question. I think I've had that one niggling around in my brain for a second or two but way back when.

    The only thing that comes to my mind is that the first Mrs. Ramsey is the mother of JAR. And just perhaps she may know of his absolute whereabouts on the day in question or know about any abuse he may have inflicted on JBR. Also there may have been something between John and her that he didn't want out in public. Did their daughter who died from the auto accident die while he was still married to her or when he was married to Patsy? Perhaps that is the connection. Just random thoughts here.

    There are many strange things in this case and I always thought that to be one of the strange things. (EX....flashlight with no prints inside or out, calling the neighborhood over to visit at the crime scene that morning to name just a few.)
    I've kicked this around for some time. I, like you, wonder if it might have a connection with JAR. For some reason, I just can't let him go. There was his semen on that blanket in the suitcase. The summer after the death, I believe, the police spotted JAR, intoxicated, in the area of the campus hill riots. When they told him he'd better go home, he said something like: "Yea, I've got enough problems already." Or something like that.

    Whatever, I believe it's significant that he lawyered up his ex and not his inlaws....

  7. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    I think he did that because he knew his ex would be asked by LE to provide proof that JAR was actually with her Christmas Day, i.e. a photograph. The fuzzy ATM photo was from the previous day, and JAR's face is not visible. The lawyer for JAR was for the same reason. He knew LE would focus on him as well. As soon as you lawyer up, LE can no longer talk to you. They have to go through your lawyer, and as we saw with Patsy, your lawyer won't allow you to answer any questions that may implicate you in the crime.
    I am sure JR's ex could prove SHE was in Atlanta, but by having her own lawyer, it ensured that she would not have to provide any photos.
    Likewise, I am sure Nedra could prove she was in Atlanta. Are we sure that Grandpa P did not have a lawyer? There has been some discussion about whether he was actually in Boulder Christmas Day.

    Good points. But that's just it, isn't it. We know that Grandma Paugh spoke freely with the police while John's ex, and JAR and the Atlanta Reverend were all hiding behind lawyers. This makes me wonder. If Patsy did it, why wasn't Grandma Paugh lawyered up also???? Had JAR told John's ex things about Patsy? Just thinking out loud.

  8. #20
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    Here's a recap of John Ramsey'"lawyering up" thanks to "Little!"

    "JonBenét" Steve Thomas

    98

    John Ramsey was keeping his mouth shut, but his money was talking
    loudly.

    Certainly everyone has the right to hire a lawyer and the right to
    remain silent, and I could not blame someone with a lot of money for
    hiring an attorney with impeccable credentials. But Ramsey had gone
    far beyond protecting his interests. What he had done would be un-
    heard of in most big cities, even in the largest police investigations, and
    he simply overwhelmed a little town like Boulder.
    Starting only a few hours after he found the body of his daughter, he
    retreated into a legal stronghold that could not be cracked. At least, not
    by us.

    Hal Haddon of Denver had been the chief trial deputy in the state
    public defender's office before going into partnership with two other
    attorneys, Bryan Morgan (the friend and occasional breakfast partner of
    Pete Hofstrom in the DA's office) and Lee Foreman, in 1976. Eight
    years later, when Colorado Senator Gary Hart failed spectacularly in
    his presidential bid, Haddon was his campaign manager. His candidate
    crashed, but Haddon was left plugged into the Democratic Party political
    network, particularly in Colorado. In the nineties, as the attorney
    for Rockwell International, he engineered a plea bargain as a grand jury
    investigated the company for alleged environmental crimes at the
    Rocky Flats nuclear weapons plant just outside Boulder. The deal so
    enraged the grand jurors that they leaked their secret report to the press.
    Ramsey hired Haddon.
    99
    Bryan Morgan of Boulder was no stranger to law enforcement, partially
    from his representation of a woman named Lee Lindsley in a case
    several years before. Police responding to her early morning 911 call
    had found the snow around the house undisturbed and her physician
    husband shot to death. She was charged with murder, but Morgan
    successfully argued that two intruders did it, and Lindsley was acquitted.
    She moved to Atlanta and taught at the elementary school attended by
    the older children of John Ramsey. The Lindsley and Ramsey cases had
    a lot of similarities, including a claim of an intruder and the same
    defense attorney, but Deputy DA Trip DeMuth, in an extraordinary
    decision, forbade my pursuing that line. "The case is sealed," he said. We
    had never intended to razor-blade open the file but thought to interview
    some of the major participants. "Don't go near it." Ramsey hired
    Morgan.
    John Ramsey hired Patrick Burke of Denver to represent Patsy.
    Burke had once worked with Pat Furman, a professor of law at the
    University of Colorado, to gain acquittal for a man allegedly involved
    in the white supremacist slaying of Denver talk-show host Alan Berg.
    Ramsey hired Furman, too. The police found it particularly interesting
    that John and Patsy would be represented by separate attorneys, a move
    that can indicate a possible conflict of interest between the parties.
    A lawyer was needed in Atlanta for the family members back there,
    and someone suggested Jim Jenkins, one of the top lawyers in Georgia.
    Ramsey hired Jenkins.
    The private investigative firm of Ellis Armistead in Denver was
    brought aboard. Pat Korten, a public relations specialist in Washington,
    D.C., was hired to deal with the press. Handwriting experts were hired.
    And John Douglas, a former FBI profiler who had spent a career getting
    into the minds ofki11ers, was hired.
    We referred to the whole pack as Team Ramsey, and although the
    attorneys resented being called "defense lawyers," that's precisely what
    they were, as one would later openly declare.
    One of the first bitter tastes of their new media-spinning strategy
    came on the first Sunday of January, when Pat Korten, their PR man,
    used the dignified surroundings of St. John's Church in Boulder for a
    photo op. After the solemn service, John and Patsy did not leave
    through the usual eastside exit but instead walked out through the front
    doors and straight into waiting press cameras. The church had been
    used to help create an image of a grieving father and mother.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  9. #21
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    Off case… Learnin, one of my best friends graduated from K State. He worked for me on the space program in Huntsville AL and later became an executive with LM in Denver. He lived in Littleton (where the infamous school killings took place), and believe it or not, he was John Ramsey’s boss when JBR was killed. We never, never discussed the case.

    All this is bringing back interesting stuff that I had completely forgotten like JR lawyering-up EX, and Robert Ressler and Van Horn going on TV talk shows to counter John Douglas’ “the Ramseys are innocent” propaganda coming from ex-FBI.

    Hey, I think Duke is still pretty good without Irving, but they “could have been a contender” with him.
    “Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason.” -- Anonymous

  10. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Off case… Learnin, one of my best friends graduated from K State. He worked for me on the space program in Huntsville AL and later became an executive with LM in Denver. He lived in Littleton (where the infamous school killings took place), and believe it or not, he was John Ramsey’s boss when JBR was killed. We never, never discussed the case.

    All this is bringing back interesting stuff that I had completely forgotten like JR lawyering-up EX, and Robert Ressler and Van Horn going on TV talk shows to counter John Douglas’ “the Ramseys are innocent” propaganda coming from ex-FBI.

    Hey, I think Duke is still pretty good without Irving, but they “could have been a contender” with him.

    Very interesting, Shadow...it's a small world. Duke is still good, I agree. But Irving was really something...I think they were truly #1 with him....

  11. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Off case… Learnin, one of my best friends graduated from K State. He worked for me on the space program in Huntsville AL and later became an executive with LM in Denver. He lived in Littleton (where the infamous school killings took place), and believe it or not, he was John Ramsey’s boss when JBR was killed. We never, never discussed the case.

    All this is bringing back interesting stuff that I had completely forgotten like JR lawyering-up EX, and Robert Ressler and Van Horn going on TV talk shows to counter John Douglas’ “the Ramseys are innocent” propaganda coming from ex-FBI.

    Hey, I think Duke is still pretty good without Irving, but they “could have been a contender” with him.
    Hey, Shadow, good to see you posting. Love your avatar, as well. Very black helicopter.

    Are you saying your friend worked for Lockheed Martin, OVER John Ramsey? I guess I'm wondering how that hierarchy went...?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
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    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  12. #24
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    Finally some activity over here! I was getting worried...
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.



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