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  1. #49
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    I believe a felony murder is when it happens during the committing of anther crime. (sexual abuse of a child?)
    Murder One is premeditated, and I don't believe that is the case here.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  2. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I'm a bit confused because today you posted an article on the Smika murder case that is current to this year, which does mention a bond for Smika on a first-degree murder charge. Is the distinction a first-degree murder vs a felony murder charge?
    No, there is no distinction with respect to the two in terms of being non-bailable offenses. Felony murder carries all of the ramifications of first-degree murder.
    You are right to be confused with respect to Smika’s bond being set at 5 million dollars.
    There are a couple of reasons why this may have happened.
    The bond may have been set for other charges relating to the case in addition to murder.
    or
    The bond may have been set arbitrarily by the judge as a consequence of a review of the evidence presented for probable cause. If prosecutors do not wish to reveal too much of their case in an arrest warrant, they sometimes skimp on details that ultimately may cause a judge to decide that setting bail is more justified.

    It’s part of this Colorado law:
    CRS 16-4-101. Bailable offenses
    (1) All persons shall be bailable by sufficient sureties except:
    (a) For capital offenses when proof is evident or presumption is great…

    http://www.dibailbondssouth.com/colo...ail-bond-laws/

    This means that in a potential murder case, such as the Smika case, the judge must be convinced by the evidence shown to him by the prosecution before he decides to issue an arrest warrant without the possibility of bail. To cover their behinds, they usually set the bail extremely high as they did here. If the prosecution is not happy with the decision they have the option of submitting a motion to rescind bail at a bail hearing.

    Here are examples of what I said above, and hopefully this will clarify things:


    No bail for murder, bail set for other charges
    Mar. 06, 2011
    Carmen Barahona, charged with murder, appears in Miami-Dade court
    BY JAWEED KALEEM, MiamiHerald.com

    Speechless, sullen and looking exhausted, Carmen Barahona made her first court appearance Sunday afternoon in front of a judge to face charges in the death of her adopted 10-year-old daughter, who was found dead on Valentine’s Day along Interstate 95.
    Barahona, 60, whose husband, Jorge Barahona, was found passed out with his dead daughter stuffed in a trash bag and her twin brother drenched with toxic chemicals along the highway in West Palm Beach, appeared in front of a judge from jail via closed-circuit television.
    Judge Charles Johnson told Barahona at the bond hearing that she was charged with murder along with seven counts of aggravated assault and child abuse and also seven counts of child neglect, The judge set bond for the abuse charges, but not for the murder charge.
    No family or private lawyer came to court Sunday and after the brief hearing, which lasted no more than a few minutes, Carmen Barahona returned to jail, where she will later meet with a public defender.
    Miami-Dade police and prosecutors took over the death investigation after the son, Victor, suggested to detectives that his sister Nubia’s injuries were inflicted inside the family’s West Miami-Dade home. Victor was released last week from Jackson Memorial Hospital’s burn unit and is said to be recovering well in a therapeutic foster home.
    Carmen Barahona, who had been questioned by police extensively about what happened to the twins in her home, was not charged until Saturday, when she was arrested by Miami-Dade police.
    Details of her arrest, which was carried out under a sealed warrant, were not available Sunday. Miami-Dade police plan a press conference on Monday morning about the arrest.
    Jorge Barahona remains in Palm Beach County Jail with no bail on charges of attempted murder and aggravated child abuse.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/03/0...#ixzz1Ou3j9ln4

    No bail for teen accused in killing
    by BILL HETHCOCK THE GAZETTE

    A Monument teenager accused of killing his grandmother will stay in jail until his trial, a judge ruled Friday, despite new evidence that suggests the shooting might have been accidental.
    Christopher Paul, who is being tried as an adult, is charged with first-degree murder and faces life in prison. He is being held without bail pending his Sept. 26 trial in 4th Judicial District Court.

    Prosecutors say Paul, who was 15 at the time, shot Jacqueline Jean Paul, 74, in the head while she slept April 26, 2004, in the family's house at 2215 Wakonda Way in Monument.
    Ann Kaufman, one of Paul's lawyers, asked Judge David Shakes on Friday to set bond, as required by law unless the judge finds a strong likelihood that he will be convicted of first-degree murder.
    Kaufman pointed to new crime scene evidence indicating the shooting didn't happen the way El Paso County sheriff's investigators and prosecutors have argued it did.
    Prosecutors had theorized that Paul, a ninth-grader at Lewiser High School, intentionally shot his grandmother with his father's .22 rifle while standing over her as she lay in bed.
    But crime scene technicians who examined the bullet trajectory, entry and exit wounds, the bed height and the position of the grandmother's body concluded the rifle was waist high -- not shoulder level -- when fired.
    The information bolsters Christopher Paul's early statements that the shooting was accidental, Kaufman said.
    When interrogated hours after the shooting, Paul first told a sheriff's investigator that an intruder shot his grandmother. He then said he accidentally shot her.
    When questioned further, Paul said he intentionally shot her because he was embarrassed at the prospect of her accompanying him to school as punishment.
    Kaufman said the investigator coerced him into confessing.
    "Nobody said Christopher Paul was upset with his grandmother, that he wanted to kill his grandmother or that he didn't want his grandmother to go to school with him," Kaufman said. "That was all made up -- conjecture -- by the Sheriff's Office."
    Prosecutor Diana May said the evidence doesn't rule out the possibility that pertinent parts of Paul's confession are true. May pointed out that Jacqueline Paul was shot in the head, which, she said, seems coincidental for an accidental shooting.
    The investigator wasn't coercing a confession but pressing for the truth, May said.
    Shakes said the fact that Jacqueline Paul was shot in the head and that Christopher Paul said he fantasized about killing her convinced him he should be held without bail.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../?tag=untagged


    Superior's Stephanie Rochester denied bond; faces murder charge Monday
    By Vanessa Miller, Daily Camera staff writer, 06/03/2010

    A 34-year-old Superior mother accused of her baby's murder -- a woman described as "lovely and sweet and consistent" who may have suffered from postpartum depression and "snapped" -- was told Thursday that she can't leave jail because the charge against her means she's not entitled to bail.
    Stephanie Rochester, wearing a pale blue suicide smock and drying her tear-stained eyes under wire-rimmed glasses, made her first appearance Thursday before a Boulder County District Court judge. The judge told Rochester she must return to court Monday to be formally charged.
    Rochester was arrested Tuesday night, just hours after she and her husband, Lloyd Rochester, brought their unresponsive 6-month-old baby boy, Rylan Richard Rochester, to Avista Hospital in Louisville, where he was pronounced dead.
    She was being held in the Boulder County Jail on $750,000 bond on suspicion of first-degree murder and child abuse resulting in death until prosecutors filed a motion arguing that Rochester should be held without bail because first-degree murder is a capital offense.

    Details about why authorities arrested Rochester have been sealed in a warrant for 10 days. The District Attorney's Office has filed a motion to have it unsealed, but the judge has indicated that she'll wait to rule on the motion until the defense has a chance to respond by Wednesday.

    http://www.coloradodaily.com/ci_1521...#axzz1Ou9mL6rZ

    Man Charged With 3 Shootings, Including Slaying Of Ex-Wife's Suspected Lover
    Posted By Justin Adams, News Editor TheDenverChannel.com February 13, 2011

    COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. -- Bail has been set at $10 million for a man indicted in the slaying of his ex-wife's suspected lover and the attempted murder of his ex-wife's divorce attorney and the judge who presided over his divorce. Bruce Nozolino, a 49-year-old Colorado Springs anti-tax activist, is charged with first-degree murder in the Nov. 30, 2008, slaying of Richard Schreiner, a man whom prosecutors say was having an affair with Nozolino's then-wife.
    Nozolino is charged with two counts of attempted murder in a Jan. 23, 2002, shooting that wounded divorce attorney John Ciccolella, leaving him blind in one eye, and in the shooting into Judge Gilbert Martinez's home on Oct. 13, 2001.
    Arapahoe County Chief District Judge William Sylvester set bail after telling prosecutors they don't have enough evidence to hold Nozolino without bail.


    Schreiner was found shot near his Stetson Hills home while shoveling snow. He had just finished shoveling his own drive and was walking down the street to shovel his mother's drive and sidewalk when he was shot and killed, according to police.
    Police also said at the time they didn't believe that the shooting was a random act.
    Prosecutors say Schriener's slaying happened a little over a month after Nozolino was stripped of his government security clearance, ending his high-paying software engineering job with Lockheed Martin.

    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...62/detail.html
    Last edited by cynic; June 11, 2011, 9:21 pm at Sat Jun 11 21:21:39 UTC 2011.

  3. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    I believe a felony murder is when it happens during the committing of anther crime. (sexual abuse of a child?)
    Murder One is premeditated, and I don't believe that is the case here.
    Absolutely right. Premeditation is not a required element, and it has to happen during the commission of, furtherance of, or escape from a qualifying underlying felony.
    Colorado (Col. Rev. Stat. Sec. 18-3-102)
    It is first degree murder for someone, acting alone or with others to (1) commit or attempt to commit arson, robbery, burglary, kidnapping, sexual assault, class 3 felony sexual assault on a child, or escape and (2) in the course of or in furtherance of the crime or in immediate flight from it, anyone causes the death of a person other than one of the participants. The crime is subject to the death penalty or life in prison.
    http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-r-0087.htm
    Last edited by cynic; June 11, 2011, 6:38 pm at Sat Jun 11 18:38:18 UTC 2011.

  4. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    But I trust you know the dates of the law you've cited, and therefore they'd have applied to this case back in 1996. Your sources of Beckner's comments about felony murder would seem to confirm that, as well.
    It was definitely applicable in 1996/1997.
    It's kind of interesting that it was the talking-head lawyers who discussed this case on TV every night for years who said it couldn't be tried in Colorado without specific persons being charged with the actual individual elements of the crime. I'll give Darnay this: he was the first of them to state that DA Hunter had "no will to prosecute." That was spot on.
    Outside of the legal “Dream Team” assembled by Thomas and the BPD, it seemed as if Darnay was the only other lawyer who seemed to be willing to discuss the prospect of prosecuting the Ramseys on a felony murder angle.
    Personally, I think that a lot of people have made the case much more complicated than it really is, especially the vast majority of the talking heads.
    I also agree that sitting in jail for a couple of years might have given Patsy something to think about. I don't know that she'd ever have broken and told the truth, not with her law team and connections. Since I firmly believe she was involved up to her dog collar, talking would only have helped her if she'd made a deal to rat out John. I can't see her doing that. But at least it would have been some time behind bars to face who she was and what she'd done.
    Perhaps I’m a bit more naively hopeful, but I think that PR might have cracked, although I believe that it would be strictly dependant on how quickly after JonBenet’s death they were arrested. As time went on and they became more emotionally detached from the events of that night, it would be far less likely, IMO.


    A prosecutor should have rolled the dice on this case. Win or lose, at least they could have tried to make the case, to get justice and the truth to light instead of burying it for all time. If they thought that the Ramseys were not "real criminals" and this was a fluke, sorry, NOT THEIR JOB to decide guilt or innocence. That's the jury's job. And what about all the truly innocent people whose lives were so wrongly impacted after being labeled "suspect" by Team Ramsey?
    I could not agree more, what were they waiting for??? (A spine comes to mind.) Sure, it would not have been an easy case, but it was winnable.
    They deserve for the evidence to be revealed in court--and if not there, then in a FOIA dump.
    Ah yes, a FOIA dump would be awesome.
    But no way would the powers-that-be in Boulder have put Patsy Ramsey in jail and on trial: she was just too rich, too sympathetic, and they already have a long history of letting rich people get away with murder in Colorado.
    I agree, ultimately any discussion of prosecuting the Ramseys in Boulder at that time falls into the realm of fiction or fantasy, but it’s nice to dream?

  5. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    So the argument Darnay and Chief Beckner made was that Patsy Ramsey could have been charged and convicted with felony murder if it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that she wrote the ransom note, and if it was proven that the child was being sexually abused on and/or prior to the night she was murdered, and Patsy wrote the note to aid in covering both crimes...sort of like driving the getaway car?

    I've mangled that a bit, haven't I?
    Not at all, thatís an excellent summary.

    Letís fit it into the statute:
    Colorado (Col. Rev. Stat. Sec. 18-3-102)
    It is first degree murder for someone, acting alone or with others to (1) commit or attempt to commit arson, robbery, burglary, kidnapping, sexual assault, class 3 felony sexual assault on a child, or escape and (2) in the course of or in furtherance of the crime or in immediate flight from it, anyone causes the death of a person other than one of the participants. The crime is subject to the death penalty or life in prison.


    Here is how Patsy fits in:

    It is first degree murder for Patsy Ramsey, acting alone or with John Ramsey in furtherance of the crime of class 3 felony sexual assault on a child to cause the death of JonBenet Ramsey. The crime is subject to the death penalty or life in prison.

  6. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Have you been reading about the case of Hunter's son's accidental death from drug overdose? I recently read an interview with Hunter in a follow-up article about that tragic death, and Hunter was as deliberately abstruse as ever. He's either spent too many decades evading or bargaining away his duties as a prosecutor to be able to look at his own son's death with clarity, or the man is just a bona fide liar. The pattern of obstructing the truth is clearly his leading position.

    I've posted the various items about the death of John Hunter-Hauck from drug overdose here to update this tragic story: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...629#post187629
    I was aware of the story, but I havenít been following up in terms of any subsequent updates. Thanks for the info.
    It certainly seems that either he didnít read the police report or is refusing to accept its findings.

  7. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    It was definitely applicable in 1996/1997.

    Outside of the legal “Dream Team” assembled by Thomas and the BPD, it seemed as if Darnay was the only other lawyer who seemed to be willing to discuss the prospect of prosecuting the Ramseys on a felony murder angle.
    Personally, I think that a lot of people have made the case much more complicated than it really is, especially the vast majority of the talking heads.
    I agree. The campaign to stop this case from being prosecuted started the night of the murder. It continued until it was no longer feasible, after Patsy died. Lacy's arrest of PERV Karr was nothing more than an attempt to finish what Hunter began: destroying the truth for the benefit of the Ramsey family.

    Perhaps I’m a bit more naively hopeful, but I think that PR might have cracked, although I believe that it would be strictly dependant on how quickly after JonBenet’s death they were arrested. As time went on and they became more emotionally detached from the events of that night, it would be far less likely, IMO.
    I think had Boulder LE followed even the most rudimentary investigative protocol and taken the Ramseys in for questioning that day, or arrested them if they refused, we might have had this case solved before most of us even heard of it. Add in the simple investigative collection of evidence in the way of the Ramsey's phone records immediately, I have NO DOUBT it would have been over, as I believe there were phone calls made that night during the time the Ramseys claimed to be sleeping.

    But now we'll never know, and that's how the back room dealers wanted it, IMO.

    I agree, ultimately any discussion of prosecuting the Ramseys in Boulder at that time falls into the realm of fiction or fantasy, but it’s nice to dream?
    While watching the Casey Anthony trial, I find myself thinking this is similar to what a Ramsey trial would have looked like, had the FBI taken over their legal jurisdiction until the body was found, and had the BPD investigators been allowed to investigate unhampered by Alex "Let's make a back room deal" Hunter.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

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  8. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    Not at all, thatís an excellent summary.

    Letís fit it into the statute:
    Colorado (Col. Rev. Stat. Sec. 18-3-102)
    It is first degree murder for someone, acting alone or with others to (1) commit or attempt to commit arson, robbery, burglary, kidnapping, sexual assault, class 3 felony sexual assault on a child, or escape and (2) in the course of or in furtherance of the crime or in immediate flight from it, anyone causes the death of a person other than one of the participants. The crime is subject to the death penalty or life in prison.


    Here is how Patsy fits in:

    It is first degree murder for Patsy Ramsey, acting alone or with John Ramsey in furtherance of the crime of class 3 felony sexual assault on a child to cause the death of JonBenet Ramsey. The crime is subject to the death penalty or life in prison.

    I would love to have seen that case presented to a jury. Whoever was sexually assaulting the child before that night, it would have been appallingly clear to a jury that Patsy was helping cover it all up.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    I was aware of the story, but I haven’t been following up in terms of any subsequent updates. Thanks for the info.
    It certainly seems that either he didn’t read the police report or is refusing to accept its findings.
    Or he's just covering up the ugly details, as is his pattern when he doesn't want the truth to be revealed or illegal actions to be exposed.

    John Hunter-Hauck was a minor still, 20 years old. His birthday was in June, but he died in May. So how did he get the alcohol that was found in his system, which was .212?

    Also, I doubt very seriously that this was the first time John used alcohol, and possibly drugs, since it is alleged that the friend said Hunter-Hauck snorted the oxycontin, a much more dangerous way to use it as it has no time-release in that application.

    If his friend was with John when he stole oxycontin from Hunter's cabinet and knew about it, observed John using the allegedly stolen drug and used it himself, is that not a crime?

    But Hunter again chooses which laws are followed and which are prosecuted. Do you think that any other persons committing those offenses would have gotten off without so much as an indictment when it all resulted in the death of a young man? If those young men had been of a different class, I have no doubt the investigation would have gone another way, IMO.

    In the land of Hunter, the law has no blindfold. It's selectively applied, depending on whom it is that is the law-breaker, apparently. I have to wonder if his son's illegal behavior was informed as a result of knowing he would have no consequences if caught--and never thinking that so young a death would be his final judge.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    But Hunter again chooses which laws are followed and which are prosecuted. Do you think that any other persons committing those offenses would have gotten off without so much as an indictment when it all resulted in the death of a young man? If those young men had been of a different class, I have no doubt the investigation would have gone another way, IMO.

    In the land of Hunter, the law has no blindfold. It's selectively applied, depending on whom it is that is the law-breaker, apparently. I have to wonder if his son's illegal behavior was informed as a result of knowing he would have no consequences if caught--and never thinking that so young a death would be his final judge.
    I was wondering how many favors would need to be called in if it wasn’t John Hunter that died, but rather his friend who also took some of the stolen Oxycontin (from John.) Can you imagine? Possession and distribution of a controlled substance, criminal negligence causing death, very serious indeed; I guess if the favors didn’t work out, Alex would have had to use the services of Haddon, Morgan and Foreman to defend his son. It’s the circle of life.
    Last edited by cynic; June 13, 2011, 11:33 pm at Mon Jun 13 23:33:41 UTC 2011.

  11. #59

    Default Talk about irony....

    Hindsight...is sometimes BRILLIANT!

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...6618#post96618


    1977 Contestant Bio Page Entry for Patsy Paugh

    (Patsy's photo is highlighted with blue.)

    NOTE: The biographical information printed below the photo reads as follows:

    Miss West Virginia
    Patricia Ann Paugh

    Parkersburgh
    West Virginia University, Junior
    Born: December 29th, 1956
    Major Subject: Advertising
    Talent: Author/Duo Acting

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  12. #60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Hindsight...is sometimes BRILLIANT!

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...6618#post96618


    1977 Contestant Bio Page Entry for Patsy Paugh

    (Patsy's photo is highlighted with blue.)

    NOTE: The biographical information printed below the photo reads as follows:

    Miss West Virginia
    Patricia Ann Paugh

    Parkersburgh
    West Virginia University, Junior
    Born: December 29th, 1956
    Major Subject: Advertising
    Talent: Author/Duo Acting
    Quite ironic, nice bit of memorabilia.
    Her best work would be about 19 years in the future. Her “talent” was all the more impressive by virtue of her ability to work under pressure.
    She did manage to “Light up the World” as well, the world's press, that is.
    Last edited by cynic; May 1, 2012, 9:19 pm at Tue May 1 21:19:15 UTC 2012.



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