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  1. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I love you and Cherokee to bits, but I'm going to strongly disagree with both of you.

    Lou Smit was a stupid, egotistical, ignorant jerk who used this case to get another power-fix, one last hoorah he rode to his grave. He not only wasn't a good detective, he was no detective at all.

    I've never seen another police detective break his contract and steal copies of evidence from the DA/People for whom he worked for the sole purpose of aiding suspects in getting away with a horrific crime--all while smiling like the grim reaper for the camera as he did so.

    Smit is just one more corrupted human being who sold his soul to the Ramsey Devil and never looked back. It had nothing to do with being a good detective--which clearly he wasn't. It had to do with being an old man with connections who used them to promote his own agenda, which obviously had to do with being famous, like so many sycophants in this case.

    Oops. Like I said before, Cherokee, if you want me to shut up: Because I'm too old and cranky to pull punches when so much injustice is bleeding all over our broken justice system.
    THAT was a disagreement? Ha! You basically said the same thing I did about old Lou but maybe with a bit more bite!

    KK, I will NEVER shut you up! I don't want you to pull punches. We NEED your voice to cry out in the wilderness of Ramsey injustice! As a mod, I sometimes have to couch my words, but you have free reign to vent your spleen, and I love the way you VENT!

    Signed,
    Cherokee, one of your biggest fans

  2. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    THAT was a disagreement? Ha! You basically said the same thing I did about old Lou but maybe with a bit more bite!

    KK, I will NEVER shut you up! I don't want you to pull punches. We NEED your voice to cry out in the wilderness of Ramsey injustice! As a mod, I sometimes have to couch my words, but you have free reign to vent your spleen, and I love the way you VENT!

    Signed,
    Cherokee, one of your biggest fans
    Yes, it was a huge disagreement! I vociferously disagree with your being so NICE about how awful that man really was.

    But I do understand the "mod" thing, which is why I could never, ever be one. However, we need you temperate people to keep the rest of us from tearing the place down in a fit.

    So I love you anyways!

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  3. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Good point, as usual, Learnin. You've made me think about this in a different light.

    The caller Rick specifically said "first thing" Patsy called the mayor. Since Rick was essentially sharing gossip--he'd heard this from officers he knew, he implies--we don't know if his source(s) told him a specific time when this call was made or just "first thing," more or less.

    But I do believe we can agree we've never heard or read from the various credible sources we have--books, interviews, etc.--that Patsy called anyone after the BPD arrived.

    I remember John called his pilot that morning--I believe he stated he called Archuleta to cancel the morning flight and to request Archuleta call the "big kids" who would be waiting in Minneapolis for them, but I'm not clear on exactly when this call was made. It seems it was after LE got to the residence, though. Then JR also called his pilot again after he "found" the body; this is a rather infamous call because he was ready to fly the family out of town and the BPD stopped him.

    But I don't recall any report Patsy called anyone after her initial 911 call and those to her many friends she invited over to hold vigil while the terrorists beheaded her child--they were monitoring the house closely, remember?

    So when could Patsy have called the mayor but before LE got there?

    Okay, let's start there, since it's all speculation anyway.

    So did Patsy call the mayor and ask for HELP calling off the BPD BEFORE police got there?

    I ask because think about that: she thinks her child is kidnapped, not in the home, and she calls the mayor to hamper LE in getting her child back alive from terrorists?

    See where this goes?

    How could Patsy possibly have called the mayor BEFORE LE even arrived and reasonably made that request? How could the mayor have asked the BPD to go easy on the Ramseys when so far, the Ramseys were the victims, not the perps? After all, a child's life was in the balance, complete with terrorists and a ransom note.

    Let's walk through it:

    Mayor: [just waking up] Hello?

    Patsy: Leslie, it's Patsy Ramsey. We have a kidnapping! My little girl--she's six years old, blonde--has been kidnapped! I've called 911 and the police are on their way! Can you help us?

    Mayor: Oh no! What can I do? Anything!

    Patsy: Can you call Chief Koby? Ask him to go easy on us, because we're so distraught!

    Mayor: What do you mean, go easy on you? What are they doing to you?

    Patsy: Oh, they're not here yet, but I just know they're going to be mean to us! Make them be nice!

    Mayor: Nice? I'm confused. They aren't there yet? What's going on?

    Patsy: Oh, a group of terrorist kidnapped JonBenet--it's all in the ransom note! They want money or they'll cut her head off!

    Mayor: Gosh! Let's get the FBI in on this!

    Patsy: NO! Um...I mean, the note says not to call police or they'll kill her. They're monitoring our house and our phones!

    Mayor: I thought you just said you called 911 and police are on their way?

    Patsy: Look, it's complicated! Just call Koby and tell him to cooperate with us! Okay? You're my cancer buddy! I'm counting on you! We need your help! Just tell Koby to do what we say and we'll take it from there! VICTORY!

    Mayor: Oh, alright. Anything for my rich friends.

    Patsy: Campaign contributions to come! Sorry, my Kidnap Party guests are arriving! Love you! [click]

    Mayor: [Hangs up. Calls Koby.] Chief Koby, so glad I got you. Have you heard about this kidnapping at the Ramsey house?

    Koby: No. Where did you hear this?

    Mayor: Patsy Ramsey just called me. She said her child has been kidnapped by terrorists who left a ransom note. She's called 911, so your guys should be there soon.

    Koby: Oh, chit! I better get dressed and get over to the department. We'll have to get the FBI in on this immediately. Thanks for calling me.

    Mayor: That's the thing, Kobes; don't call the FBI. There's a note threatening to kill the child if they call the police. She says they're being monitored.

    Koby: But you said they called 911 already.

    Mayor: I know. It's complicated, Patsy said. That's why I called you, because I have a favor to ask. Patsy is a close personal friend of mine. Her family has been through so much, so I want you to go easy on them.

    Koby: Of course, we're very sensitive to victims. But you say the child is missing? Kidnapped by terrorists? This doesn't sound good. It's going to get ugly, Leslie, one way or another, if that's true.

    Mayor: Just treat the Ramseys with kid gloves. They are powerful people; John works for Lockheed Martin and they'll tell you what to do. I'll owe you one.

    Koby: I see. We'll just let them handle it then.

    Mayor: Thanks. I'll catch up with you later. [Click.]

    Koby: [Click. Dials his dept.] Hello? This is Chief Koby. Who's in charge of the shift this morning? Put me through. [Busily getting his coffee made in background.] Hm...that donut looks good.... Hello, Chief Koby here. You got a call about a kidnapping at the Ramseys? Um huh.... Well, you tell French when he gets there, just park his marked car in front because the terrorists are monitoring the house and threatening to kill the baby, but the Ramseys already know what to do. You called who? When the FBI gets there, tell them to stand down, we're taking this one. Yeah, as a personal favor to the mayor. John Ramsey is a powerful man in this town, he works for Lockheed Martin, so just try to be helpful and they'll tell you what to do. I'll be there after I've had my breakfast and workout. No, don't sweat it, I'm sure the Ramseys have it all under control. Plus, we may get the office remodel we've been after for years. We might even get some new baseball team suits. Later. [Click.]

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    So is this how it might go in the People's Republic of Boulder? I'm afraid to say it's not that far-fetched from what we've seen.

    Or should we actually think these highly educated, very successful public servants might have a brain in their heads and ask intelligent questions? In which case, Patsy might have to come up with a better story than the way this one plays out in my head.

    I was kicking a dialogue over in my mind, kk, but I have to admit. You came up with a humdinger. If you could continue on with the dialogue up until John walked out to meet his children, you might have a laugh a minute novelette. But,as you say, it may not be all that far-fetched. Sometimes, we don't know whether to laugh or cry, no?

    I tend to think, if this phone call was made, that it was just a loose replay of the 911 call with heavy breathing and hysterics.

    Patsy: "My baby! My baby! They've taken my baby!" breathing, groaning..."Oh Jesus!"

    After the mayor manages to get a few details, she responds: "Have you called the police?"

    Patsy: "Yes, they're on their way...Oh Jesus, they've taken my baby!"

    Just enough, you know, to get the mayor extremely sympathetic toward a friend and a wife of a multi-millionaire with money and clout. IMO, Patsy wouldn't have to say a thing, wouldn't have to ask a thing. She knew the mayor would no doubt call police headquarters to check on what was being done and to mention that she knows this great upstanding family of wealth. And what friend and politician wouldn't relay that the lady is very distraught and should be handled gently.

    If you think about it, other than the 911 call, all the calls, to friends, were made, IMO, to distance Patsy from the police when the body was found. So, IMO, this mayor call makes all the sense in the world. Hell, if you have the money and the pull, why not use every card you're holding?

    These folks didn't miss a trick (except the pineapple). When I stop and think about their own private investigators (locking in the friends and finding out what they might know or think) already on the job that very evening, I am completely amazed at the wherewithal they were able to muster when faced with such a tragedy!

    I think the mayor call has a ring of truth in it. I have only one problem. I can't understand why ST didn't mention it in his book. Any thoughts?

  4. #52
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    As far as the pineapple, I honestly don't think they ever though it would be an issue. I think they NEVER realized it would be identified in the autopsy.

    As far as ST- I think he may have left a lot of the dirty tricks out for the same reason the DA lost his spine. Threats from the defense team. And he really just wanted to write about this case the way he saw it, and leave the mess in Boulder behind. He had to have been so disillusioned. He was a GOOD detective. The kind you want on a case. The kind who really cares about people and solving crimes. For him to leave LE forever says volumes about what went on in this case.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  5. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    As far as the pineapple, I honestly don't think they ever though it would be an issue. I think they NEVER realized it would be identified in the autopsy.

    As far as ST- I think he may have left a lot of the dirty tricks out for the same reason the DA lost his spine. Threats from the defense team. And he really just wanted to write about this case the way he saw it, and leave the mess in Boulder behind. He had to have been so disillusioned. He was a GOOD detective. The kind you want on a case. The kind who really cares about people and solving crimes. For him to leave LE forever says volumes about what went on in this case.
    I agree, DeeDee. If it was a bitter awakening for me to the duel justice system--one for the rich, one for the rest--I can only imagine how Thomas was disillusioned when it was his career and passion.

    Learnin, I will say that I wonder if Thomas still had loyalties to other BPD detectives he had worked with who were still on the job. If he revealed that the mayor was involved in the cover up because of a phone call from Patsy, that might open a-whole-nother can of worms. It could end in consequences perhaps that we don't know? While Thomas made the shocking sacrifice of his career to expose the corruption in the DA's Office, I don't remember him burning other BPD officers? He wasn't flattering to Beckner, but I don't remember any accusations of anything like deliberate obstruction. Just a thought.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  6. #54
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    Applause! Applause! for all these great posts on this thread. When one gets up too early it`s good to find something really worthwhile reading!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  7. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Thank you! These two 10 min. segments are BRILLIANT! Guttah gang, you HAVE to listen this this. It's not only fun, with a couple of the parody songs played in short excerpts, but Don rips Lisa Bloom's Team Ramsey talking points to shreds! YEAH, DON!

    To your point, cynic, where Don mentions he was "handed" a video spirited out of the [Boulder?] Justice Center where the aforementioned matches to Patsy's writing were revealed, I'd like to say:

    WHY HAVEN'T WE SEEN THIS TAPE?

    I'm sorry. I know Cina worked hard on her handwriting analysis in this case and only got ripped by Team Ramsey--including the Judge "DISINFORMATION" Carnes--and got her work ripped off, as well; having said that, dear god, why are people STILL HOARDING INCRIMINATING EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE?

    For example: THE ENHANCED TAPE OF THE 911 CALL GERALDO PLAYED ON HIS NIGHTTIME SHOW? I've been attacked relentlessly for having seen it and speaking about that. Why? Because obviously it was illegally obtained--which works fine if you're Team Ramsey, but when it's incriminating to the Ramseys, Boulder LE and Team Ramsey will come for you like banshees out of hell. So Geraldo's producers not only pulled the segment of the show where it was played and discussed, but erased it from any transcript of the show. Scores of people have said they saw it or knew people who did, but to this day, bring it up and wait to be attacked.

    I know there was a lawyer from Boulder, one of the talking heads regularly on the shows back then, who was on and discussed it. But this was during other famous cases and a couple of years after the murder, so it was anti-climactic because what we heard was garbled, as far as the actual words; we could hear two voices, one obviously a man's, the other a child-like voice, pleading in tone. So a few minutes of discussion, with "iffy" subtitles as the tape was played several times, and on to the next topic. How common is it for 911 calls to be released? At that point, it wasn't even clear that this was an ENHANCED copy of the segment of the 911 tape with unidentified voices.

    It took me YEARS to figure that out myself, because Thomas's book hadn't come out yet when I heard this, and I wasn't online, so I never saw or had any discussion about it until some time later when I went online. On the forum Justice Watch I saw a discussion where people didn't seem to know that yes, there were actually unidentified voices on the call; I [timidly--yes, when I first came online, it was scary to post at a forum like JW where people seemed to know so much more about the case than the general public and some would slice you up good if you weren't part of the mean girls club] piped in that I'd heard the tape played. Since I was new and it was so clickish, I was summarily ignored. I wasn't aware it was a surprise anyway, so no big deal, on to other discussions.

    Woe is me, I had no idea what a hot topic that would become over the years. But I heard what I heard, others did, as well, and one even said she'd gotten ready to tape it on the "repeat" a couple of hours later, but when the show came on there was a message stating there were legal problems with the broadcast and it would be edited blahblahblah. No more enhanced 911 tape segment.

    I recount this for the 100th time for this reason: in the context of this "privately circulating tape" we're just hearing about now, like many other "privately circulating copies of evidence" in this case, I'd like to say KISS MY GRITS TO ALL OF YOU WHO PROTECT THIS CHILD MURDERER, FOR WHATEVER REASON.

    Look, MARY LACY EDITED AND RELEASED THE 911 CALL TO THE PUBLIC. WHY DOES THE MEDIA LET HER GET AWAY WITH THIS?!

    LOU SMIT, AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN, WAS GIVEN A CONTRACT TO CONTROL, EDIT, AND USE THE POWERPOINT HE WAS PAID BY THE CITIZENS OF BOULDER TO CREATE AS WORK PRODUCT FOR THE DA, THEN STOLE AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN TO WIELD AS PROPAGANDA FOR THE RAMSEYS! WHICH HE DID, WITH IMPUNITY, FOR OVER A DECADE! HOW DO THESE CROOKS GET AWAY WITH THIS?!

    IS THERE NO ONE WHO HAS THE POWER, MONEY, AND MORAL INTEGRITY TO CHALLENGE THIS 15 YEAR COVER-UP IN BOULDER?

    BECAUSE ALL THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW, HAVE SEEN EVIDENCE SEALED TO THE PUBLIC BUT BARTERED IN PRIVATE CIRCLES, YET STILL THINK THEY OWE THEIR SILENCE TO SOMEONE WHO IS ALIGNED WITH THE BOULDER CROOKS WHO OBSTRUCTED THIS MURDER INVESTIGATION, SPIT ON THE U.S. CONSTITUTION AND LAWS OF THIS COUNTRY, ABUSED THEIR POWER, AND MANIPULATED EVIDENCE AND THE MEDIA, ALL ARE PROTECTING A CHILD KILLER!


    Ah, crap, now I'm pizzed. Going to time out.
    ummm...yeah about that...I have been steaming about the non-release of Darnay's video ever since I returned from delivering The Petition to the Gov of Colorado...(hint hint)...I could really give my own azz at this point if I've said too much but if Sue Bennet can post Fleet White's SEALED deposition with not so much as a reprimand then someone with access to this video is sadly slacking.

    IMO ~
    RR
    "Don't play dumb with me, RR! You're no good at it." The Punisher

    "Although no one is anticipating a prompt resolution to this long and much-detoured case, perhaps - just perhaps - might we see one of those moments “when a chance arrow of history scores a perfect bullseye on a deserving target”? Steve Thomas 2009

    "Justice hasn't had a chance so far. Anyone who doesn't have this as their prime goal, we'll have a falling out with." Fleet White - Time Magazine

    "What happens is that evil comes in," Fleet says. "If you don't have truth, all you have are lies, then what comes in is evil. And evil just does its thing. In the Ramsey case, it just did its thing, and it's eaten up so many people."

  8. #56
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    Trigger Candy's MeltDown in 3...2...1!
    "Don't play dumb with me, RR! You're no good at it." The Punisher

    "Although no one is anticipating a prompt resolution to this long and much-detoured case, perhaps - just perhaps - might we see one of those moments “when a chance arrow of history scores a perfect bullseye on a deserving target”? Steve Thomas 2009

    "Justice hasn't had a chance so far. Anyone who doesn't have this as their prime goal, we'll have a falling out with." Fleet White - Time Magazine

    "What happens is that evil comes in," Fleet says. "If you don't have truth, all you have are lies, then what comes in is evil. And evil just does its thing. In the Ramsey case, it just did its thing, and it's eaten up so many people."

  9. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    I was kicking a dialogue over in my mind, kk, but I have to admit. You came up with a humdinger. If you could continue on with the dialogue up until John walked out to meet his children, you might have a laugh a minute novelette. But,as you say, it may not be all that far-fetched. Sometimes, we don't know whether to laugh or cry, no?

    I tend to think, if this phone call was made, that it was just a loose replay of the 911 call with heavy breathing and hysterics.

    Patsy: "My baby! My baby! They've taken my baby!" breathing, groaning..."Oh Jesus!"

    After the mayor manages to get a few details, she responds: "Have you called the police?"

    Patsy: "Yes, they're on their way...Oh Jesus, they've taken my baby!"

    Just enough, you know, to get the mayor extremely sympathetic toward a friend and a wife of a multi-millionaire with money and clout. IMO, Patsy wouldn't have to say a thing, wouldn't have to ask a thing. She knew the mayor would no doubt call police headquarters to check on what was being done and to mention that she knows this great upstanding family of wealth. And what friend and politician wouldn't relay that the lady is very distraught and should be handled gently.

    If you think about it, other than the 911 call, all the calls, to friends, were made, IMO, to distance Patsy from the police when the body was found. So, IMO, this mayor call makes all the sense in the world. Hell, if you have the money and the pull, why not use every card you're holding?

    These folks didn't miss a trick (except the pineapple). When I stop and think about their own private investigators (locking in the friends and finding out what they might know or think) already on the job that very evening, I am completely amazed at the wherewithal they were able to muster when faced with such a tragedy!

    I think the mayor call has a ring of truth in it. I have only one problem. I can't understand why ST didn't mention it in his book. Any thoughts?
    ummm...because it did not happen?
    "Don't play dumb with me, RR! You're no good at it." The Punisher

    "Although no one is anticipating a prompt resolution to this long and much-detoured case, perhaps - just perhaps - might we see one of those moments “when a chance arrow of history scores a perfect bullseye on a deserving target”? Steve Thomas 2009

    "Justice hasn't had a chance so far. Anyone who doesn't have this as their prime goal, we'll have a falling out with." Fleet White - Time Magazine

    "What happens is that evil comes in," Fleet says. "If you don't have truth, all you have are lies, then what comes in is evil. And evil just does its thing. In the Ramsey case, it just did its thing, and it's eaten up so many people."

  10. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat View Post
    ummm...because it did not happen?
    Possibly. But the whole thing (phone call to the mayor) has a ring of truth to it when you consider Patsy and what was going on that morning.

  11. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat View Post
    ummm...yeah about that...I have been steaming about the non-release of Darnay's video ever since I returned from delivering The Petition to the Gov of Colorado...(hint hint)...I could really give my own azz at this point if I've said too much but if Sue Bennet can post Fleet White's SEALED deposition with not so much as a reprimand then someone with access to this video is sadly slacking.

    IMO ~
    RR
    Well, we're still waiting.... It's not too late for the truth to be revealed. Ever.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  12. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Possibly. But the whole thing (phone call to the mayor) has a ring of truth to it when you consider Patsy and what was going on that morning.
    Not to mention, there's a lot Thomas didn't mention in his book. The RST claimed to be so disappointed when his book came out because he didn't give up evidence not already in the public. Unlike Lou Smit, I should say.

    My guess would be Thomas knows a lot more than he revealed. As do many others who won't come out publicly with the truth for various reasons, IMO.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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