Page 1 of 10 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 12 of 116
  1. #1

    Default How were the ligature cords cut and the paintbrush handle broken?

    I was doing some enlargements of the ligature cords and have some thoughts on how they were cut. I've put those enlargements in the library:


    Warning! Autopsy photos!

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...?t=9784&page=3

    My questions:

    1. Do these ends look like they were cut by scissors or by a knife, such as Burke's Swiss Army Knife or the paring knife found on the washing machine outside JB's bedroom?

    2. Would an intruder planning such a crime have nothing better to cut these cords he brought to the perfect murder?

    3. Were the cords on the wrist and on the neck cut BEFORE and then tied, or after being tied on the child? How would the person who tied those on JB know how long to cut them for exactly that length? I mean, what if he/she cut them too short? What then?

    It's confusing. I'm going to cut a cord to tie on both wrists...for some arguable reason...and I end up with 15 inches. So I don't tie the wrists together tightly bound, to restrict movement, because she's already unconscious or dead by this point; but I tie them loosely.

    Hang on. Were these cords actually from the same length, one construction, at some point? So the ends would match, right?
    Last edited by koldkase; April 30, 2012, 8:00 pm at Mon Apr 30 20:00:05 UTC 2012.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  2. #2

    Default

    Okay, on that same thread, I've put some more photos up of the paintbrush" handle" and the end found in the paint tray. It's helped me understand how the brush was broken--or where on the brush, I should say. So I'm repeating here in case someone actually wanders in to muse over this with Elle and me. [I forgot and started the discussion there, where I should have just put the photos--oops. ]

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...?t=9784&page=3

    About that paintbrush which was broken at the paint tray in the basement, just outside the cellar room where the body was later found:

    I've done some mixing and matching, re-sizing and cropping of the photos we have of the ligature paintbrush "handle," around which the cord was tied, and the bristle end of the paintbrush which was found still in the paint tray. This is a crude demonstration--sorry for that, but I wanted to see how that brush end fit on the handle as I've had problems imagining how someone broke it so readily that night. The autopsy report stated it was jagged.

    Here's an example of a general type of paintbrush with the various parts labeled, though I don't know exactly what kind was used in the murder because I can't see the brush end very well:

    http://painting.about.com/od/artsupp...rush-Parts.htm



    Looking at the following pictures, I may have found a clue: the paintbrush was broken at the ferrule--the silver part where the wood is attached to the bristles. That would be the weakest part and it does appear that this is exactly where the handle was broken from the brush end. See what you think comparing photos at the bottom of this post.

    These of the "handle" are not exactly to scale, but the original autopsy photos had a cm rule which I measured to try to enlarge the crops so that they're fairly accurate--a little larger actually, but close enough for my purpose. Using the medical examiner's ruler in the pictures, the broken handle was approx. 13 cm, as best as I could approximate the measure with my ruler.

    *The top photo is of the paintbrush "handle" with the wrapped cord turned so that the "neatly cut" end of the cord is hidden (see posts above/earlier on this thread to reference the cord end). Notice the jagged end to the right of this section of the handle--that's where it appears the broken end of the brush was snapped. Now look at the center photo of the brush end and imagine turning it over to fit into the shape of the rough break, like a three dimensional puzzle.

    *The middle photo is of that broken brush end, with the silver ferrule between the bristles and the wood. If I could roll it over, it appears that it would fit onto the jagged end of the "garrote" or ligature handle in the photo above it. Remember the larger diameter on the right end of the handle would have been attached to the ferrule, with the narrowing end on the left tapering off in diameter to a point--the missing end of the handle.

    *The last photo is of the brush handle flipped on the other side, the one showing the end of the cord cut neatly (see above). If you notice the slight diagonal of the right end, it appears to me to fit the small protrusion of jagged wood right above the ferrule.

    I'm using a bit of imagination, of course, as I don't have a 3-dimensional computer program to animate this for us. But I'm sure LE was able to do this with the real items of evidence, anyway, so it's not important here except to answer some questions I've long had: it would have been much easier to break the paintbrush where the ferrule meets the wood handle. So now I can see how it was done, even if someone had to use a heel to snap it.

    Now look at the end on the left--that's rather neatly done, isn't it? That end would have less diameter, as paintbrushes often taper on that end, so it would have been easier to break, as well, though I have to say I'm not sure a 10 year old boy could have done it. Not unless whittling was involved, and it doesn't appear to be quite so splintered as the other end at the ferrule, but so far I can't tell.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  3. #3

    Default

    Elle's response, so we can pick the discussion up here:

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Koldkase,

    Years ago I mentioned when it comes to breaking something like the handle of an artist brush, it can be broken easily by putting it between a door or the edge of a drawer, holding the door handle tightly, or the drawer, it can be snapped easier than doing it by hand. Even over a sharp edge of a tool bench, depending on where the break is needed to be made. In this instance a drawer would have been easier for a short end.

    You have been busy! When it comes to the head injury, I could see the heavy torch being used by a boy in an argument, but to me the broken skull looks like this poor little girl was thrown against the bath or toilet in a rage,and this is where I see Patsy Ramsey. I thought the same as Delmar England and Steve Thomas.

    I don't remember blood on the cord being mentioned either kk.
    Interesting, Elle. Have you broken something like this in a drawer or under a door yourself?

    I've never had any reason to break a paintbrush or anything similar that I can remember. If I have, I imagine I used a handsaw or something like that to get it started.

    Oh. You've made me think about the end of the "handle" which is more blunt. Maybe the person clumsily broke the end with the ferrule, then broke the other end like you said, using something else for leverage/force?

    Good thinking, Elle. I'm going to try blowing up the other end today, though I don't expect much as these photos from screen captures just get muddier as you enlarge them.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    8,381

    Default

    I have broken a few narrow poles holding the door handle KK. Not under the door, but just holding the handle of the door open a tad and placing one of those bamboo type of poles between the narrow opening to get a more even break, the sharp edges of the door helped there. I did have art brushes like Patsy, but no cause to break any! Yes, I have broken a few items with a drawer too, to get an even break.

    Another gadget I use, is the vice in the garage, kk. One can break stronger material using this.

    You must be a tired girl after all this hard work, kk. You are very dedicated.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Elle's response, so we can pick the discussion up here:

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



    Interesting, Elle. Have you broken something like this in a drawer or under a door yourself?

    I've never had any reason to break a paintbrush or anything similar that I can remember. If I have, I imagine I used a handsaw or something like that to get it started.

    Oh. You've made me think about the end of the "handle" which is more blunt. Maybe the person clumsily broke the end with the ferrule, then broke the other end like you said, using something else for leverage/force?

    Good thinking, Elle. I'm going to try blowing up the other end today, though I don't expect much as these photos from screen captures just get muddier as you enlarge them.
    You could also break it by holding it down with your foot and pulling up with your hand.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I was doing some enlargements of the ligature cords and have some thoughts on how they were cut. I've put those enlargements in the library:


    Warning! Autopsy photos!

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...?t=9784&page=3

    My questions:

    1. Do these ends look like they were cut by scissors or by a knife, such as Burke's Swiss Army Knife or the paring knife found on the washing machine outside JB's bedroom?
    The fraying would it indicate that it was cut by something dull, and a heavily used knife such as Burke’s Swiss Army knife would be a good candidate.

    Here are the results of my little experiment which involved cutting a cord with various household items.

    Dull Scissors:


    Sharp Scissors:


    Dinner knife, serrated edge:


    Dull knife:


    Sharp knife:


    Sharp box cutter:


    2. Would an intruder planning such a crime have nothing better to cut these cords he brought to the perfect murder?
    You would think that a good sharp hunting knife, survival knife or combat knife would be the way to go.
    3. Were the cords on the wrist and on the neck cut BEFORE and then tied, or after being tied on the child? How would the person who tied those on JB know how long to cut them for exactly that length? I mean, what if he/she cut them too short? What then?

    It's confusing. I'm going to cut a cord to tie on both wrists...for some arguable reason...and I end up with 15 inches. So I don't tie the wrists together tightly bound, to restrict movement, because she's already unconscious or dead by this point; but I tie them loosely.

    Hang on. Were these cords actually from the same length, one construction, at some point? So the ends would match, right?
    The staging involving the ligatures and the so-called garrote has always struck me as very amateurish, ignorance combined with haste? Then again, pretty much anything would have sufficed given the state of the DA’s office.
    Last edited by cynic; May 1, 2012, 9:13 pm at Tue May 1 21:13:33 UTC 2012.

  7. #7

    Default

    There is another possibility when considering the fraying. The frayed ends might indicate that the cord had been cut at an earlier date. I had some shoestrings once that were way too long on a pair of tennis shoes. This cord is similar to some shoestrings.

    At any rate, I got tired of the length and decided to cut the strings. Worked great for a few days and then the ends of the cord began to fray. This makes me wonder if this cord had already been cut and used on something else prior to being used for this grisly deed.

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Elle's response, so we can pick the discussion up here:

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



    Interesting, Elle. Have you broken something like this in a drawer or under a door yourself?

    I've never had any reason to break a paintbrush or anything similar that I can remember. If I have, I imagine I used a handsaw or something like that to get it started.

    Oh. You've made me think about the end of the "handle" which is more blunt. Maybe the person clumsily broke the end with the ferrule, then broke the other end like you said, using something else for leverage/force?

    Good thinking, Elle. I'm going to try blowing up the other end today, though I don't expect much as these photos from screen captures just get muddier as you enlarge them.
    KoldKase & Elle,

    The pic of the paint brush, to me on the left side it looks like it was cut.
    Maybe widdled? The reason I thought it looked cut with a knife is the
    smoother edge and the downward slant.

    I have always wondered why the paint brush couldn't be used without
    it being broken.

    Could it have been broken before, so PR could use it for a handle for comfort, it would be easier on the hand than holding on to a cord.
    for transporting her art.

    Years ago, I was doing some research on cords. I found one that looked
    very similar, and it was a cord used on parachute.

    Cords like the one in the pic fray easily, the more it's handled the more
    it unravels.
    Sorry to butt in.

    kk (kay)

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    I have broken a few narrow poles holding the door handle KK. Not under the door, but just holding the handle of the door open a tad and placing one of those bamboo type of poles between the narrow opening to get a more even break, the sharp edges of the door helped there. I did have art brushes like Patsy, but no cause to break any! Yes, I have broken a few items with a drawer too, to get an even break.

    Another gadget I use, is the vice in the garage, kk. One can break stronger material using this.

    You must be a tired girl after all this hard work, kk. You are very dedicated.
    Interesting, Elle. What have I been missing, that I've never found myself breaking rods in drawers and doors? I must have abused Hubs the carpenter terribly all this time...Here, hon, cut this for me, please....

    As for hard work, I was a teacher at one time, so this is a vacation.

    Quote Originally Posted by whitewitch1 View Post
    You could also break it by holding it down with your foot and pulling up with your hand.
    I wonder if that's how the jagged end where the ferrule/bristles are was broken. Seems that would be more likely to produce that kind of break...?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    The fraying would it indicate that it was cut by something dull, and a heavily used knife such as Burke’s Swiss Army knife would be a good candidate.

    Here are the results of my little experiment which involved cutting a cord with various household items.

    [snip]

    Dinner knife, serrated edge:


    Dull knife:


    [snip]
    I think the two I repeated above are the most likely to have been used. The long trails of fiber are exactly like those in the pictures.

    Also notice the chopped part of the cord ends in the crime scene photos. It appears as if they were almost sawed?

    You would think that a good sharp hunting knife, survival knife or combat knife would be the way to go.
    How many American households don't even have a pair of scissors? This is one reason I decided to work with these photos: Team Ramsey claims not finding a cord source in the Ramsey homes is proof the cords were brought in by an intruder, but I can't imagine any person planning such a crime--or carrying cords around to commit some kind of crime--who didn't have scissors or at least a sharp knife to cut them. Heck, I'm not even buying he'd use a knife at home--scissors obviously are much easier, and once you'd made that mess with one end, wouldn't you say, heck, WHERE ARE MY SCISSORS? Yet all but one end appear to have been cut by the "dull knife" or "serrated" knife.

    Here's the very neatly cut and unraveled end:





    Okay, NOW THE TWO KNIVES FOUND IN ODD PLACES MAKE SENSE: when the first one didn't work well--the "kitchen" knife found on the washing machine outside JB's room--the killer or stager went for another. OH MY GOSH. This could explain so much.

    The staging involving the ligatures and the so-called garrote has always struck me as very amateurish, ignorance combined with haste? Then again, pretty much anything would have sufficed given the state of the DA’s office.
    Given the state of the DA's office, anything--or nothing--would have sufficed.
    Last edited by koldkase; May 2, 2012, 10:12 am at Wed May 2 10:12:00 UTC 2012.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #11
    RiverRat's Avatar
    RiverRat is offline FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Left is Patsy Ramsey)
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    NoneYa Beessness
    Posts
    7,824

    Cool

    Reminder ~ the swiss army knife was taken away from Burke and hidden so that he could not find it and continue making the mess that caused him to be grounded from having the knife.

    Patsy knew exactly where it was though.

    RR
    "Don't play dumb with me, RR! You're no good at it." The Punisher

    "Although no one is anticipating a prompt resolution to this long and much-detoured case, perhaps - just perhaps - might we see one of those moments “when a chance arrow of history scores a perfect bullseye on a deserving target”? Steve Thomas 2009

    "Justice hasn't had a chance so far. Anyone who doesn't have this as their prime goal, we'll have a falling out with." Fleet White - Time Magazine

    "What happens is that evil comes in," Fleet says. "If you don't have truth, all you have are lies, then what comes in is evil. And evil just does its thing. In the Ramsey case, it just did its thing, and it's eaten up so many people."

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kk View Post
    KoldKase & Elle,

    The pic of the paint brush, to me on the left side it looks like it was cut.
    Maybe widdled? The reason I thought it looked cut with a knife is the
    smoother edge and the downward slant.

    I have always wondered why the paint brush couldn't be used without
    it being broken.

    Could it have been broken before, so PR could use it for a handle for comfort, it would be easier on the hand than holding on to a cord.
    for transporting her art.

    Years ago, I was doing some research on cords. I found one that looked
    very similar, and it was a cord used on parachute.

    Cords like the one in the pic fray easily, the more it's handled the more
    it unravels.
    Sorry to butt in.

    kk (kay)
    No apologies--the point of group discussion is joining in with your thoughts. That's how we move along. WS members in a discussion sent me on this exploration and now I have finally got some answers--or at least plausible ideas--to some questions I've long pondered.

    The cord was identified as the Stansport brand, a nylon cord, if memory serves, used in sports. I've also wondered if LE might have found similar cord at the airport where JR's planes were stored.

    I, too, have always wondered why use the paintbrush at all? Looking at the neater "broken" end, it clearly wasn't broken like the other jagged end.

    Makes me wonder if the paintbrush was involved in the crime at some point before it was tied onto the ligature, maybe because the fear was it would point to someone in the family unless it was disguised as part of the "murder weapon"?

    I'm now even wondering if the tip was already gone, discarded in the trash long before the crime.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



Similar Threads

  1. Broken paintbrush
    By Karen in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 70
    Last Post: May 24, 2010, 3:18 pm, Mon May 24 15:18:15 UTC 2010
  2. Wrist Ligature....
    By AMES in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: June 21, 2007, 11:03 am, Thu Jun 21 11:03:59 UTC 2007
  3. John and the broken basement window
    By icedtea4me in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: May 3, 2006, 11:48 am, Wed May 3 11:48:05 UTC 2006
  4. REVISITING BROKEN WINDOW & spider web
    By Greenleaf in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: January 6, 2006, 2:01 pm, Fri Jan 6 14:01:19 UTC 2006

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •