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  1. #97
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    According to Delmar England's analysis, the garrote was a fake to cover up the original head injury. I personally believe JonBenét was thrown against the bath or toilet which caused the unbelievable head injury, and with this head wound not being visible, they tried to create a murder scene with the garrote. Delmar took one look at this and knew it was a fake.

    I had no luck in tracing his analysis, KK I hate this stupid computer! One minute I can be typing and the next everything jumps off my screen. I have to copy and paste a lot. :( If you have Delmar's url would you be a nice girl and post it for me?
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  2. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    According to Delmar England's analysis, the garrote was a fake to cover up the original head injury. I personally believe JonBenét was thrown against the bath or toilet which caused the unbelievable head injury, and with this head wound not being visible, they tried to create a murder scene with the garrote. Delmar took one look at this and knew it was a fake.

    I had no luck in tracing his analysis, KK I hate this stupid computer! One minute I can be typing and the next everything jumps off my screen. I have to copy and paste a lot. :( If you have Delmar's url would you be a nice girl and post it for me?
    http://www.acandyrose.com/delmarengland.htm

    Additional related threads:
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=5005

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=9899

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...p?t=8934&pp=12

    Pages 29 - 31 of "Autopsy Questions"
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...&pp=12&page=29

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...&pp=12&page=30

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...&pp=12&page=31

  3. #99
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    Thank you cynic. It was late last night and I do get frustrated with this
    Acer pc which is now 1 year old. I had to part with my older Dell - six years old and that was Windows XP. I saw headlines on the net ... "If you liked Windows XP you'll hate Windows 7." True! I think someone's trying to tell me something. Find something else to pass the time. My husband's computer also crashed so he quite likes this one, but I am between a rock and a hard place, because Windows 7 is here to stay. Has a lot of good programs but we just haven't hit it off.:( I have had a good run.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  4. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    As far as the cord fibers found in JB's bed....I do not recall seeing that ANYWHERE else except "DOI", and that was written by the Rs themselves. So I can't really accept anything in there as fact. I feel the garrote was made in the basement...that is where the brush was broken. The brush shards are on the floor. I never saw where the brush handle was tested against the Swiss Army knife or if the knife blade was tested for tiny fibers from the cord.
    When asked about that knife (as far as whether it was her son's) Patsy said "Is his name on it?" Apparently BR's knife DID have his name on it. The questioning LE never answered her. Obviously they KNOW. They supposedly have the knife still in evidence....
    I had read there were fibers in her bed from the hemp rope that was found in JAR's room. That exact type of rope was shown in a modeling photo showing a pigtailed JB in jeans and checked shirt. The rope is placed at her feet. It is a "Country" look photo.

    When Patsy put her house on the Colorado Christmas house tour a few years before, she stated (in a magazine interview) that she put decorated trees in every room, including bedrooms. Each tree had a different "theme", and JAR's had a "cowboy" theme, with miniature cowboy boot ornaments, etc. The hemp rope was a perfect garland.
    DeeDee,

    I remember this photo of JonBenét in her cowboy outfit beside the rope.
    This little girl must have been exhausted living a very hectic life with Patsy Ramsey. I also remember the Christmas tour.

    I don't remember reading about tests with the knife and cord.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  5. #101
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    Koldkase,

    And the one question I don't know if we'll ever answer: why Patsy's paintbrush at all? She's all over the murder weapon, the crime scene, so why use something to further incriminate herself when she could have used a hundred other things in the home? Is there something about this paintbrush which in the killer's mind demanded it be part of the staging and/or murder? Or was it just a random choice, chosen simply to confuse LE?
    I think a random choice. KK. Once the cover-up started, they couldn't stop and the more confusion they could add to scene, all the better for them!

    It worked, didn't it, KK? They were never arrested!

    Koldkase,


    Knowing WHO broke that paintbrush is important. Knowing who was CAPABLE of breaking it is important. Knowing WHERE and HOW it was broken is important. The evidence was right there in the basement; it's still on the remaining paintbrush pieces, the "handle" of the murder weapon.
    I wonder if there was a metal door leading to the garage in the Ramsey basement. No dents would show if this was how the brush was broken, KK.. I'm sure the house was renovated before the Ramseys moved in. Our house is now 37 years old, and I was quite amazed to see the front door was a steel door with another door in front with a screen. So Patsy may have changed the entrance door to the garage or had a steel door at the front (?). I'm sure we have all seen most of the TV programs showing the inside of the Ramsey home, but you wouldn't know at a glance if a door was wooden or steel, not unless the host of one of the TV shows mentions it.
    Last edited by Elle_1; May 16, 2012, 8:55 am at Wed May 16 8:55:08 UTC 2012.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  6. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    Much to consider...a few quick observations:
    Do you believe the brush was used to pull the ligature? It seems to me that it was tied into JBR's hair and therefore simply a prop.
    Also, I wonder if the BPD actually tested the functionality of the "knot," (and I use the term loosely,) on the brush handle to see whether it could actually survive being pulled?

    Re the splinters:

    In the tote was a broken brush splotched by paint. Splinters were on the floor beside the tote. It was a major find because the broken brush matched the fractured end of the multicolored stick used in the garrote. The detective had found the source of part of the murder weapon and where it had been broken.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 41

    Then we had the experts assess why a tiny splinter had been found in JonBenét’s vagina.
    The cellulose splinter was believed to have come from the same paintbrush that had been used to make the garrote. Although the source of the splinter was never definitively proved, I considered it highly unlikely that it originated anywhere else. And that brush belonged to Patsy Ramsey.

    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 254

    Then we presented information on the paintbrush, the handle for the garrote, the paint tray, and the matching paint on the handle and the broken brush. The splinter in the vagina had caused a disagreement among the examiners. Some examiners said it had been in the vagina as long as a week, but the detectives sided with Dr. Spitz’s conclusion that it was inserted about the time of death as a part of the staging.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 342
    Thank you, cynic! See, your last quote I totally didn't remember. As we've recently seen the crumbling clay feet of Dr. Spitz (disastrously, if successfully, testifying like a camp caricature of himself in the Anthony trial), I'm going to put a thought out there that I have been alluding to:

    If the paintbrush had been used on the child PRIOR to the night she was murdered, maybe THAT'S why it was incorporated into the murder weapon. The killer knew it was already linked to prior sexual abuse and feared that would be discovered at autopsy, so used it in a way to blame the "intruder."

    I've often wondered if the "tip" of the brush was spirited away because it had blood/tissue/DNA on it from the sexual abuse.

    It's hard to imagine what actually happened to this poor child, I admit, as this all seems so contrived on so many levels. But we know from chronic vaginal injuries the child was being sexually abused prior to that night, and probably for some time, if the injuries to the hymen are any indication.

    I use the term sexually abused because I personally think whatever the motivation was--i.e. some sick obsession with cleanliness (douching or some form of violent cleansing) or actual sexual molestation, the assault on the child's reproductive system was by definition "abuse" and that it was enacted on the sexual organs makes it sexual abuse, IMO.

    So with the quote in mind that other medical opinions presented were that the birefringent material had been in the vagina for some amount of time prior to the night of the murder, that would explain A LOT.

    It would explain the repeated calls to the pediatrician on Dec. 17th after hours. It would explain an angry attack on JonBenet on Dec. 25th/26th. It would explain why someone felt the need to use a paintbrush as part of a strangulation device when it wasn't needed.

    I may be making too much out of this. Maybe it's like you say, Elle, just a random choice. But I have been thinking about that paint tray and where it was found by LE--outside the cellar door. I've been looking at crime scene photos of it, and it seems so out of place. I know there were paintings near it, if I've read the '98 LE interview with Patsy right--which is hard to say because we don't have all the photos with numbers as they go through them.

    I also know the maid is said by Patsy--REPEATEDLY--to have put the paint tray in the basement. Which, now that I think of it, is a huge red flag: did Patsy move that tray herself the night of the murder? Her clothing fibers from what she wore to the White's party were found in it. The same fibers that were found by LE tied into the knots of the ligature.

    Poor cynic, I'm abusing you badly: do you remember what Thomas wrote about LHPugh putting the paint tray in the basement? If you don't have time, I'll hunt for it. You're a doll, by the way, for going to so much trouble here.

    I'm going to ponder this--though it's like being stabbed in the gut repeatedly to think of the suffering of JonBenet.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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    3 Dimensional

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  7. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    As far as the cord fibers found in JB's bed....I do not recall seeing that ANYWHERE else except "DOI", and that was written by the Rs themselves. So I can't really accept anything in there as fact. I feel the garrote was made in the basement...that is where the brush was broken. The brush shards are on the floor. I never saw where the brush handle was tested against the Swiss Army knife or if the knife blade was tested for tiny fibers from the cord.
    When asked about that knife (as far as whether it was her son's) Patsy said "Is his name on it?" Apparently BR's knife DID have his name on it. The questioning LE never answered her. Obviously they KNOW. They supposedly have the knife still in evidence....
    I had read there were fibers in her bed from the hemp rope that was found in JAR's room. That exact type of rope was shown in a modeling photo showing a pigtailed JB in jeans and checked shirt. The rope is placed at her feet. It is a "Country" look photo.

    When Patsy put her house on the Colorado Christmas house tour a few years before, she stated (in a magazine interview) that she put decorated trees in every room, including bedrooms. Each tree had a different "theme", and JAR's had a "cowboy" theme, with miniature cowboy boot ornaments, etc. The hemp rope was a perfect garland.
    Lou Smit also shared that little bit of Ramsey spin about the "cord fibers in the bed" with dear old Judge "Opinion" Carnes. Unless I'm mis-remembering, Carnes cited that in her "opinion"--wow, it just occurred to me that she and Lacy were actually soul mates, weren't they, abusing their exaggerated legal powers to fudge a legal case without actually having to take it to trial.

    Dayum...that just made me want to scream....

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #104
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    Thank you again Cynic for this wonderful list. You are well organized. BJ's site ACandyRose is incredible. The amount of work BJ has done is amazing. I used her site all the time when researching way back.

    I'm trying to find a good techie to pay me a visit and check this pc out, because the links won't open for me.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  9. #105
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    KK, I had never before thought about the possibility of that particular paintbrush having been used in a prior assault. That would certainly explain why it was used in the staging. It really wasn't a necessary part of the garrote- it could have strangled her without use of a "handle".
    As to whether it had been in her vagina up to a week before her death- I would imagine there might be some "healing" or tissue growth around wood splinters if they were there that long- the same way your skin will close over a splinter in your finger or hand. This happens over days, and not hours, and it doesn't happen after death. I would think the two medical examiners present (Mayer and a female medical examiner) would have been able to tell if this occurred.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  10. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Poor cynic, I'm abusing you badly:

    do you remember what Thomas wrote about LHPugh putting the paint tray in the basement?
    I neglected to mention this in my previous post:

    Finally, the detectives turned to the microscopic splinter of cellulose found in JonBenét’s vagina, which looked like wood. The broken paintbrush that had been tied to the stick was splintered into shards.
    Logic suggested that a splinter of wood might have stuck to the perpetrator’s finger before he or she penetrated JonBenét vaginally.
    It could also have broken off the end of the paintbrush if the stick, rather than a finger, was used to penetrate her.

    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, 559


    Here is the info with respect to the paint tray:

    Before leaving questions about the basement, we locked her into saying that the housekeeper had moved the painting and art supplies down there before the holidays. That made me think how odd it would be for a total stranger, presumably working in the dark, to know where to find the paintbrush that became part of the garrote.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 189

    Patsy started to take a painting class, and JonBenét drew a lot with crayons and markers. People and flowers. They had a big easel, but most of the time JonBenét painted on a card table in the butler’s kitchen. Patsy had her paints and brushes in a white paint tote. Sometimes she asked me to take her paints down to the basement when she was having some kind of party. That’s what she’d say about everything, any kind of clutter: “Just take it down to the basement. I don’t want to see it.” On the day of the Ramseys’ Christmas party, I took the paint tote downstairs.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 237

    PR: I took painting class this fall, and she would paint with me. Again, we kind of turned our lower kitchen into a little are kind of studio, and she would paint.
    TT: OK. For the tape, by the lower kitchen, is that where the sink is right outside by the bathroom there?
    PR: That black and white tile from our den.
    TT: Back towards the back?
    PR: Low, way low. Behind the kitchen and the den.
    TT: The bar (inaudible).
    PR: There’s a kitchen there.
    TT: So, you took painting classes in the fall.
    PR: Right.
    TT: What kind of classes?
    PR: Down at CUTT: Water color or oil, or…
    PR: I think you could do either one, acrylic or oils.
    TT: OK. Which did you do?
    PR: I started out with oil, but then I changed to acrylic because it got on my car when I (inaudible). It smelled real bad, so I switched.
    TT: Do you normally keep the painting supplies in that (inaudible) area where the checkered board stuff is?
    PR: Yeah, we had it there for a long time, and then around the holidays, I moved all that to the basement.
    TT: OK.
    PR: Ah, cause we put coat racks and things in there for parties.
    TT: OK. What part of the basement do you recall moving the painting supplies to?
    PR: I don’t remember. I think Linda took all that own there. I think it was kind of, I don’t remember. (Inaudible) was storing everything, I don’t remember where she put it.
    TT: Is that a (inaudible), how much stuff are you talking about?
    PR: Well, I had a bunch of big canvasses; had a Santa by the lawn, and a big easel, a big tall easel; and then like a white caddy kind of thing, like a plastic thing that I had a bunch of paint in. It would have been a lot of stuff to flip over.
    TT: So some place in the basement is where (inaudible) all that?
    PR: Yeah.
    1997 Interview

    TRIP DEMUTH: I want to ask a question before we go off the butler area, as long as you are looking at 69 there.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    TRIP DEMUTH: You used to have your painting materials in the butler kitchen; right?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Where were they?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right here. Right in this area.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Just in the central area or was it off to the side?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this wasn't a real big space. So it had the easel kind of set up right there and the sink was there to wash, and the (inaudible) area.
    TRIP DEMUTH: You had a paint tree also, a tray, or I don't know what you call --
    PATSY RAMSEY: It was like a little utility carrier with paint in it and stuff.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Do you remember when you moved those items?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Linda did. I asked her to take them to the bedroom.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. And do you remember when she did that?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she did it prior to the party on the 23rd because we wanted to hang coats here. I don't know exactly the day she did it, but –
    TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know where she moved them to?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Down here in the basement, I think, you know, kind of like sort of in this area.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
    TOM HANEY: Well, there is a -- I think maybe a quick little look at the tray with some brushes in it in a minute. In that tray of brushes what would you have had in there?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Paint and brushes and probably -- I don't know. I don't know exactly what was in there. Supplies, you know, paint supplies.
    TOM HANEY: What kind of painting were you doing? What kind of paint would you have had in there?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, oil or acrylic. I signed up for a class where you could use both, and I started out using oil and it got over my car, so I switched to acrylic, but there was a mishmash in there.
    TOM HANEY: Okay. Out of the brushes you would have had in there, would you have had any that were broken or damaged or would you –
    PATSY RAMSEY: No, they were all pretty new.
    TOM HANEY: Okay. So any broken or damaged ones?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Throw it away.
    TOM HANEY: So –
    TRIP DEMUTH: Take a minute, Patsy, and think about the paint tree. Were there any broken paint brushes that you recall?
    PATSY RAMSEY: No, not that I recall. They were all pretty new when -- they had a list of things to buy for the class.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
    TOM HANEY: Did you follow their advice? Sometimes, you know, you get the list from school and you think do you need all of this.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, pretty close, yeah.
    TOM HANEY: What is available. Do you recall where you would have made the purchase before this?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Art Hardware in Boulder.

    [SNIP]

    TOM HANEY: Photograph, I think is 178, that is that tray of paint brushes that we talked about earlier.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    TOM HANEY: Is that where it is located?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, like I said, Linda took all of the paint stuff out of the butler kitchen there when she took it to the basement. And to tell you the truth, I never really paid too much attention where she put it.
    TOM HANEY: Okay. I can't tell.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Here is the wine cellar.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, okay. It could have been. I don't know.
    TOM HANEY: Do you recognize what that is behind it there?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. That is a painting I did.
    TOM HANEY: Okay. Pretty much the painting supplies, the materials were together.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right, all together.
    1998 Interview


    Q. And you have told investigators before that, as the holiday season began, that the painting equipment which is normally kept in the butler's pantry was transferred to the basement by Ms. Hoffman Pugh. Do you remember that?
    MR. WOOD: Why don't you give her the statement so she can look at that. You now are directly asking her to reaffirm something she's already apparently said.
    MR. LEVIN: I didn't think it was a matter of discussion. Let me ask a second question.
    MR. WOOD: I don't know whether it is or not, Bruce, but I mean, it is not, apparently by the nature of your question, something new. You already have gotten the information from a question, so --
    Q. (By Mr. Levin) Let me just, let me just ask another question. We will just drop that one.
    At the time of JonBenet's death, your painting supplies were found in the basement. Did you ever paint in the basement?
    A. No.
    Q. When you were helping JonBenet get ready for bed, were you still wearing the red coat -- excuse me, the red, black, and gray coat?
    MR. WOOD: Well, from what I saw, it looked like the red and black jacket.
    THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
    MR. WOOD: The one we have been discussing that Mr. Kane had a picture of.
    THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
    MR. WOOD: Did you get your answer?
    MR. LEVIN: Yes, I did.
    Q. (By Mr. Levin) I believe you said you don't remember.
    Was that the outer coat that you were wearing Christmas, or did you have a heavier coat that you wore on top of that?
    MR. WOOD: For outdoors?
    MR. LEVIN: For outdoors.
    THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I think, I think that was the only one I wore. Because we were in the car and out, but I don't remember exactly.
    MR. MORRISSEY: Mrs. Ramsey, I am sorry to interrupt you. Before you get going too far, when was the last time you remember using the paint set?
    THE WITNESS: Oh, god. Oh, you know, probably that fall sometime, I --
    MR. WOOD: Do you remember that, Patsy? Be sure of your answer.
    THE WITNESS: No, I don't remember the last time I used it.
    Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Right. I am not asking for a date.
    A. Yeah.
    Q. A season.
    A. Yeah.
    Q. And you indicate the fall? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
    A. Well, the last time I used it was in conjunction with this art class that I signed up to, and I can't remember when that was exactly from CU. And all of my stuff was there in the butler's pantry. But then the holidays came, we needed that space, and we moved all of the junk to the basement.
    Q. Once it was moved to the basement, you never hauled it up and painted or anything? You never used it again?
    A. No.

    [SNIP]

    Q. (By Mr. Levin) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, you -- are you aware, I should say, that your paint kit was found very close to the wine cellar door?
    A. I have heard that.
    Q. Did you recall at any time that you were shown photographs in that regard?
    A. No.
    Q. We have found, and I want you to help us, maybe you can offer an explanation for this. We have found fibers in the paint tray that appear to come off of the coat in the photograph we showed you.
    A. In the paint tray?
    Q. Yes.
    A. What's a paint --
    MR. WOOD: Hold on. Let him ask you his question and then answer his question. What is your question?
    MR. LEVIN: I did.
    MR. WOOD: You got your answer?
    MR. LEVIN: Well, I got, she said what's a paint tray.
    MR. WOOD: No, she didn't. She was following your question, in the paint tray because you said we have found, and I want you to help us, maybe you can offer an explanation for this. We have found fibers in the paint tray that appear to come off of the coat in the photograph we showed you.
    What is the question?
    Q. (By Mr. Levin) Can you explain for us how the fibers from the coat got in the paint tray?
    MR. WOOD: Are you stipulating as a fact that the fibers that you say are in the paint tray, in fact, came from that coat that we earlier discussed, or is it simply a matter that you say they may have? Because I am not going to let her answer argumentative, hypothetical opinions. I will let her answer if you are going to state it as a matter of fact that that fiber came from that jacket.
    MR. LEVIN: I can state to you, Mr. Wood, that, given the current state of the scientific examination of fibers, that, based on the state of the art technology, that I believe, based on testing, that fibers from your client's coat are in the paint tray.
    MR. WOOD: Are you stating as a fact that they are from the coat or is it consistent with? What is the test result terminology? Is it conclusive? I mean, I think she is entitled to know that when you ask her to explain something.
    MR. KANE: It is identical in all scientific respects.
    MR. WOOD: What does that mean? Are you telling me it is conclusive?
    MR. KANE: It is identical.
    MR. WOOD: Are you saying it is a conclusive match?
    MR. KANE: You can draw your own conclusions.
    MR. WOOD: I am not going to draw my own conclusions.
    MR. KANE: I am saying it is identical.
    2000 Interview

  11. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    If the paintbrush had been used on the child PRIOR to the night she was murdered, maybe THAT'S why it was incorporated into the murder weapon. The killer knew it was already linked to prior sexual abuse and feared that would be discovered at autopsy, so used it in a way to blame the "intruder."

    I've often wondered if the "tip" of the brush was spirited away because it had blood/tissue/DNA on it from the sexual abuse.
    If true it would point stongly to the Ramseys because an intruder-pedophile is not going to be using a paintbrush he finds in a home to get hia "work" done. I'm pretty sure it would be a far more intimate experience that he would be after.

  12. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    As to whether it had been in her vagina up to a week before her death- I would imagine there might be some "healing" or tissue growth around wood splinters if they were there that long- the same way your skin will close over a splinter in your finger or hand. This happens over days, and not hours, and it doesn't happen after death. I would think the two medical examiners present (Mayer and a female medical examiner) would have been able to tell if this occurred.
    It makes perfect sense that there would be some "healing" over that length of time.



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