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  1. #97
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    No no no--that is NOT what I'm asking.

    I am simply pointing out that even though a doctor may have treated vaginitis a few times, that doesn't mean he'd done an examination thorough enough to notice a damaged hymen. In other words, just because the pediatrician didn't see signs of molestation, doesn't mean they weren't there.

  2. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    No no no--that is NOT what I'm asking.

    I am simply pointing out that even though a doctor may have treated vaginitis a few times, that doesn't mean he'd done an examination thorough enough to notice a damaged hymen. In other words, just because the pediatrician didn't see signs of molestation, doesn't mean they weren't there.
    That is totally correct. He would have had to do a more extensive examination to determine that.
    It's probably too late to get justice for JonBenét. Maybe it always was. But knowing where things went wrong is the first step to not going there again. **-- Alan Prendergast-Dec 21, 2006--**

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  3. #99
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    Thanks, Moab!

  4. #100

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    JonBenet had urinary tract infections because Kane questioned Ramsey about them in '98.

    MIKE KANE: And I think you have
    already answered this. You didn't have any
    discussions with your wife about the urinary
    tract infections that your daughter had.

    JOHN RAMSEY: No.

  5. #101
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    I'm wondering if Dr. Beuf has ever been asked to hand over his personal file of JonBenét Ramsey to the Medical Authorities for them to check over the 30 visits made by Patsy Ramsey(?). He appears to have kept his mouth shut tight! Do they Care?
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  6. #102
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    Is a urinary tract infection synonymous with vaginitis?

  7. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    Is a urinary tract infection synonymous with vaginitis?
    No, but it can explain JonBenet's bedwetting. And if she had chronic UTI, that would need some explaining. How many bubble bath-induced urinary tract infections would she need to have before you stop doing that?

    The information about these infections didn't come from Patsy. (I seem to recall that the police got their hands on the pediatrician's files somehow. I could be wrong about that.) But I know that Patsy didn't disgorge this information. Why would she conceal them if they had an innocent origin?

    (BTW, the next thing Kane asks Ramsey about after JonBenet's urinary tract infections is Patsy's panic attacks and use of Xanax.)

  8. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moab View Post
    That is totally correct. He would have had to do a more extensive examination to determine that.
    I believe Dr. Beuf was asked if he had done an exam with a vaginal speculum--used during internal vaginal examinations, it opens the vaginal cavity. Yes, it's as uncomfortable as it sounds; women know what I'm referencing, a dreaded part of any GYN exam for women.

    Dr. Beuf said no, he'd just done a cursory exam of the outer genital area, if memory serves. I can't remember the source for this exactly, just that it was not contested? Maybe it was in one of his interviews about the case?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  9. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    No no no--that is NOT what I'm asking.

    I am simply pointing out that even though a doctor may have treated vaginitis a few times, that doesn't mean he'd done an examination thorough enough to notice a damaged hymen. In other words, just because the pediatrician didn't see signs of molestation, doesn't mean they weren't there.
    In Kolar's book, he has a couple of chapters on the autopsy. Finally we find out in more detail that Dr. Meyer found the chronic vaginal injuries troubling evidence of prior sexual abuse. He immediately called a meeting of other professionals that afternoon. Let me quote from the book:

    From "Chapter Five, Cause and Manner of Death":

    Dr. Meyer conducted an external examination of JonBenét’s
    genitalia. [snip]

    He observed that there was fresh trauma located at the 7:00
    o’clock position at the hymeneal opening. The area was inflamed

    Page 57

    and had been bleeding, and it appeared to Dr. Meyer that a foreign
    object had been inserted into JonBenét’s genitalia at or near the
    time of her death.

    The site of the damaged tissue was excised and prepared for
    a pathology slide. Later examination would reveal the presence of
    ‘cellulose material’ in the membrane of the hymeneal opening that
    was consistent with the wood of the paintbrush used as a handle
    in the cord of the garrote.

    He noted that he didn’t consider this injury the result of
    a particularly vicious assault with a foreign object. A very small
    splinter of material was discovered during microscopic examination,
    and more trauma to the site would have been expected if the
    perpetrator had been intent on physically torturing the child.
    Dr. Meyer also observed signs of chronic inflammation around
    the vaginal orifice and believed that these injuries had been
    inflicted in the days or weeks before the acute injury that was
    responsible for causing the bleeding at the time of her death.
    This irritation appeared consistent with prior sexual contact.

    [snip]

    Dr. Meyer called together the Boulder County Child Fatality
    Advisory Review Team that afternoon, a protocol established by
    the coroner’s office that called for the review of all child fatalities
    that took place in the county. Members who served on the team
    were comprised of people from the Boulder Police Department,
    Boulder County Coroner’s Office, the Boulder County Sheriff’s
    Department, the Boulder District Attorney’s Office, and the
    Boulder County Department of Social Services.

    The team was provided with a briefing on what had taken
    place at the Ramsey home following the report of the kidnapping,
    and Dr. Meyer gave an overview of the autopsy findings. A number
    of things were discussed during the meeting, and the group
    determined that there were a number of questions that needed to
    be researched.

    They were interested in the family history and wanted to know
    if there had been any signs of previous sexual abuse with members
    of the family. There was an interest in determining if there had
    been any recent behavioral changes with the children at their
    schools. It was suggested that the teachers and classmates of
    JonBenét and Burke be interviewed.

    [snip]

    Page 60

    [snip].

    Following the meeting, Dr. Meyer returned to the morgue
    with Dr. Andy Sirontak, Chief of Denver Children’s Hospital
    Child Protection Team, so that a second opinion could be
    rendered on the injuries observed to the vaginal area of JonBenét.
    He would observe the same injuries that Dr. Meyer had noted
    during the autopsy protocol and concurred that a foreign object
    had been inserted into the opening of JonBenét’s vaginal orifice
    and was responsible for the acute injury witnessed at the 7:00
    o’clock position.

    Further inspection revealed that the hymen was shriveled and
    retracted, a sign that JonBenét had been subjected to some type of
    sexual contact prior to the date of her death.

    Dr. Sirontak could not provide an opinion as to how old
    those injuries were or how many times JonBenét may have been
    assaulted and would defer to the expert opinions of other medical
    examiners.
    Continuing in "Chapter Six, Interpreting the Injuries":

    Dr. Meyer was concerned about JonBenét’s
    vaginal injuries, and he, along with Boulder
    investigators, sought the opinions of a variety of other physicians
    in the days following her autopsy. Dr. Sirontak, a pediatrician
    with Denver Children’s Hospital, had recognized signs of prior
    sexual trauma but neither he nor Dr. Meyer were able to say with
    any degree of certainty what period of time may have been
    involved in the abuse.

    Experts in their field, physicians and forensic pathologists
    were consulted from St. Louis, Missouri; Dade County, Florida;
    Wayne County, Michigan, and Philadelphia, Pennsylvania to name
    just a few. They examined the series of photographs that depicted
    the injuries and came to the opinion that JonBenet had been
    subjected to sexual intrusion prior to the insertion of the foreign
    object that had created the injury at the time of her death.

    Page 63

    It was their opinion that the type of injury present with the
    hymen suggested that several different contacts had been made in
    the past and that digital penetration was consistent with this type
    of injury. The physicians were unable to date the previous injury
    or specifically quantify the number of times JonBenét had been
    assaulted, but were confident in their opinions that she had
    been subjected to sexual contact prior to the day of her murder.

    This particular information suggested that someone close to
    JonBenét had been responsible for abusing her in the weeks or
    months preceding her murder. As is often the case involving this
    type of childhood abuse, investigators had to consider the possibility
    that a family member, relative, or someone close to the inner
    circle of the family was responsible for the prior acts and possibly
    the murder of JonBenét. Someone had to have had access to
    JonBenét on repeated occasions to have perpetrated these injuries.
    PS: Can we continue this discussion on the thread specifically about the information in the book? Just to keep it easily referenced?

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...t=10129&page=2
    Last edited by koldkase; July 21, 2012, 1:21 pm at Sat Jul 21 13:21:01 UTC 2012.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  10. #106
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    Yeah let's go over to the other thread. I'll post a pic of the "obscured from neighbor's view" area around the grate.

  11. #107
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    And this is my intellectual review of the intruder theory
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  12. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    And this is my intellectual review of the intruder theory


    Always the soul of brevity...and tactful, too!

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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    3 Dimensional

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