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  1. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by kk View Post
    Burke's sleeping? I wonder why they were so certain he was sleeping.
    I know I would check to make sure he was breathing, After all, his sister was
    missing.
    I think he did what he was told to do,, stay in bed and pretend you are sleeping.
    Even the Fernies asked how Burke could be sleeping with all commotion.
    They said he was an early riser like Doug.
    kk (kay)

    So you have the book and are reading it? Because I was just thinking about the section on Barbara Fernie's questions about Burke: she knew he was an early riser, as you stated, and she wondered if John was upstairs in his bathroom how he heard Patsy scream, but Burke did not?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  2. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    Wasn't Burke questioned after he was whisked off to the Whites' house? The police got his grandmother's permission or something. I've always wondered what he said.

    (Or do I have this completely wrong?)
    I don't remember anything about getting "his" grandmother's permission--she was in Georgia, right? But I could have just missed that or forgotten it--one thing I like about this book is Kolar goes over all the stuff we've known for years, but has gotten lost in my crowded memory when it comes to this case. (I'm not half way through, though, so still have lots to go.)

    At any rate, Burke was questioned at the White's by a police officer--I think that's what I remember.

    The Ramseys were incensed to learn that! He didn't have their permission! Team Ramsey has jumped on this like LE was doing something sinister. In fact, it was not illegal, as a kidnapped child is exigent circumstances and questioning Burke as a WITNESS without parental presence or permission, ow without legal representation, was not illegal.

    This is a perfect example of how the Ramseys were lawyer crazy and always have given the impression of not cooperating with LE. Their child was "missing" and certainly in danger if the ransom note was in fact written by someone who had kidnapped her (not to mention by the time they were blaming LE for everything they could think of, they had already buried their brutalized and murdered child). But they're all indignant that SOMEONE FINALLY ASKED HER BROTHER QUESTIONS. He was down the hall from her room, one of three remaining WITNESSES in the house, and up to that point, NO ONE HAD ASKED BURKE ANYTHING.

    Kolar reports that White said he and Burke said little to each other on the trip to White's house, including Burke asked no questions about his sister.

    Anywho...I'm pretty sure that the Ramseys deliberately did not want Burke questioned--by anyone. I think he was awake and talking to John that morning at the end of Patsy's 911 call, and I am beginning to think a lot worse.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  3. #15
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    Koldkase:

    Anywho...I'm pretty sure that the Ramseys deliberately did not want Burke questioned--by anyone. I think he was awake and talking to John that morning at the end of Patsy's 911 call, and I am beginning to think a lot worse.
    I'm beginning to think a lot worse myself Kk! It was deva vous going over all of the above. You have all done a great job on this thread. I remember reading about Burke's voice being heard. Patsy blew it! The sad thing is it didn't matter what cropped up which pointed in the Ramsey direction, it was very quickly thwarted, The Ramsey's got away with it, until now! I am wondering just how John Ramsey will deal with this latest news! (?).
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  4. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    At any rate, Burke was questioned at the White's by a police officer--I think that's what I remember.

    The Ramseys were incensed to learn that! He didn't have their permission! Team Ramsey has jumped on this like LE was doing something sinister. In fact, it was not illegal, as a kidnapped child is exigent circumstances and questioning Burke as a WITNESS without parental presence or permission, without legal representation, was not illegal.
    Does Kolar say what Burke said when questioned at that time?

  5. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    Does Kolar say what Burke said when questioned at that time?
    Maybe. I haven't finished the book so I haven't read that yet, I don't think. I know Kolar goes more in depth into Burke's behaviors, etc., later, so maybe it's there?

    Does anyone who has finished the book or is reading and further along know the answer to this? Zoomama? Cynic? KKay?

    (Sorry, fr brown; this week has been insane for me, being pulled in many directions at once.)

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  6. #18
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    Here is the "deeply secluded" area that the alleged foreign faction terrorist squad supposedly used so they wouldn't be spotted. The photo was taken in 1999.
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    Last edited by Cherokee; July 21, 2012, 7:21 pm at Sat Jul 21 19:21:27 UTC 2012. Reason: add photo date

  7. #19

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    Bringing this from another thread to keep the discussion of the book's details here for easier reference:

    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    No no no--that is NOT what I'm asking.

    I am simply pointing out that even though a doctor may have treated vaginitis a few times, that doesn't mean he'd done an examination thorough enough to notice a damaged hymen. In other words, just because the pediatrician didn't see signs of molestation, doesn't mean they weren't there.
    In Kolar's book, he has a couple of chapters on the autopsy. Finally we find out in more detail that Dr. Meyer found the chronic vaginal injuries troubling evidence of prior sexual abuse. He immediately called a meeting of other professionals that afternoon. Let me quote from the book:

    From "Chapter Five, Cause and Manner of Death":

    Dr. Meyer conducted an external examination of JonBenét’s
    genitalia. [snip]

    He observed that there was fresh trauma located at the 7:00
    o’clock position at the hymeneal opening. The area was inflamed

    Page 57

    and had been bleeding, and it appeared to Dr. Meyer that a foreign
    object had been inserted into JonBenét’s genitalia at or near the
    time of her death.

    The site of the damaged tissue was excised and prepared for
    a pathology slide. Later examination would reveal the presence of
    ‘cellulose material’ in the membrane of the hymeneal opening that
    was consistent with the wood of the paintbrush used as a handle
    in the cord of the garrote.

    He noted that he didn’t consider this injury the result of
    a particularly vicious assault with a foreign object. A very small
    splinter of material was discovered during microscopic examination,
    and more trauma to the site would have been expected if the
    perpetrator had been intent on physically torturing the child.
    Dr. Meyer also observed signs of chronic inflammation around
    the vaginal orifice and believed that these injuries had been
    inflicted in the days or weeks before the acute injury that was
    responsible for causing the bleeding at the time of her death.
    This irritation appeared consistent with prior sexual contact.

    [snip]

    Dr. Meyer called together the Boulder County Child Fatality
    Advisory Review Team that afternoon, a protocol established by
    the coroner’s office that called for the review of all child fatalities
    that took place in the county. Members who served on the team
    were comprised of people from the Boulder Police Department,
    Boulder County Coroner’s Office, the Boulder County Sheriff’s
    Department, the Boulder District Attorney’s Office, and the
    Boulder County Department of Social Services.

    The team was provided with a briefing on what had taken
    place at the Ramsey home following the report of the kidnapping,
    and Dr. Meyer gave an overview of the autopsy findings. A number
    of things were discussed during the meeting, and the group
    determined that there were a number of questions that needed to
    be researched.

    They were interested in the family history and wanted to know
    if there had been any signs of previous sexual abuse with members
    of the family. There was an interest in determining if there had
    been any recent behavioral changes with the children at their
    schools. It was suggested that the teachers and classmates of
    JonBenét and Burke be interviewed.

    [snip]

    Page 60

    [snip].

    Following the meeting, Dr. Meyer returned to the morgue
    with Dr. Andy Sirontak, Chief of Denver Children’s Hospital
    Child Protection Team, so that a second opinion could be
    rendered on the injuries observed to the vaginal area of JonBenét.
    He would observe the same injuries that Dr. Meyer had noted
    during the autopsy protocol and concurred that a foreign object
    had been inserted into the opening of JonBenét’s vaginal orifice
    and was responsible for the acute injury witnessed at the 7:00
    o’clock position.

    Further inspection revealed that the hymen was shriveled and
    retracted, a sign that JonBenét had been subjected to some type of
    sexual contact prior to the date of her death.

    Dr. Sirontak could not provide an opinion as to how old
    those injuries were or how many times JonBenét may have been
    assaulted and would defer to the expert opinions of other medical
    examiners.
    Continuing in "Chapter Six, Interpreting the Injuries":

    Dr. Meyer was concerned about JonBenét’s
    vaginal injuries, and he, along with Boulder
    investigators, sought the opinions of a variety of other physicians
    in the days following her autopsy. Dr. Sirontak, a pediatrician
    with Denver Children’s Hospital, had recognized signs of prior
    sexual trauma but neither he nor Dr. Meyer were able to say with
    any degree of certainty what period of time may have been
    involved in the abuse.

    Experts in their field, physicians and forensic pathologists
    were consulted from St. Louis, Missouri; Dade County, Florida;
    Wayne County, Michigan, and Philadelphia, Pennsylvania to name
    just a few. They examined the series of photographs that depicted
    the injuries and came to the opinion that JonBenet had been
    subjected to sexual intrusion prior to the insertion of the foreign
    object that had created the injury at the time of her death.

    Page 63

    It was their opinion that the type of injury present with the
    hymen suggested that several different contacts had been made in
    the past and that digital penetration was consistent with this type
    of injury. The physicians were unable to date the previous injury
    or specifically quantify the number of times JonBenét had been
    assaulted, but were confident in their opinions that she had
    been subjected to sexual contact prior to the day of her murder.

    This particular information suggested that someone close to
    JonBenét had been responsible for abusing her in the weeks or
    months preceding her murder. As is often the case involving this
    type of childhood abuse, investigators had to consider the possibility
    that a family member, relative, or someone close to the inner
    circle of the family was responsible for the prior acts and possibly
    the murder of JonBenét. Someone had to have had access to
    JonBenét on repeated occasions to have perpetrated these injuries.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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    3 Dimensional

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  8. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    Here is the deeply secluded area that the terrorist squad used so they wouldn't be spotted
    If you get a chance to read the book, you're going to LOVE the first chapter: Kolar writes an amazing near-movie script of the Foreign Faction's planning and attack on John Ramsey.

    Thanks for the pic. Kolar also addresses the densely populated neighborhood issue.

    May we add your photo to the case library, with the exterior house pictures?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  9. #21

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    To extend the viewpoint of Bob's photo of the layout of the Ramsey house/backyard, here's another photo of that area that shows just how close the neighbor's fence was and smallness of the backyard.

    The photo was taken in April 2004 as I looked through the back gate at an angle. I was shocked to see how close the Ramsey house was to the neighbors and how tiny their backyard really was. The Ramsey house is even closer to the other neighbor, with both houses barely divided by a fence.

    I will add this photo to our Ramsey Case Library for reference.
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  10. #22

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    A big thank you to those who are printing excerpts of the book for discussion! I have ordered the book but it won't arrive until August 3rd. This thread will tide me over until then. Thank you again!

  11. #23
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    Default More seclusion

    Here's the grate. Note how narrow it is. I would love to know how anyone squeezed through it without leaving a mess of leaves and debris. Photo taken in 1999.
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    Last edited by Cherokee; July 21, 2012, 7:21 pm at Sat Jul 21 19:21:11 UTC 2012. Reason: add photo date

  12. #24
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    Cherokee--I was there years before 2004 and I am certain that fence was not there. I know because some lady was raking leaves in the next yard and she was in plain view. We also noticed how sound carried so easily there--we heard the neighbor raking before we saw her.

    And there's that cat...



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