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  1. #49

    Default Doug

    I haven't had a chance to read any today, still on pg 151.
    But, to answer your question about changing my mind (so far)
    about Doug spending the night was, Barbara Fenie asking why
    Burke was still sleeping and it wasn't like him to be sleeping he's a early riser
    like Doug.

    So, I think if Doug was there that night the R's would have told the
    F's what the boys did.

    I don't think she would have brought it to everyones attention that it was unusual and not normal Burke still sleeping.

    I think Burke staying bed looked very suspicious.


    brenk
    Last edited by Cherokee; July 23, 2012, 10:53 pm at Mon Jul 23 22:53:29 UTC 2012.

  2. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    She must be seeing something that I'm not.
    The closest thing I can find is much further into the book.

    Stine appeared to Kaempfer to have been disturbed by the conversation and had listened to Burke and Doug talk about how JonBenét had been strangled. Based upon Kaempfer’s statement, it appeared that Stine had over overheard the boys discussing whether or not manual strangulation had been involved in JonBenét’s death.
    Stine described the conversation as being “very impersonal,” and it struck her that the discussion about the details of JonBenét’s death was like the boys were “talking about a TV show.”

    Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 353
    Wow
    I despise the Ramseys and this is just my opinion

  3. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    Here is the "deeply secluded" area that the alleged foreign faction terrorist squad supposedly used so they wouldn't be spotted. The photo was taken in 1999.
    Thanks for this pic, BobC

  4. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    Here's the grate. Note how narrow it is. I would love to know how anyone squeezed through it without leaving a mess of leaves and debris. Photo taken in 1999.

    Excellent pic! Thanks so much as this gives a whole new perspective...one I've wanted for a long time.

  5. #53

    Default

    Can anyone tell me if Kolar says anything about if JBR definitely ate anything at the Whites? This is so important. I hope there is a witness statement, somewhere, that states JBR definitely was putting food in her mouth at the Whites.

  6. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Can anyone tell me if Kolar says anything about if JBR definitely ate anything at the Whites? This is so important. I hope there is a witness statement, somewhere, that states JBR definitely was putting food in her mouth at the Whites.
    Nothing definitive is said in the book with respect to that.
    All we have is Patsy’s statement:
    “she indicated that Priscilla had specially prepared a plate of cracked crab to ensure that she would have some to enjoy.”
    Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 117
    and this:
    “It is important to note that investigators determined that the Whites had not served pineapple during their dinner party.”
    Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 353

  7. #55

    Default

    Interesting in light of Kolar's book:

    THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER
    April 3, 2001

    RAMSEYS CHANGE THEIR STORY ABOUT MURDER NIGHT

    By David Wright & Don Gentile

    "John and Patsy Ramsey have changed the story they told cops about their daughter JonBenet's murder -- they now admit their son Burke was awake during that Christmas 1996 nightmare!

    In an exclusive ENQUIRER interview, the nation's most infamous murder suspects say Burke was jolted awake by screams in their Boulder, Colo. home.

    "Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy ...a woman in terror," John confessed. "We thought he was asleep but he wasn't. Burke was awake.

    "Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

    Until being questioned by The ENQUIRER, the Ramseys had always insisted that Burke was still sleeping when police arrived at their home after Patsy's 911 call.

    But now John has admitted to The ENQUIRER that Burke woke up before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 a.m. to summon police.

    In the Ramsey's face-to-face, in-depth interview with The ENQUIRER:

    * The Ramseys - who still staunchly proclaim their innocence - broke their silence about what Burke knows of the murder and revealed fears their son will explode emotionally from keeping "a lot inside."

    * Even though it's almost inconceivable that John and Patsy wouldn't talk to Burke about the murder, they say they didn't find out Burke was awake the morning of the tragedy until he testified before a grand jury nearly two and a half years later!

    * In chilling detail, the couple described the haunting nightmares and dreams they have about their murdered daughter.

    * Patsy recently asked her dying mother to come back after her death and reveal JonBenet's murderer.

    * John admits he saw the movie "Speed," which contains a key line found in the ransom note -- but claims he saw it on an airplane and didn't wear the headphones!

    When the Ramseys arrived for the interview in Atlanta, oddly enough, Patsy gave an ENQUIRER reporter a hug -- then served up a dish of shamrock shaped St. Patrick's Day cookies.

    In opening up about Burke for the first time, the Ramseys insisted they never once sat down with him to discuss the murder, but just said his sister "was gone...and was in heaven."

    They also never told him they'd signed papers to make John's brother Burke's guardian if they were arrested.

    The Ramseys were asked whether Burke, now 14, ever asked for details of JonBenet's death.

    "He has never...we have never talked about anything," said Patsy, who wore a purple suit and white blouse.

    John, looking weary in shirtsleeves, said they also never told Burke that they are suspects in the murder. But he revealed that an attorney he hired to represent Burke told the boy before he testified at a grand jury proceeding in May 1999.

    "His attorney sat him down and said, 'Understand, they are suspicious of your parents. Do you have any questions?'"

    Surprisingly, Burke said he didn't.

    "He's a pretty quiet kid," said John.

    John and Patsy worry that Burke is keeping things inside and they fear it will lead to an emotional blowup as an adult.

    "Yeah, I worry, you betcha we do," John said with a sigh. "In fact that's one of the risks you have with a child with a traumatic experience like that.

    "They keep a lot inside and they don't really start thinking about it until they get to be 40 years old and that's when it hurts."

    Burke has been strangely quiet about his sister's murder, the Ramseys reveal. They say it wasn't until Burke's 1999 grand jury testimony that they found out he was awake before police arrived -- but was pretending to be asleep.

    "Yeah, he testified to that. We thought he was asleep but he wasn't," said John, who had told police their son slept through the tragedy.

    A source close to the case declared: "It's hard to believe that John and Patsy didn't find out until tow and a half years after the murder that Burke was awake.

    "I know the reaction of the cops will be: 'Why didn't Burke tell them? Why couldn't he discuss his sister's death with them? Was it because Burke knew more than he dared to say about his parents' involvement?'

    "Whatever the reason, John and Patsy have changed their story."

    When asked when Burke woke up, John said it was after Patsy discovered the ransom note shortly after 5:30 a.m. Then he quickly changed his answer to say Burke woke up after the 911 call.

    But then John changed his story again, calling The ENQUIRER as we went to press to say that Burke was awake BEFORE the 911 call. John told us:

    "Burke recalled his mother screaming, 'Where's my baby?' and me saying, 'Calm down, calm down, we need to call the police.'"

    John's admission that Burke was awake came after The ENQUIRER revealed to him and Patsy the details of our earlier exclusive report that Burke's voice is heard on an enhancement made of the 911 call. The youngster says, "What did you find?" and "What do you want me to do?"

    John Ramsey tells his son, "We're not talking to you."

    But Patsy still insists: "When I made that phone call, burke Ramsey was nowhere in the vicinity of the telephone."

    Asked what goes through her mind when she recalls the events of JonBenet's death, Patsy gave a bizarre childlike answer.

    "It kind of makes my heart go pitty-pat. I mean right now, I'm feeling like, gosh, this happened to my child."

    During The ENQUIRER interview, Patsy admitted she considered and rejected the possibility that John was sexually abusing JonBenet. She openly admitted that during her struggle to defeat ovarian cancer between 1993 and 1994, John and Patsy's sex life suffered. She totally rejects the notion of John abusing JonBenet, but her reasoning is odd.

    She said her mother "came to take care of the kids (when I had cancer). She slept in the other bed in JonBenet's room. I mean, if John was coming in to molest JonBenet, you know that's not going to happen 'cause Grandma was right there every night."

    The Ramseys maintain that JonBenet's bed-wetting was not a problem.

    "This bed-wetting is nonsense stuff...a red herring," said John.

    Patsy added, her voice rising: "When children are really tired and they don't go potty before they go to bed, sometimes they have accidents."

    But the close source declared: "The investigators will never buy Patsy's claim that JonBenet's bedwetting wasn't significant.

    "Right after the murder, the Ramseys' housekeeper Linda Hoffmann-Pugh told police the bed- wetting was a big problem within the family."

    In discussing the ransom note, the Ramseys were reminded of an ENQUIRER exclusive that revealed police believe it was written by a killer using their opposite hand.

    Patsy, who is naturally right-handed, was asked if she can write with her left hand.

    "Can I write with my left hand?" she said, pondering the question. A smile crossed her face and she replied: "I can-- but not very well."

    She confirmed that to get a sample of her handwriting, police made her write the ransom note "every which way."

    The ENQUIRER asked if her left-handed writing was legible.

    "Oh, I don't know," she said, then changed her answer, saying it wasn't legible.

    That contradicts a source close to the investigation who said her left-handed printing of the note was legible.

    Both John and Patsy expressed a stunning ignorance about the most notable line in the ransom note, which reads, "Don't try to grow a brain, John."

    Even though references to the line have appeared in published reports many times since JonBenet's murder, they said they were totally unaware that the words are nearly an exact repeat of a line from the movie "Speed."

    "Oh, is that from that movie?" asked Patsy, her eyes opening wide.

    John admitted he had seen the film but insisted there's no way he could have remembered the line.

    "I watched part of 'Speed' on an airline one day -- without the headphones. All I see is this bus."

    In the years since the murder, Patsy said she has been haunted by a recurring nightmare about that tragic Christmas night.

    "I am in Boulder and walking the alleyways, the alleys behind our home -- and just searching and searching and searching. And you know I'll come upon a group of people standing there.

    And I'll say be careful, be careful, there's someone around here that's killing people. I have that dream over and over.

    "I kind of picture myself sitting up kind of toward the Flatirons (part of the Rocky Mountains overlooking Boulder) and just wondering in which house the murderer resides."

    John also has recurring dreams involving JonBenet -- but not as a 6-year-old, her age at the time of her death.

    "She's usually about 2 or 3 years old and I'm holding her," John said, describing the dreams as "very comforting. I wake up with a very close feeling."

    Patsy revealed she talked about her daughter -- whom she called Jonnie B. -- in her last conversation with her mother Nedra Paugh, who died recently.

    "You know you're going to be with Jonnie B. soon and you're gonna know everything soon," Patsy said she told Nedra. Then she added: "If anybody can come back and tell me, I know she will."

    Patsy was the last person to see JonBenet alive, sleeping in her bed -- "zonked," as she put it.

    She said she kissed her daughter and recited the prayer, "Now I lay me down to sleep." But she can't remember if there was a blanket on the bed, or if it was the one JonBenet was wrapped in when her body was found in a windowless basement room the next day.

    Pressed for further details of that night, Patsy responded like a woman who has had lawyers in her life for too many years: "It was 4 1/2 years ago. I have not rehearsed or reread my previous statements."

    In closing, Patsy said she "would love nothing more from The National ENQUIRER than to say "The ENQUIRER finds the killer.'" And if that happened, she added "I'll be your poster for for the rest of my life."

    Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner would not comment on the Ramsey interview.

    But in a gloomy assessment of where the case stands, he told The ENQUIRER: "there's really not much happening right now."

    The Ramseys remain under an umbrella of suspicion.

  8. #56

    Default

    My god. The NE interview. It's been so long, I completely don't remember a lot of that.

    In hindsight...the Ramseys again CHANGE THEIR STORY...and this time, John slips up.

    In an exclusive ENQUIRER interview, the nation's most infamous murder suspects say Burke was jolted awake by screams in their Boulder, Colo. home.

    "Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy ...a woman in terror," John confessed. "We thought he was asleep but he wasn't. Burke was awake.

    "Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."
    How did JR know Burke had tears in his eyes if he didn't even know Burke was awake?

    Those people have told so many lies, it's second nature to them.

    Originally Posted by cynic
    She must be seeing something that I'm not.
    The closest thing I can find is much further into the book.

    Stine appeared to Kaempfer to have been disturbed by the conversation and had listened to Burke and Doug talk about how JonBenét had been strangled. Based upon Kaempfer’s statement, it appeared that Stine had over overheard the boys discussing whether or not manual strangulation had been involved in JonBenét’s death.

    Stine described the conversation as being “very impersonal,” and it struck her that the discussion about the details of JonBenét’s death was like the boys were “talking about a TV show.”
    Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 353
    Wow. Someone disclosed a conversation with Stine?

    I don't think any of this is real to Burke. I think he was too young to understand what was going on with any kind of depth. I wonder if he's blocked a lot of it.

    But clearly he was unable to understand what he saw in the media, if Stine overheard this conversation. Wonder how, since Patsy said they got rid of their TV...which was playing in the background right in the video of them sitting in their living room at the time.

    Patsy's heart went pity-pat. Oh, lord, how many times that got inserted into parodies. No wonder Patsy was such rich fodder for the late night show comedy skits.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by zoomama View Post
    I had a hard time while reading this book to distinguish between what I thought might be new info and just stuff that I had forgotten about or that might have been old news. So having said that here is some info old or new it was different.

    On pg. 30 "Victim Advocates arrived on scene at approximately 6:45 AM as CSIs processed the scene for latent fingerprints. They reportedly followed the CSIs around cleaning up the messy fingerprint powder and were unwittingly destroying additional trace evidence that might have been discoverable."

    I had understood that many of the friends that showed up that morning were helpful Hannas who cleaned up things around the house but this is the first mention of Victim Advocates. And that they arrived so early in the morning.
    Steve Thomas does mention the victim advocates and the damage they did in his book (pg 21 in my paperback copy):

    By 6.45 two victim advocates from the police department had arrived, and the population inside the house continued to swell. Five minutes later, as a crime scene tech dusted for fingerprints, one of the advocates followed along, tidying up with a spray cleaner and a cloth. It was a terrible breach of procedure - possible trace evidence was being erased in the name of neatness.
    Since I'm in the UK and am expecting to wait at least 2-3 weeks for my copy of Kolar's book to arrive, I'm re-reading Steve Thomas and watching this thread with great interest and anticipation!

  10. #58

    Default

    I have to say I can't believe the NE would make up stuff or even tweak it from the Ramsey interview. This interview was part of a "settlement" agreement from their lawsuit against the parent company of the NE, which also owns the Globe.

    Don Gentile wrote a lot of NE articles about this case long before this one. He was no rookie to this game the Ramseys played.

    All to say the following is yet ANOTHER change in the Ramseys' story. How many times did we hear John and Patsy say they NEVER suspected each other...NEVER CROSSED THEIR MINDS?

    But Patsy admits this to THE NE? Must have been impossible to keep her lies straight by this time:


    During The ENQUIRER interview, Patsy admitted she considered and rejected the possibility that John was sexually abusing JonBenet. She openly admitted that during her struggle to defeat ovarian cancer between 1993 and 1994, John and Patsy's sex life suffered. She totally rejects the notion of John abusing JonBenet, but her reasoning is odd.

    She said her mother "came to take care of the kids (when I had cancer). She slept in the other bed in JonBenet's room. I mean, if John was coming in to molest JonBenet, you know that's not going to happen 'cause Grandma was right there every night."
    Last edited by Cherokee; July 26, 2012, 4:36 pm at Thu Jul 26 16:36:41 UTC 2012.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarifier View Post
    Steve Thomas does mention the victim advocates and the damage they did in his book (pg 21 in my paperback copy):



    Since I'm in the UK and am expecting to wait at least 2-3 weeks for my copy of Kolar's book to arrive, I'm re-reading Steve Thomas and watching this thread with great interest and anticipation!
    Oh, thanks for sharing that. You can be our official comparison guide, as I've been thinking I'm going to have to re-read Thomas' book after this one. I know Thomas wrote about a lot of this, as well.

    Honestly, it's the small details that Kolar includes that are so important. Also, a lot has happened since Thomas wrote his book.

    I will say that there is so much which is shocking...I've kind of thrown my hands up thinking people will really just have to read the book to get it all.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

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  12. #60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brenk View Post
    I haven't had a chance to read any today, still on pg 151.
    But, to answer your question about changing my mind (so far)
    about Doug spending the night was, Barbara Fenie asking why
    Burke was still sleeping and it wasn't like him to be sleeping he's a early riser
    like Doug.

    So, I think if Doug was there that night the R's would have told the
    F's what the boys did.

    I don't think she would have brought it to everyones attention that it was unusual and not normal Burke still sleeping.

    I think Burke staying bed looked very suspicious.


    Sorry, if you thought I had read something else.
    brenk
    No problem. Thanks for the explanation.

    By the way, to the rest of our group: brenk has kindly changed from her old hat "kk" so we won't be too confusing for y'all. I like brenk, as well--easy to remember.

    Brenk is NOT a , just a new hat.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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