So many abrasions!!

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Karen, Jul 23, 2012.

  1. Karen

    Karen Member

    I was reading the Bonita papers last night and in those papers she describes the wounds and marks in more of common type language rather than the medical jargon in the autopsy report. Now I know there is a lot of mistakes and some misinformation in the papers but I was focusing on the injuries and she seemed to be taking that info straight from the autopsy report and putting it into simple words. This is the part that jumped out at me:

    From the Bonita papers:

    The upper front surfaces of JonBenet's left shoulder contained horizontal scrapes with blue-green bruising apparent in the area of the injury.

    This is described I think in the autopsy report on page 4. It sounds like the same thing to me. I can't copy it to over here, sorry. I'm not that computer savvy. Anyway, reading the autopsy report and the Bonita papers focusing only on bruises and abrasions I never realized how "beat up" she actually was! She had bruising and abrasions everywhere, it seems like most of them were on the right side. Doesn't one have to be alive to bruise?
    Has anyone else noticed this and what could it mean?
     
  2. cynic

    cynic Member

    Just as the petechiae (broken capillary blood vessels) indicate that JonBenet’s heart was beating (when strangled,) any bruising could have occurred between the time that she received the head injury and was asphyxiated.
     
  3. Karen

    Karen Member

    When Patsy was picking out which gown to have JB buried in she picked out a sleeveless one. She asked John if JB had bruises on her arms. He said no. She asked again if he was sure and he said she had no bruises on her arms.

    How did he know? When he found her she was wearing the long sleeved white top and he never saw her again after that. How did he know,..and why did Patsy think John would know?
     
  4. heymom

    heymom Member

    Was the autopsy report even done by then? Where was this information given - I have never read it before. That's pretty darn strange...If Patsy had done the staging, including wiping down JonBenet's body, she would have known what she looked like. Did the gown have a high neck or did they use make-up to cover that bruise on her throat?
     
  5. Elle

    Elle Member

    Good for you, Karen, being very observant! Makes you wonder, doesn't it, if Patsy truly was the one who was in a rage and threw her around in anger against the bath or whatever? Maybe this was why she was asking John, and when did John find out as you ask!? I remember being surprised about quite a few things I came across when reading the Bonita Papers a long time ago.

    Wasn't there some talk about a book being written from these Bonita Papers a very long time ago? The secretary who took the notes or something? Maybe KK will know. She knows everything! :)
     
  6. heymom

    heymom Member

    Why would Patsy be worried about JonBenet's arms being bruised? Unless perhaps she had grabbed JonBenet or thought John or Burke had grabbed her...There weren't bruises though, so if Patsy had grabbed her, it wasn't hard enough to cause bruises. Which begs the question - If Patsy had grabbed JonBenet to change her and accidentally thrown her against the bathtub or another hard surface, why WEREN'T JonBenet's arms bruised? We're talking a HUGE force cracking this little girl's skull apart, but her arms are not bruised? It argues for someone not touching her with their hands but hitting her from above and possibly behind.
     
  7. Karen

    Karen Member

    heymom, I read it in the Bonita Papers.
    I thought maybe Patsy was asking it because there was someone else around to hear her and it makes her look innocent and unaware of Jonbenets injuries, but then John turns around and answers her! Blew me away. I read the Bonita Papers a very long time ago and thought I'd read them again while I'm waiting for my book.
    Patsy chose a sleeveless pageant gown for burial and I think it had ruffles or something to cover her neck area. Since it was sleeveless she wanted to know about her arms, and if bruises were going to show I presume she would have picked out something else.

    The Bonita Papers
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4502
     
  8. Elle

    Elle Member

    Another thought about Patsy being in a rage that night, JonBenét wasn't attending any pageants if they were going away on holiday the next morning, but Patsy would really need to be careful of JB's arms at all times if she attended pageants on a regular basis. Koldkase posted photographs displaying a few.

    An adult would know the consequences of throwing a child around in a rage if her head struck a hard object like the toilet bowl or bath(?), but when it comes to a nine year old boy like Burke, I could see an oblect like a torch being lifted to strike another child with it if he was going through a fit of anger.

    It's Patsy I see in a fit of rage relating to a soiled bed and being on the tired side from the whole Christmas scene. It's Burke I see being annoyed with JonBenét at the table quibbling with each other, but that blow to the head appears to have been done with an adult in a rage throwing a child around, I'm thinking! (?).
     
  9. heymom

    heymom Member

    If JonBenet had fallen against a hard object, wouldn't the side of her face/head have shown some bruising too? What about black eyes? My son hit his head on the side and he had facial swelling. And I still can't see how she could fall against something on TOP of her head, hard enough to cause her skull to be bashed in and cracked in half. The physics just don't add up for me.
     
  10. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I have to agree with this. As has been discussed many times, also there would have been other injuries such a "fall" or "throw" would have caused. Like a broken neck, bruises common with those types of injuries, to the arms and legs, back or sides, etc. A body that falls violently enough to cause such a fracture would necessarily have enough velocity to cause other injuries as the rest of the body followed the head into the contact surface.

    I think it was a blow using something heavy enough and with enough "length" to cause that much damage on the less rigid skull of a six year old.
     
  11. heymom

    heymom Member

    So you, like Steve Thomas, don't include John Ramsey in JonBenet's abuse/murder?
     
  12. Elle

    Elle Member

    Yes, I see what you're saying here. JonBenét's face wasn't bruised. and the hole in her head is large.
     
  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    I read recently on the net where his ex wife spoke very highly of him when she was asked about him in this light. She said he was a loving father to his first daughter. I prefer to believe it was experimentation on Burke's part, or maybe her step brother (?). I honestly don't know! None of us do! I think he is a very cold hard headed businessman. I wouldn't want him for a friend!
     
  14. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Ummm I've just had an idea re. the object used to cause the huge skull fracture in JB. What about a hand held shower nozzle or wand. I recently had to buy a new one because our water is so very hard and the old one was beyond unclogging. The new one was made mostly of silver coated plastic. But the old one that I'm now throwing away was heavy and metal. It is sort of flat sided when viewed from the side and could have made that initial elongated hole in her skull. Patsy could have used that shower nozzle to wash off the lower body of JB on a regular basis so as not to get her hair wet. But that night enraged over yet another wet bed or worse Patsy conked her over the head with the shower nozzle. Just a thought.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2012
  15. heymom

    heymom Member

    Narcissists don't have friends, Elle. They only have people who serve their needs, and when they don't serve their needs any more, they discard them, or throw them under the bus, as both John and Patsy did to their former friends, the Whites. If you read Patsy's testimony about Fleet and Priscilla, she tells the detectives that the other couple were basically sponging off them, she and John, and couldn't afford the lifestyle that the Ramseys enjoyed. I wonder if the Whites ever read her deposition and saw how she cast them in such a negative light...

    Anyway, I'm not letting anyone out of the suspect category. I think any of the 3 of the people in that house could have caused JonBenet's previous vaginal injuries, although I think it is less likely to have been Patsy. Since I believe John to be a narcissist (my opinion based on experience and reading), I think he is fully capable of not only molesting JonBenet, but of killing her AND doing all the staging except writing the ransom novel.l
     
  16. heymom

    heymom Member

    I think that may have caused a concussion or even a skull fracture, IF you could even get enough momentum to hit someone hard with it (since it is attached to the wall by a hose). But not to shatter JonBenet's skull and split it in half. That injury was horrific in the force it took to cave in her skull. I do not believe it was an accident. I believe the person who hit her in the head wanted to cause her harm at that moment.
     
  17. Karen

    Karen Member

    I'm still not over the notion there could have been a fourth person there that night. A JAR or a Doug Stine, or somebody who was staying with the familly that night. No videos, just a couple photographs doesn't sound like the way Patsy does things. NO VIDEOS of Christmas morning with two children in the house and one of them getting a new BIKE. No, this doesn't sound right to me at all. What or WHO is on that videotape that they hid?
     
  18. heymom

    heymom Member

    Look, there were several years where I have almost no photos on Christmas day, let alone videos. I was too busy with Church, presents, and then cooking Christmas dinner to bother taking pictures! I really can't imagine introducing another imaginary person into the Ramsey household after all these years. JAR has an alibi, he wasn't in Boulder. Why would Doug Stine be spending the night on Christmas? Doesn't make sense. The cops were not on top of their game, but I feel certain they would have found out that someone else was in the house. Also, I would bet if it had been a non-Ramsey, they'd have implicated that person in a heartbeat, in order to get the focus off themselves!

    Why do you think it might be someone else? John and Burke are both good suspects for the abuse. Is it hard to face that her own father or brother was abusing her for their own jollies?
     
  19. Karen

    Karen Member

    I am not comparing you and Patsy Ramsey. Why are you so defensive?
    There have been many theories posted here and elsewhere involving a 4th person in the house that night. We have talked about one since the Kolar book came out. Look around. You might find some interesting theories about a 4th person in the house that night. Look around...please.
    And yes, I don't see John as an abuser. I do have trouble with that. I also never bought into the "Burke and JB playing doctor that night" theory. I don't think it was Burke who committed the molestation that night, or ever.
    Look, just because you don't subscribe to a theory someone is asking questions about why don't you try not to jump all over them simply for having an idea different from yours!?
     
  20. heymom

    heymom Member

    I am not defensive. I was trying to explain that there can be a perfectly understandable reason why there were so few photos and no videos taken. I get the distinct impression that Patsy was responsible for EVERYTHING in the house and having to do with the children, plus she had been sick with cancer and going through chemo, and it sure didn't seem to me that John was any help at all to her in her illness (like any narcissist, he really couldn't care less). It would be overwhelming to have to handle all the details of making Christmas, then getting ready to fly up to MI, return, and go on a cruise, having been through cancer and chemo not very long before that. I get the feeling that Patsy was expected to simply carry on, as she had been, with no adjustment made for her illness.

    It could be that she asked for no help and always pushed herself beyond her capabilities, too. I know people like that, and they will go and go until they simply collapse, rather than stop moving and acknowledge that they are human.

    Why do you assume that because there are few photos, that there was someone else present in the house that night? It seems like quite a jump to me. I'm not a newbie on the forum, and I don't remember this theory being brought up before. Maybe it seemed too far-fetched to me at the time, I don't know. It seems :beammeup: to me now, so possibly.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice