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  1. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    So you, like Steve Thomas, don't include John Ramsey in JonBenet's abuse/murder?
    I read recently on the net where his ex wife spoke very highly of him when she was asked about him in this light. She said he was a loving father to his first daughter. I prefer to believe it was experimentation on Burke's part, or maybe her step brother (?). I honestly don't know! None of us do! I think he is a very cold hard headed businessman. I wouldn't want him for a friend!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  2. #14
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    Red face

    Ummm I've just had an idea re. the object used to cause the huge skull fracture in JB. What about a hand held shower nozzle or wand. I recently had to buy a new one because our water is so very hard and the old one was beyond unclogging. The new one was made mostly of silver coated plastic. But the old one that I'm now throwing away was heavy and metal. It is sort of flat sided when viewed from the side and could have made that initial elongated hole in her skull. Patsy could have used that shower nozzle to wash off the lower body of JB on a regular basis so as not to get her hair wet. But that night enraged over yet another wet bed or worse Patsy conked her over the head with the shower nozzle. Just a thought.
    Last edited by zoomama; July 25, 2012, 4:29 pm at Wed Jul 25 16:29:55 UTC 2012. Reason: mistyped a word.
    "When are we going to get our heads out of the sand and understand that sometimes really nice people who look good on the outside are dastardly on the inside." Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, MA

  3. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    I read recently on the net where his ex wife spoke very highly of him when she was asked about him in this light. She said he was a loving father to his first daughter. I prefer to believe it was experimentation on Burke's part, or maybe her step brother (?). I honestly don't know! None of us do! I think he is a very cold hard headed businessman. I wouldn't want him for a friend!
    Narcissists don't have friends, Elle. They only have people who serve their needs, and when they don't serve their needs any more, they discard them, or throw them under the bus, as both John and Patsy did to their former friends, the Whites. If you read Patsy's testimony about Fleet and Priscilla, she tells the detectives that the other couple were basically sponging off them, she and John, and couldn't afford the lifestyle that the Ramseys enjoyed. I wonder if the Whites ever read her deposition and saw how she cast them in such a negative light...

    Anyway, I'm not letting anyone out of the suspect category. I think any of the 3 of the people in that house could have caused JonBenet's previous vaginal injuries, although I think it is less likely to have been Patsy. Since I believe John to be a narcissist (my opinion based on experience and reading), I think he is fully capable of not only molesting JonBenet, but of killing her AND doing all the staging except writing the ransom novel.l
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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  4. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoomama View Post
    Ummm I've just had an idea re. the object used to cause the huge skull fracture in JB. What about a hand held shower nozzle or wand. I recently had to buy a new one because our water is so very hard and the old one was beyond unclogging. The new one was made mostly of silver coated plastic. But the old one that I'm now throwing away was heavy and metal. It is sort of flat sided when viewed from the side and could have made that initial elongated hole in her skull. Patsy could have used that shower nozzle to wash off the lower body of JB on a regular basis so as not to get her hair wet. But that night enraged over yet another wet bed or worse Patsy conked her over the head with the shower nozzle. Just a thought.
    I think that may have caused a concussion or even a skull fracture, IF you could even get enough momentum to hit someone hard with it (since it is attached to the wall by a hose). But not to shatter JonBenet's skull and split it in half. That injury was horrific in the force it took to cave in her skull. I do not believe it was an accident. I believe the person who hit her in the head wanted to cause her harm at that moment.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  5. #17

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    I'm still not over the notion there could have been a fourth person there that night. A JAR or a Doug Stine, or somebody who was staying with the familly that night. No videos, just a couple photographs doesn't sound like the way Patsy does things. NO VIDEOS of Christmas morning with two children in the house and one of them getting a new BIKE. No, this doesn't sound right to me at all. What or WHO is on that videotape that they hid?

  6. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I'm still not over the notion there could have been a fourth person there that night. A JAR or a Doug Stine, or somebody who was staying with the familly that night. No videos, just a couple photographs doesn't sound like the way Patsy does things. NO VIDEOS of Christmas morning with two children in the house and one of them getting a new BIKE. No, this doesn't sound right to me at all. What or WHO is on that videotape that they hid?
    Look, there were several years where I have almost no photos on Christmas day, let alone videos. I was too busy with Church, presents, and then cooking Christmas dinner to bother taking pictures! I really can't imagine introducing another imaginary person into the Ramsey household after all these years. JAR has an alibi, he wasn't in Boulder. Why would Doug Stine be spending the night on Christmas? Doesn't make sense. The cops were not on top of their game, but I feel certain they would have found out that someone else was in the house. Also, I would bet if it had been a non-Ramsey, they'd have implicated that person in a heartbeat, in order to get the focus off themselves!

    Why do you think it might be someone else? John and Burke are both good suspects for the abuse. Is it hard to face that her own father or brother was abusing her for their own jollies?
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  7. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Look, there were several years where I have almost no photos on Christmas day, let alone videos. I was too busy with Church, presents, and then cooking Christmas dinner to bother taking pictures! I really can't imagine introducing another imaginary person into the Ramsey household after all these years. JAR has an alibi, he wasn't in Boulder. Why would Doug Stine be spending the night on Christmas? Doesn't make sense. The cops were not on top of their game, but I feel certain they would have found out that someone else was in the house. Also, I would bet if it had been a non-Ramsey, they'd have implicated that person in a heartbeat, in order to get the focus off themselves!

    Why do you think it might be someone else? John and Burke are both good suspects for the abuse. Is it hard to face that her own father or brother was abusing her for their own jollies?
    I am not comparing you and Patsy Ramsey. Why are you so defensive?
    There have been many theories posted here and elsewhere involving a 4th person in the house that night. We have talked about one since the Kolar book came out. Look around. You might find some interesting theories about a 4th person in the house that night. Look around...please.
    And yes, I don't see John as an abuser. I do have trouble with that. I also never bought into the "Burke and JB playing doctor that night" theory. I don't think it was Burke who committed the molestation that night, or ever.
    Look, just because you don't subscribe to a theory someone is asking questions about why don't you try not to jump all over them simply for having an idea different from yours!?

  8. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I am not comparing you and Patsy Ramsey. Why are you so defensive?
    There have been many theories posted here and elsewhere involving a 4th person in the house that night. We have talked about one since the Kolar book came out. Look around. You might find some interesting theories about a 4th person in the house that night. Look around...please.
    And yes, I don't see John as an abuser. I do have trouble with that. I also never bought into the "Burke and JB playing doctor that night" theory. I don't think it was Burke who committed the molestation that night, or ever.
    Look, just because you don't subscribe to a theory someone is asking questions about why don't you try not to jump all over them simply for having an idea different from yours!?
    I am not defensive. I was trying to explain that there can be a perfectly understandable reason why there were so few photos and no videos taken. I get the distinct impression that Patsy was responsible for EVERYTHING in the house and having to do with the children, plus she had been sick with cancer and going through chemo, and it sure didn't seem to me that John was any help at all to her in her illness (like any narcissist, he really couldn't care less). It would be overwhelming to have to handle all the details of making Christmas, then getting ready to fly up to MI, return, and go on a cruise, having been through cancer and chemo not very long before that. I get the feeling that Patsy was expected to simply carry on, as she had been, with no adjustment made for her illness.

    It could be that she asked for no help and always pushed herself beyond her capabilities, too. I know people like that, and they will go and go until they simply collapse, rather than stop moving and acknowledge that they are human.

    Why do you assume that because there are few photos, that there was someone else present in the house that night? It seems like quite a jump to me. I'm not a newbie on the forum, and I don't remember this theory being brought up before. Maybe it seemed too far-fetched to me at the time, I don't know. It seems to me now, so possibly.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  9. #21

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    Hi Heymom, I don't consider Patsy's cancer to be a factor at that time as she was well over it and not even taking any drugs and medication for it anymore. She was getting clean bills of health by then. I agree JR wasn't any help to her during her illness.
    I think it was a household that had traditional roles as far as what the men do and what the women do, (although now it seems like women do so much more,) I think it was probably John Ramseys job to take the video and photos Christmas morning and not Patsys. He even said HE didn't take video because HE forgot to charge the batteries. So it leads me to think it was considered HIS job to do that. I don't know if I believe that story or not. IF there was someone else in the house and ON that video I don't think they would want that seen by LE. I don't really want to defend this theory because I'm not sure if it's something I subscribe to or not, I was just mulling it over.
    There was some talk somewhere around here somewhere recently about Doug Stine possibly going to Michigan with the Ramseys and possibly having been picked up when they dropped off the gifts on the way home from the Whites Christmas night. And maybe that's why the Stines were so close with the Ramseys after that, even picking up and quitting good jobs to follow them to Atlanta and things like that. Like I said I don't particularly subscribe to this theory but it is something I keep somewhere in the back of my mind since we don't know what really happened that night. I stay open to listening to and considering everything.

  10. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I'm still not over the notion there could have been a fourth person there that night. A JAR or a Doug Stine, or somebody who was staying with the familly that night. No videos, just a couple photographs doesn't sound like the way Patsy does things. NO VIDEOS of Christmas morning with two children in the house and one of them getting a new BIKE. No, this doesn't sound right to me at all. What or WHO is on that videotape that they hid?
    I wish we could have seen this video Karen. More than likely, if there was one, they destroyed it!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  11. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    Hi Heymom, I don't consider Patsy's cancer to be a factor at that time as she was well over it and not even taking any drugs and medication for it anymore. She was getting clean bills of health by then. I agree JR wasn't any help to her during her illness.
    I think it was a household that had traditional roles as far as what the men do and what the women do, (although now it seems like women do so much more,) I think it was probably John Ramseys job to take the video and photos Christmas morning and not Patsys. He even said HE didn't take video because HE forgot to charge the batteries. So it leads me to think it was considered HIS job to do that. I don't know if I believe that story or not. IF there was someone else in the house and ON that video I don't think they would want that seen by LE. I don't really want to defend this theory because I'm not sure if it's something I subscribe to or not, I was just mulling it over.
    There was some talk somewhere around here somewhere recently about Doug Stine possibly going to Michigan with the Ramseys and possibly having been picked up when they dropped off the gifts on the way home from the Whites Christmas night. And maybe that's why the Stines were so close with the Ramseys after that, even picking up and quitting good jobs to follow them to Atlanta and things like that. Like I said I don't particularly subscribe to this theory but it is something I keep somewhere in the back of my mind since we don't know what really happened that night. I stay open to listening to and considering everything.
    Ok, thanks for the further information. The saddest thing is, most of us will NEVER know what really happened in the Ramsey house that night. I expect that John will take what he knows to his grave, and Burke as well. Maybe Fleet White could have spoken out at some point, but that moment has come and gone too, and all hope of a trial has long ago been lost.

    May JonBenet finally get her justice on the other side.

    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  12. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    heymom's post to Koldkase!
    With all due respect, I don't think we can depend upon the outward responses of a sexual abuse victim toward her possible abusers. An abuser will tell his victim all sorts of lies in order to keep abusing, things like, "No one loves you as much as I love you," "All daddies love their little girls this way," etc. Not saying that John Ramsey WAS the abuser, just that abusers lie and therefore victims' behavior may not reflect the truth. To say nothing of the threats that are made, "Say anything and I will say it was YOUR idea," etc.

    JonBenet may have been being abused by just about anyone in her family.
    heymom,

    Please correct me if I'm wrong. A few years have passed and I think I remember you telling me you actually worked with abused children. Am I right? Forgive me, I just feel you were involved in some way or another, and this is why you have certain views. My apologies if I am wrong! (?).
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.



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