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  1. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    That photo shows an almost perfect match with that type of club, look at the top section of the fracture, where the stem of the club meets the bottom. It's the right shape, size and angle.
    Wow - good call, Heymom!

  2. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    A golf club was suspected as being the murder weapon--or at least one was the cause the head injury--very early on. But over time, the flashlight seemed to gain favor mainly because it was out on the kitchen table and shouldn't have been there given the recounting of events by the Ramseys. This goes to the heart of why this case will never be prosecuted. If we cannot even determine for sure what caused the massive head injury, how do you prove anything else?

    I have always believed that the flashlight was used to compose the ransom note and maneuver around the house in the dark. I think that Patsy left it on the table because she was freaked out and not thinking clearly. There is some debatable evidence that the light and batteries were washed--but that doesn't mean (for sure) it was the murder weapon.
    It seems more practical a flashlight would be in the kitchen as opposed to a golf club, Bob, don't you think (?).
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  3. #27
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    Of course--that's what I'm saying. Steve Thomas and others have theorized that the mag flashlight was the murder weapon (not the only theory but one of them) but all I'm saying is that there could have had another reason for it being on that kitchen table. In fact, I would wager that the reason it was left out in plain sight, with Patsy claiming she never saw it before, is that:

    1. It wasn't the weapon that caused the head blow--instead it was incidental to the staging. Which is why they forgot to get rid of it, or at least put it somewhere where it wouldn't be obvious.

    and

    2. After Patsy realized that she screwed up by leaving it on the table with other evidence, she had to act like she'd never seen it in her life. I mean who doesn't have a flashlight? The big deal that Patsy made at first about how she didn't have one set off a red flag for me.

    I now believe that a golf club was the weapon that struck the head blow. I believe the flashlight was used to give light to the person staging the crime scene.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Britt View Post
    Cherokee - I agree with your observations and analyses!

    I've long wondered if JB was hit with a golf club in the basement and that the broken window was connected to this. As in, the hitter swung the golf club, striking JB's head and then the window on the follow-through, or maybe there were multiple swings.

    This could be why the Ramseys tried to explain away and ignore the broken window.
    Thanks, Britt. It's good to see you posting again!

    That's a very interesting idea you suggested about why the basement window was broken! As we've said, would the Ramseys have REALLY left that window broken for so long and during the winter? If the window WAS broken during the swing back of the club before contact with JonBenet's head, it would make sense why the Ramseys would concoct ANOTHER story about the window - that it happened when John tried to get in the house without a key.

    Did you see my post about JonBenet's neck bruise also possibly being caused by a swing with a golf club? If it was, it might have been be part of the multiple swings you mentioned that could have happened, especially if the wielder was swinging the golf club in anger while trying to hit JonBenet.

    From what I've heard, Kolar says LE believes from the evidence JonBenet was killed in the basement. At this point, so do I.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    Did you see my post about JonBenet's neck bruise also possibly being caused by a swing with a golf club? If it was, it might have been be part of the multiple swings you mentioned that could have happened, especially if the wielder was swinging the golf club in anger while trying to hit JonBenet.

    From what I've heard, Kolar says LE believes from the evidence JonBenet was killed in the basement. At this point, so do I.
    Hi Cherokee Thanks so much to you and everyone else who've been posting the info from Kolar's book.

    Yes, I saw your post about JB's neck bruise and you could sure be right.

    I'm now thinking the whole scenario started and ended in the basement. It would also explain how the disgusting mess in JB's bedroom got overlooked/ignored. If the whole horrible event and subsequent staging were taking place in the basement, maybe there was simply no thought or time given to cleaning up the bedroom/bathroom upstairs.

    The basement scenario also fits with the train track "stun gun" marks. Is the train track just speculation or was that shown to match the marks?

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    Of course--that's what I'm saying. Steve Thomas and others have theorized that the mag flashlight was the murder weapon (not the only theory but one of them) but all I'm saying is that there could have had another reason for it being on that kitchen table. In fact, I would wager that the reason it was left out in plain sight, with Patsy claiming she never saw it before, is that:

    1. It wasn't the weapon that caused the head blow--instead it was incidental to the staging. Which is why they forgot to get rid of it, or at least put it somewhere where it wouldn't be obvious.

    and

    2. After Patsy realized that she screwed up by leaving it on the table with other evidence, she had to act like she'd never seen it in her life. I mean who doesn't have a flashlight? The big deal that Patsy made at first about how she didn't have one set off a red flag for me.

    I now believe that a golf club was the weapon that struck the head blow. I believe the flashlight was used to give light to the person staging the crime scene.
    I've always had to laugh that the Ramseys wouldn't claim ownership of the Maglite but said they had one just like it!

    Patsy says the Maglite they had, which looked exactly like the one left on the counter, was stored in the junk drawers in the bar area.

    I believe JonBenet was hit on the head in the basement, probably with a golf club. Patsy used the Maglite to write the ransom note so that she wouldn't have to turn on lights in the middle of the night. That might be too noticible to neighbors or any witnesses. Patsy was careful to clean the batteries and Maglite of fingerprints, just as she was careful to make sure there were no fingerprints on the ransom note!


    -----------

    25 LOU SMIT: Does that look like flashlight

    0242

    1 that you have or does --

    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it could be. It

    3 looks a little bigger than the one I had. But it

    4 could have been the same one.




    0513

    10 TOM HANEY: -- flashlight. Do you

    11 recognize that?

    12 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks similar to one that

    13 John Andrew gave John for Christmas, birthday or

    14 something.


    15 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall when it

    16 was he gave it to him or...

    17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not exactly, unh-unh (no).

    18 Although it looks kind of dirty there. I mean,

    19 if I remember --


    20 TOM HANEY: It looks different?

    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

    22 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Describe how it looks

    23 different.

    24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the one that I

    25 remember John having was pretty slick black, you

    0514

    1 know, and that looks kind of smudgy or gray or

    2 something.


    3 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. That's been processed,

    4 so it has been changed.

    5 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, okay.


    6 TRIP DeMUTH: Other than that, do you

    7 notice any differences from...

    8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).

    9 TRIP DeMUTH: That's similar to the one

    10 that John Andrew gave John?

    11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, uh-huh (yes).

    12 TRIP DeMUTH: And I think last time when

    13 you were here on last April --

    14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).

    15 TRIP DeMUTH: -- you said where that was

    16 stored.

    17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).

    18 TRIP DeMUTH: And I wanted to clarify that

    19 a little bit. Do you remember where it was

    20 stored?

    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the best I recall it

    22 was in like one of those junk drawers there in

    23 the bar area.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Britt View Post
    Hi Cherokee Thanks so much to you and everyone else who've been posting the info from Kolar's book.

    Yes, I saw your post about JB's neck bruise and you could sure be right.

    I'm now thinking the whole scenario started and ended in the basement. It would also explain how the disgusting mess in JB's bedroom got overlooked/ignored. If the whole horrible event and subsequent staging were taking place in the basement, maybe there was simply no thought or time given to cleaning up the bedroom/bathroom upstairs.

    The basement scenario also fits with the train track "stun gun" marks. Is the train track just speculation or was that shown to match the marks?
    The train track marks were shown to match the marks exactly. It's not speculation. In Kolar's book, there is a photo that shows the exact one-on-one match that was done by investigators.

  8. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britt View Post
    Cherokee - I agree with your observations and analyses!

    I've long wondered if JB was hit with a golf club in the basement and that the broken window was connected to this. As in, the hitter swung the golf club, striking JB's head and then the window on the follow-through, or maybe there were multiple swings.

    This could be why the Ramseys tried to explain away and ignore the broken window.
    Except that JonBenet was hit on TOP of her head so there would have been no follow-through, and the window did not seem to be freshly broken. However, John's lame story about having broken out the window long before that does argue that the actual truth was 180 from his tale. I always wondered why he made up that story since the broken window would add to the staging and argue for an intruder. That could have been the point of entry for the fictional intruder, if John had said, "No, that window was not broken before." Was he afraid his DNA and fibers would be found on it? Maybe that was why he insisted that he had actually removed his pants to go in through that window.

    If he was worried about evidence, why? Why would that window have John's DNA/fiber evidence on it, unless it was connected to the murder/staging of the crime?
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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  9. #33

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    Whenever the Ramseys start denying the evidence, acting like they never saw it before, what paintbrush, what Maglight, what ransom note, what cord, what's duct tape?

    I pay close attention.

    Because that's evidence that they know exactly how it got there, how it plays into the murder, and they're all over it.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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    3 Dimensional

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  10. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Whenever the Ramseys start denying the evidence, acting like they never saw it before, what paintbrush, what Maglight, what ransom note, what cord, what's duct tape?

    I pay close attention.

    Because that's evidence that they know exactly how it got there, how it plays into the murder, and they're all over it.
    Then that definitely applies to the window, and JR's ridiculous story of his half-naked break-in.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  11. #35

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    Several things:

    1. My main theory has always been BDI. Because of this, I wondered how a 9 y.o. could get enough power to depress a skull. I knew that a struggle, and subsequent fall against something like a toilet rim could produce the depression. I even performed a toilet rim experiment which convinced me it could have happened this way and any person could have been involved in such a scenario. But, since John asked for his golf bag, I also believed a 9 y.o. could depress a skull with an iron because of the leverage a golf club affords. To prove this (and I believe I posted this somewhere in one of these threads years back), I had my nine year old grandson strike a birch tree with a golf club iron. A birch tree has a smooth bark and I knew, if my grandson could depress the bark of this tree, BR could depress JBR's skull. Not surprisingly, he put a quarter inch depression in this hard bark. What is more, it was almost the exact dimension of the skull depression.

    2. I used to believe it was very possible that the basement window had been broken that night for staging. I was unclear about certain things and Kolar's book has cleared it up for me. I now know the basement window had been broken for some time because there is a cob web spun between the jagged edges of the broken window. I don't believe this would have been spun the night or day after the murder. I think the broken window afforded the Ramseys with a staging scenario and they did not have to break it that night.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Several things:

    1. My main theory has always been BDI. Because of this, I wondered how a 9 y.o. could get enough power to depress a skull. I knew that a struggle, and subsequent fall against something like a toilet rim could produce the depression. I even performed a toilet rim experiment which convinced me it could have happened this way and any person could have been involved in such a scenario. But, since John asked for his golf bag, I also believed a 9 y.o. could depress a skull with an iron because of the leverage a golf club affords. To prove this (and I believe I posted this somewhere in one of these threads years back), I had my nine year old grandson strike a birch tree with a golf club iron. A birch tree has a smooth bark and I knew, if my grandson could depress the bark of this tree, BR could depress JBR's skull. Not surprisingly, he put a quarter inch depression in this hard bark. What is more, it was almost the exact dimension of the skull depression.
    Learnin, did you happen to take a photo of the quarter inch depression made by the golf club in the tree bark? If so, would you please post it for us?

    One of the things I think is important to remember is that at the time of JonBenet's death, Burke was closer to ten years old than nine years old! He was only three weeks away from his 10th birthday on January 27th!

    Ramsey apologists try to act like Burke was only a small, wimpy, little nine-year-old kid. Burke was a full head taller than JonBenet and almost ten. The ten year old boys I've known could DEFINITELY have cracked a six year old's skull with a golf club, especially if it was swung in anger.



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