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  1. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    I have had a very hard time believing that Patsy or John could have actually pulled that cord taught around their beloved daughter's neck...and managed to fake the kidnapping after that. I can see Burke doing the whole thing, including poking JonBenet with the train tracks to see if she would respond. The paintbrush could have been done by him as well, not to cover up, but to just hurt her more at the end. After all, she wasn't bleeding or anything, so for all he knew, she might recover. Well, the cord finished that.
    Yesssss! I agree! We think alike.
    brenk

  2. #86
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    The whole crime doesn't fit either parent, or Burke, does it? That is why this crime has never been officially "solved." Nobody in that home fits any kind of stereotype of a kid killer.

    That being said--"good parents" flip out and kill their kids every day. Siblings do too, but nowhere near as often.

    I have always been fascinated by this case because I knew on an instinctual level that no one has gotten it quite right. Me included.

    Pasty writing the ransom note is a given. If I die tomorrow, no one will ever convince that that is not true. But why did she write it? does that mean she killed JBR in some anger fit? Maybe. But I am not convinced.

    Now about John.

  3. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    The whole crime doesn't fit either parent, or Burke, does it? That is why this crime has never been officially "solved." Nobody in that home fits any kind of stereotype of a kid killer.

    That being said--"good parents" flip out and kill their kids every day. Siblings do too, but nowhere near as often.

    I have always been fascinated by this case because I knew on an instinctual level that no one has gotten it quite right. Me included.

    Pasty writing the ransom note is a given. If I die tomorrow, no one will ever convince that that is not true. But why did she write it? does that mean she killed JBR in some anger fit? Maybe. But I am not convinced.

    Now about John.
    I beg to differ with you on this point, Bob. I think good parents do NOT flip out every day and kill their kids. Good parents realize when they are under stress and find some other way to handle it, rather than take it out on their children. Good parents might yell at their kids, but then they realize they are out of control, and remove themselves or their kids from the situation. Parents who are decent people do not kill their children. God created us to nurture our children, not kill them! The people who can overcome this nurturing instinct, or who are born without it, but have kids anyway, those people might kill their own kids, yes.

    People like Andrea Yates who seemed to be a good mom, but who may have been suffering from post-partum psychosis, are another subject entirely. Maybe Patsy had mental damage from her cancer treatment, and snapped that night. I know it's a theory a lot of people have. But with all this information about Burke that we now have, including the candy smeared with feces, I just wonder how much of that night belonged to Burke.

    I agree, we do know that Patsy wrote the ransom note. That's really about all we do know for sure.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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  4. #88

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    By the way, I just remembered a point a very astute WS member mentioned not long ago which I read: Burke wasn't tall enough to turn the "block of wood" which rotated to secure the cellar door at the top. I would be surprised if he could have done that without help.

    Of course he could have stood on one of the chairs in the basement to do that, which in fact JR brought in that mysterious "chair in front of the train room door" in 1998 with his DA interview with Smit.

    But all that staging for a not yet 10 year old? I don't think so.

    It's an interesting point, at any rate. BPD Officer Reichenbach noticed the wood block was turned to "lock" the door and he was supposed to be the first person in the basement that morning...other than the killer(s), of course.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  5. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    By the way, I just remembered a point a very astute WS member mentioned not long ago which I read: Burke wasn't tall enough to turn the "block of wood" which rotated to secure the cellar door at the top. I would be surprised if he could have done that without help.

    Of course he could have stood on one of the chairs in the basement to do that, which in fact JR brought in that mysterious "chair in front of the train room door" in 1998 with his DA interview with Smit.

    But all that staging for a not yet 10 year old? I don't think so.

    It's an interesting point, at any rate. BPD Officer Reichenbach noticed the wood block was turned to "lock" the door and he was supposed to be the first person in the basement that morning...other than the killer(s), of course.
    Great point. So he hits her and they clean up the mess. Is what I am getting. But Jesus to defile her like that.

  6. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I try very hard not to form a theory based on what I think someone could or could not do, emotionally or because of their character.

    The Ramseys have gotten away with this for all time because so many have believed their lies for those very reasons.

    So back to the evidence: Patsy is all over the garrote (fibers tied into knots); her fibers were on the duct tape in numbers more than expected as "transfer" from testing done by the CBI; the sexual assault (her paintbrush from her paint tray); her DNA on the gown next to the body (along with Burke's); her fingerprints on the pineapple bowl (along with Burke's); her pad, her pen, her handwriting, her language; her home; her pageant child who was being molested, who wet her bed constantly, who had feces all around her, and for some reason Patsy spent the last decade of her life denying this evidence even existed, all physical evidence found at autopsy, a scientific fact, to the contrary.

    There's also something else I think is important: Haney asked Patsy in detail in 1998 about when JB's bedsheets were changed. That's because JB's blood was found on the pillowcase on her bed. Haney asks Patsy if JB had nosebleeds, so I'm wondering if her DNA was blood which came from her nose.

    There was also a lot of frantic activity around JB's room that night: the drawers hanging open in her bedroom, her bathroom, JAR's bathroom; the diapers hanging out of the wash area cabinet; the paring knife left on the appliance in the washing area outside those two bedrooms; Patsy specifically said she first went to that area that morning...at least, in one version of events she told LE...to deal with some washing of clothes for JB; the note was left at the bottom of the spiral staircase, not at the bottom of the Ramsey's staircase to their bedroom, not the bottom of the main staircase near the front entrance, but the spiral staircase near JB's room.

    Those are some of the things I want to know the answers to: who was frantically running around looking for something in that area, retrieving a knife from the kitchen and abandoning it there, leaving drawers hanging open?

    Also, the blanket from JB's bed was removed at some point and Patsy denied knowing anything about that. She acted like it was all a great big mystery to her. Yet she said JB slept in Burke's room Christmas Eve, if memory serves, and I truly cannot imagine Burke taking the blanket off and making the bed up the night JB was killed.

    Patsy and Haney "pinned down" the last change of the sheets to within five days, possibly three, which Patsy had to consider what maid LHP would say, as LHP was the one Patsy said last changed the bed. Patsy was sticking to her story that LHP changed the bed, not Patsy--unless I'm misremembering, and please correct me if you have time to look it up, as right now, I have to run.

    My point is this: when did JB get an injury which left her blood DNA on the pillowcase? Was it from the head blow or from being molested? Who removed the blanket from her bed and remade it, and when?

    One thing I do believe, and I have no proof, but I'm going by my own experience with size and weight, when it comes to carrying sleeping children around as an adult--though in this case, it would be an unconscious and dying child, possibly: I doubt Burke could have carried JB down two flights of stairs to the basement. She weighed 45 lbs, I think, at autopsy. Burke was a lot larger than she was, as far as height goes, but he was still a slender little boy who did not appear to me to be stronger than normal kids his size and weight.

    So that's just something I wonder about when I'm trying to put the sequence of events into play.

    I have always felt that something happened in or near JB's room which caused the head injury, possibly a fight between the two children.

    Or maybe it happened at the table while eating pineapple and she was carried to her bed in a stunned reaction.

    Or maybe she was being molested in her bed and that's where it all started.

    Or maybe she wet her bed and got up and it went from there. Kolar said her bed reeked of urine, according to the crime scene techs who collected evidence.

    Turns out the PJ bottoms in JB's room with brown staining in the underwear was possibly Burke's, but that's odd because Burke would have had on boy's underwear, not panties, so seems to me that would be easy to determine, but Kolar isn't very specific on that.

    Then there's that...excretion...which Kolar told us about in his book, but didn't fully explain, so that leaves us with so many more questions.

    All I'm saying is the two people who seem to be all over this crime are Burke and Patsy. Maybe John didn't know as much as we suspect him of until it was too late. Maybe Patsy kept these things from John because in fact she was clearly not handling her children very well. Or maybe he helped once the head blow was struck.

    I don't know, but I'm not ruling anything out based on what I think someone was capable of doing. I don't know these people. I doubt many truly do.
    KK,

    I think John had to know what was going on that night. It had to be insane in that house. That is probably why he is so adament that he took Melatonin and passed out. Rigggggggggght. He has to say I heard nothing. He is now protecting his son and his wife who is writing the note and she herself takes some xanax or something - had to - because the writing gets better as it progresses. They all know. (The most bizarre thing is the defiling of JB). But then again look at Cindy Anthony and the lengths she has gone to protect Casey Anthony. Incredible.

    But then again, remember it was said that Burke came to them in the early hours when they were calling 911 and he asked what was going on and John said "were not talking to you". That was recorded I believe.

    That even lends more credence to Burke being involved. I always thought - well that was fairly cruel to talk to him like that, but if you knew this was his doing, one would talk to him like that.

    Patsy is all over the crime scene - so she knows for sure- now we are adding someone else into the mix due to more evidence. And it seems right. As far as John goes, he knows - there was too much going on. Way too much. And didn't a neighbor say something about the lights going on and off in the kitchen - so much time has passed I forget, but I seem to remember it. What the "f" happened that night.

    Maybe JB came down while Burke and Patsy were having tea and pineapple and Burke got jealous. Hey, it is plausible.

  7. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I've had that question myself, because when I get home from a party or social event, the first thing I do is undress, or at least take off my outer jacket, etc.

    If it were only her fibers, I'd probably be more open about how they got there, thinking okay, transference can explain them being all over the crime scene, weapon, and staging.

    But it's all the other elements that lead to Patsy that bring me to conclude those fibers weren't just coincidence from transference.

    As Kolar, Thomas, and many others who know much more than I, have said: it's the body of evidence, the preponderance, that convinces me Patsy was so involved in many elements of this crime.
    I can see transference from her hair but I cannot see them being all over the crime scene. Now if they only found them on JB, I would say well she hugged her or combed her hair and that is how they got there, but they are all over the basement crime scene. Patsy was there.

    Oh, also, there was the greenery from the staircase found in JB's hair, if I remember correctly. Jesus, was she carried to the basement from upstairs - maybe something happened in the kitchen with that flashlight (it was found in the drawer right? and it fits her head yes?) and it was wiped clean ) and maybe she was brought upstairs - and there is no way, no way, that whoever brought her up did NOT feel that crack in her skull - it is 8 1/2 inches. Jesus.

    But the garrott is really hard wrapping my head around. and the rest is just vile. Would a parent do that to protect another child who did this by accident - Yes!

  8. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by sboyd View Post
    Great point. So he hits her and they clean up the mess. Is what I am getting. But Jesus to defile her like that.
    Yeah, well, I couldn't have done it.

    But remember how many people the Ramseys fingered as a child molester and killer in their books, TV interviews, public speaking; how many they sued, pocketing the money while knowing full well what happened to JonBenet and that they were responsible; how many careers they watched dissolve and how much hurt they caused knowingly, without so much as flinching on national TV, Patsy dry-crying to convince the public she was too good to do this.

    Marilyn Van Derbur once said about her parents (her father molested her from age five to eighteen and Derbur believed her mother knew and turned her eye deliberately) when describing what they would have done to cover up the incest: "They'd have killed me and then gone to lunch."

    I think in families with incest, covering it up at all costs is more common than people know.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  9. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    By the way, I just remembered a point a very astute WS member mentioned not long ago which I read: Burke wasn't tall enough to turn the "block of wood" which rotated to secure the cellar door at the top. I would be surprised if he could have done that without help.

    Of course he could have stood on one of the chairs in the basement to do that, which in fact JR brought in that mysterious "chair in front of the train room door" in 1998 with his DA interview with Smit.

    But all that staging for a not yet 10 year old? I don't think so.

    It's an interesting point, at any rate. BPD Officer Reichenbach noticed the wood block was turned to "lock" the door and he was supposed to be the first person in the basement that morning...other than the killer(s), of course.
    I remember the chair being mentioned by John Ramsey, KK. More than likely the chair was probably in the basement, so he didn't need to carry that downstairs. So many things we forget. Only ten more days until my book arrives. Thank you again for all the time taken to print pages from "Foreign Faction". I would have been lost without them! Has Chief Kolar signed you up to work in his office yet?
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  10. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    I remember the chair being mentioned by John Ramsey, KK. More than likely the chair was probably in the basement, so he didn't need to carry that downstairs. So many things we forget.
    Not only is there a chair, but the stool would have probably also sufficed


    I'm not sure if this is the same chair or yet another chair.
    (This picture is from Kolar's book.)


  11. #95

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    Patsy was a pig. That's all I have for now. Carryon.

  12. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by sboyd View Post
    KK - Does Kolar say there was urine outside the cellar door or is that old info and I am not remembering it. Sorry to inundate you with questions.
    Sorry I just saw this, sboyd.

    I can't remember if Kolar mentioned urine on the carpet specifically outside the cellar door, but he did say LE believe JonBenet died there, where the garrote was constructed, by the paint tray.

    Lou Smit is the only source I've ever seen for that "urine on the carpet" info; he actually said that, probably in one of the Tracey crocs, but I honestly don't remember specifically. I do remember him saying it, though, because jams told everyone that, and when I heard Smit say it later, I knew her source had been Smit, as I had suspected, so I made note of it.

    Whether Smit was telling the truth, I can't say. But the urine on the front of her longjohns, the paintbrush splinters by the paint tray near that door, the ligature knot tied on the back of her neck, the green paint particle on her chin which matched that in the paint tray, a carpet fiber on her chin from the basement carpet, as well--these are things we've seen presented as evidence from various sources through the years. Now Kolar adds his inside information as a good source; so it does add up to that being the location of her death.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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