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  1. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Oh this is sickening, Karen. I hope I have this page printed (?). It is considerate of KK to post these pages from Kolar's book to keep us updated. I read that Burke may have Autism. Has this been confirmed?
    If Burke "has" anything, it would be very mild autism, sometimes termed, "high functioning autism," or, more commonly, Asperger's Syndrome. The main thing about Aspies is that they are abysmal at social relationships. They can be very good with concrete bits of information, facts, etc. so are usually excellent students (in our system where facts are everything). But their people skills are at just about zero. They don't "get" facial expressions, body language, voice intonations, and can be very boring with their recitation of discrete facts. "Rain Man" is usually brought up in the course of the austism spectrum, but Aspies are way more functional than he was. Most of us know at least one.

    But AFAIK, Burke was never diagnosed with anything, and in fact, has graduated from college with a B.S. in computer science, and is now working in his chosen field.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  2. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Yes KK, the tragedy of losing Beth and Patsy's cancer had to alter their thinking. Too much too handle there!

    I think I'm still leaning towards Burke being the one who hit JonBenét
    over the head while she was eating her pineapple. I don 't know of the distance between the table and the counter where the flashlight was. I did mention this before. Being the way he was, I could see Burke just walking away leaving JB unconscious and not giving a hoot. End results, the Ramseys determined to keep Burke out of it, and instead of a 911 call, they add the finishing touches to the scene with the garrote, and using the jagged end of the broken paint brush,I'm seeing Patsy here trying to
    cover up the previous sexual encounters she knew were there, but she wasn't successful according to the doctors who were asked for their opinion.

    The plan did work for them. The police were up the creek without a paddle because of whole Shebang. I feel this was Patsy's plan. It paid off!

    KK I haven't come across the feces in the candy yet. Oh good grief! I did print quite a lot yesterday and still have to read all of it. Hope I have that
    part printed. This makes me ill. What exact page was that KK?

    I won't receive my book until 17th August. Thank you so much for taking the time to post these pages from the book. You are a treasure!
    That's very interesting, Elle. I hadn't thought of the Maglight and JB at the table eating pineapple. It could be just that simple.

    Here you go, Elle, post #5. The statement about the box of candy is some ways down the quote:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ad.php?t=10148

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  3. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    The Ramseys always always ALWAYS made sure to point out to the media every time they spoke to them how they were such a normal, typical American family. Leave it to Beaver and Donna Reed. Now we know why that was mentioned so often and how it was so emphasized.
    Burke was a typical 13 year old? I don't think Burke was ever typical his whole life.
    I've raised a family myself. Two boys. They never played with their poop. That's just not normal, typical, I don't care what Patsy says.
    It seems like there was/is (?) something really wrong with Burke.
    Well, if there wasn't, no doubt there is now.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  4. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    If Burke "has" anything, it would be very mild autism, sometimes termed, "high functioning autism," or, more commonly, Asperger's Syndrome. The main thing about Aspies is that they are abysmal at social relationships. They can be very good with concrete bits of information, facts, etc. so are usually excellent students (in our system where facts are everything). But their people skills are at just about zero. They don't "get" facial expressions, body language, voice intonations, and can be very boring with their recitation of discrete facts. "Rain Man" is usually brought up in the course of the austism spectrum, but Aspies are way more functional than he was. Most of us know at least one.

    But AFAIK, Burke was never diagnosed with anything, and in fact, has graduated from college with a B.S. in computer science, and is now working in his chosen field.
    We don't know WHAT Burke was diagnosed with because those medical records have never been relased, and Lacy REFUSED to issue a subpoena for them or ask the Ramseys for them as Kolar requested! Those records were exactly what Kolar needed to further the case investigation, but Lacy didn't want to hurt her relationshp with the Ramseys, and as KoldKase said, Lacy did everything but have Kolar arrested for even asking!

    Just as with autism, there are varying degrees and levels of Asperger's Sydrome, and I personally know of one person in my family who has it, but he has functioned socially, has friends, etc. However, he has trouble reading facial emotions in others, and doesn't always know when he has hurt people's feelings. He is very bright with a high IQ, like most people with high-functioning Asperger's.

    From everything I've seen about Burke, as well as his life now, he fits the high-functioning Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis. This includes the excerpts we've see from Burke's interview with the psychologist where he answered a question with "beep beep," seemed disinterested and detached, and was more focused on whether the pyschologist was wearing a Rolex than anything else. From a private source in WV, we know Burke attended some kind of special program when he was very young (before the move to Colorado) because of of his anger issues and being different, as the source put it.

    One thing about people with Asperger's (who are mostly male) is that they don't do well when plans are changed or their things are "messed with." Like people with autism, if they set up something a certain way, they don't like for it to be changed. It's part of the OCD symptoms associated with autism and Asperger's. People with Asperger's have trouble dealing with frustration, so they they flash in anger.

    As for Burke, he may have graduated from college with a computer science, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have Asperger's. Many people with Asperger's graduate from college (my family member included) and work in their chosen fields, especially in the field of computer science because they are so intelligent and are drawn to what some consider "nerdy" types of activities, hobbies and jobs.

  5. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Dr. Lee was wrong about one thing, though. He termed it an "horrific domestic accident." But whatever was brought down upon JonBenet's head that night was no accident. Perhaps the person who did it was angry, but anger is no accident. Neither was the staging an accident. Accidental homicide, I suppose...No intention to kill the other, but using deadly force does mean something.
    Dr. Lee was specifically talking about JonBenet's death, not the cover up, and he used the word "accident" to say the circumstances of JonBenet's death's were NOT premediated. By using the adjective "horrific" Dr. Lee implied there was anger and rage involved, and he wasn't talking about a "falling down the stairs" type accident.

    In addition, by using the adjective "domestic," Dr. Lee implied there was no intruder, but that JonBenet's death was caused by a family member in the house at the time.

  6. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    We don't know WHAT Burke was diagnosed with because those medical records have never been relased, and Lacy REFUSED to issue a subpoena for them or ask the Ramseys for them as Kolar requested! Those records were exactly what Kolar needed to further the case investigation, but Lacy didn't want to hurt her relationshp with the Ramseys, and as KoldKase said, Lacy did everything but have Kolar arrested for even asking!

    Just as with autism, there are varying degrees and levels of Asperger's Sydrome, and I personally know of one person in my family who has it, but he has functioned socially, has friends, etc. However, he has trouble reading facial emotions in others, and doesn't always know when he has hurt people's feelings. He is very bright with a high IQ, like most people with high-functioning Asperger's.

    From everything I've seen about Burke, as well as his life now, he fits the high-functioning Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis. This includes the excerpts we've see from Burke's interview with the psychologist where he answered a question with "beep beep," seemed disinterested and detached, and was more focused on whether the pyschologist was wearing a Rolex than anything else. From a private source in WV, we know Burke attended some kind of special program when he was very young (before the move to Colorado) because of of his anger issues and being different, as the source put it.

    One thing about people with Asperger's (who are mostly male) is that they don't do well when plans are changed or their things are "messed with." Like people with autism, if they set up something a certain way, they don't like for it to be changed. It's part of the OCD symptoms associated with autism and Asperger's. People with Asperger's have trouble dealing with frustration, so they they flash in anger.

    As for Burke, he may have graduated from college with a computer science, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have Asperger's. Many people with Asperger's graduate from college (my family member included) and work in their chosen fields, especially in the field of computer science because they are so intelligent and are drawn to what some consider "nerdy" types of activities, hobbies and jobs.
    I know that, Cherokee. It was a response to Elle's question of autism. That is why I went into the explanation of high functioning autism or Asperger's. Have had quite a bit of exposure to different grades of Aspies myself.

    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  7. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    I know that, Cherokee. It was a response to Elle's question of autism. That is why I went into the explanation of high functioning autism or Asperger's. Have had quite a bit of exposure to different grades of Aspies myself.

    Heymom, I was specifically addressing what you said about "Burke was never diagnosed with anything, and in fact, has graduated from college with a B.S. in computer science, and is now working in his chosen field."

    I thought from what you wrote you were saying Burke had never been diagnosed with anything, and that by graduating college and working in "his chosen field," it somehow proved he probably didn't have Asperger's.

    My point was we don't KNOW if Burke was diagnosed with anything because his medical/psychological records have never been released, but he certainly has the symptoms of high-functioning Asperger's.

    As I've said before, it's often hard to tell from just the internet written word what a person is trying to say. You can't hear the tone, and it's harder to intuit meaning. Thanks for the clarification.

  8. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    Heymom, I was specifically addressing what you said about "Burke was never diagnosed with anything, and in fact, has graduated from college with a B.S. in computer science, and is now working in his chosen field."

    I thought from what you wrote you were saying Burke had never been diagnosed with anything, and that by graduating college and working in "his chosen field," it somehow proved he probably didn't have Asperger's.

    My point was we don't KNOW if Burke was diagnosed with anything because his medical/psychological records have never been released, but he certainly has the symptoms of high-functioning Asperger's.

    As I've said before, it's often hard to tell from just the internet written word what a person is trying to say. You can't hear the tone, and it's harder to intuit meaning. Thanks for the clarification.
    No, what I meant to say is that Burke is definitely NOT the "Rain Man" type of autistic. Since he has gone through school, has friends, seems to have normal interests, and has graduated from college, and has a job, that would rule out the middle section of the spectrum. We know he's not on the severe end, so that leaves Asperger's, with a scale of its own. I'd judge him to be on the higher end of high-functioning. Of course I don't know him, or how his relationships turn out, so if I were to encounter him I might change my mind. But certainly all the outward signs that we have seen, indicate someone who can and is functioning well within society.

    Assuming of course, that he's not simply a sociopath.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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  9. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Assuming of course, that he's not simply a sociopath.
    I would love to hear your thoughts on this. I'm reading Kolar's book and the chapter "Enigma" is really blowing my mind. I have questions that I'd not considered before.

    On p. 351 he says, "... Dr. Bernhard explained that anxiety such as that displayed by Burke at points in his interview comes from caring and that this type of behavior is not typically observed in sociopathic personalities."

    But after reading all the other info... like I said, questions. For one thing, I have to wonder what the "anxiety" is about. I mean, is it really caring... then "caring" about what? Could it be anxiety about being caught or angering a parent etc? Are there situations where a sociopathic child would display (or act out) anxiety?

    I'd be very interested in hearing your and others' thoughts about the info in this chapter.

  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britt View Post
    I would love to hear your thoughts on this. I'm reading Kolar's book and the chapter "Enigma" is really blowing my mind. I have questions that I'd not considered before.

    On p. 351 he says, "... Dr. Bernhard explained that anxiety such as that displayed by Burke at points in his interview comes from caring and that this type of behavior is not typically observed in sociopathic personalities."

    But after reading all the other info... like I said, questions. For one thing, I have to wonder what the "anxiety" is about. I mean, is it really caring... then "caring" about what? Could it be anxiety about being caught or angering a parent etc? Are there situations where a sociopathic child would display (or act out) anxiety?

    I'd be very interested in hearing your and others' thoughts about the info in this chapter.
    I think she meant that on some level, the question or the answer to it matters to him. I am sure she did not mean "caring" in the sense of love and/or empathy, but more that he has some sort of reaction about the question. A true sociopath would not "care" about getting caught out by a parent, and probably wouldn't much care about angering a parent either.

    Burke also over-reacted when Dr. Bernhardt accidentally took a drink of his soda - he got angry and said he could no longer drink from it. That shows a rigid mental state, and someone who could get angry because of someone else's innocent act. Maybe the Dr. was trying to prod him into losing his temper so she could judge how angry he was.

    Now, I am no expert on sociopaths. I have done a LOT of reading, and some people in the field of abnormal psychiatry do feel that these "soulless" individuals are born that way, and show the signs of it at an early age. Some have abuse done to them, and their response is to stop caring about others completely.

    What I found fascinating is that Kolar describes these "sexually aggressive" children (their acts are sexual but that does mean they are acting out anything sexual, if that makes any sense) can commit violent acts, even murder, but that there is hope that they can recover through therapy. I always assumed that any child who could do this to another person, especially a sibling, was a sociopath who would act out again in his lifetime. Even true sociopaths can control themselves if they need to stay out of the spotlight - there are many serial killers who have stopped murdering for 10, 20, even 30 years and then either started up again, or turned themselves in. But usually, once a person commits this kind of violence, it seems to lead to repeat occurrences.

    That was always my concern for the BDI people - if he did, why hasn't he done anything else since that night? Now, I can't ask that question any more, since he was in therapy, it would seem both before and after JonBenet's murder. Maybe he was one of the people who did get "cured." Unless he eventually either confesses, or acts out again, we will never know.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  11. #47

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    Heymom - Thanks so much for your reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    ...and some people in the field of abnormal psychiatry do feel that these "soulless" individuals are born that way, and show the signs of it at an early age.
    Wonder if there could be a genetic link to John Ramsey here. Sure seems to me that JR could be a sociopath, pathological liar that he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    That was always my concern for the BDI people - if he did, why hasn't he done anything else since that night? Now, I can't ask that question any more, since he was in therapy, it would seem both before and after JonBenet's murder. Maybe he was one of the people who did get "cured."
    That makes sense.

  12. #48

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    I think these questions we have are at the heart of why Kolar wouldn't commit to page his own theory of what happened that night and in this family.

    Without the actual studied medical history, observed and diagnosed by a professional in child psychology who did spend time in sessions with Burke sufficient to make a diagnosis, it's like guessing why the wind gusts blew a tree over but left the lawn furniture sitting there undisturbed.

    Personally, I think children in general aren't fully developed socially or biologically to the point of earning a permanent label with a specific diagnosis such as sociopathic. We all have human survival instincts that we have to train and control, after all. Even as adults, we can react in extreme situations as we wouldn't otherwise. It's why the law considers "mitigating circumstances" in sentencing for crimes.

    I believe Kolar even pointed out sexual aggression as a SBP is something that can be successfully treated in a relatively short time, according to the expert source he consulted on the subject?

    It does seem the Ramseys had Burke in therapy a long time, for a kid they claimed didn't even ask questions about why his beloved sister disappeared from his life one Christmas night.
    Last edited by koldkase; August 9, 2012, 7:02 pm at Thu Aug 9 19:02:08 UTC 2012.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
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