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  1. #61

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    The problem is, Father Holverstock doesn't even know exactly what he heard John say. In fact, in the quote from Kolar's book, Holverstock gives TWO different versions of what he thinks he heard John say ... and how do we know if he even got either one of those two right?

    According to Holverstock, John COULD have said, "she was warm, she was wrapped in a blanket." That is a lot different than, "I don't think he meant to kill her, because she was wrapped in a blanket."

    I think we're putting too much credence into hearsay, and even that hearsay is suspect. Holverstock is not sure of what he heard, and the first part of the first version "I don't think he meant to kill her ..." is NOT EVEN CLOSE to the first part of of Holverstock's second version, "she was warm ..."

    It would be worth giving attention to what Holverstock thinks he might have heard if he had only given ONE version and was SURE of what he heard John say. He's not. And I'm afraid that leads us down a slippery slope, making conclusions based on faulty non-evidence.

    I'm glad you asked this question, Learnin, because I think it's important to set the record straight that we DON'T know exactly what John said because Holverstock isn't even sure of what John said, and he was there!

    ----------------------------------------

    Page 88

    Quote:
    Father Holverstock advised he had been heating a glass of water in the kitchen microwave when things began to happen. Fleet White had a look on his face that he'd "never seen before," and racing past him through the kitchen, exclaimed that JonBenet had been found.

    The next thing he knew, he was standing in the foyer area near the top of the basement stairs, and John Ramsey had his daughter in his hands. It was Holverstock's recollection that Ramsey blurted out, "I don't think he meant to kill her, because she was wrapped in a blanket," or that "she was warm, she was wrapped in a blanket."

  2. #62

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    But the victim advocates , Grace Morlock and ? (can't remember her name,) said they heard the same thing. Holverstock isn't the only one who heard JR say that.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    But the victim advocates , Grace Morlock and ? (can't remember her name,) said they heard the same thing. Holverstock isn't the only one who heard JR say that.
    You're right:
    After JonBenét’s body was found, victim advocate Grace Morlock told detectives, John Ramsey said more than once that he didn’t think the kidnapper meant to kill his daughter, because she was wrapped in her blanket.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 80

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    koldkase, in another thread, raised some questions about the statement, uttered by John, as he brought JBR's body upstairs. Koldkase wondered if JR was referring to BR or was he just trying to throw the suspicion on another
    "insider". Good question.

    For, if JR was referring to BR, then, it would seem he was totally unaware of the staging that was done...meaning PR and BR were the only ones involved.

    I'm going to give my opinion on JR's statement and the reasoning behind it. I would be interested what other posters glean from this most revealing statement uttered by JR.

    First of all. JR read the ransom note and he had all morning (if he was truly unaware of what took place) to think about what might have happened. Surely, BR would have crossed his mind and he would've questioned the lad before police arrived. Also, he had to know, if he thought five minutes about it, that BR could not have written the ransom note.

    Secondly. JR rushed BR out of the house and would not let him be questioned by LE saying: "He was asleep, he didn't know anything." Why would he do such a thing if he (JR) was truly ignorant about what was going on? Remember. At this time, if JR was ignorant, JR thought the body was out of the house. So, if JR was truly ignorant, then, JR could not have suspected BR at this point. Ransom note plus body gone out of the house equals BR's innocence.

    It appears, then, that JR wasn't ignorant so why did he implicate BR by stating a he was involved and that he didn't mean to do it?

    I have two theories about this statement:

    JR had to feel that the staging was a long shot...that they probably weren't going to pull this thing off so, when he met Father Rol at the top of the steps with his little girl's dead body, he wanted Father Rol to know (if the truth came out) that BR didn't mean to hurt her.

    But he didn't want LE to know this for when he came face to face with Arndt, he said: "This is an inside job." Why not make the same remark to Arndt? Why not say: "He didn't mean to hurt her, she was warm and covered up?

    TWO:

    They (PR and JR) staged a kidnapping by someone who was close to the family. FW, MP and LHP, Santa Bill, etc., etc. Now both statements, made by JBR (He didn't mean to hurt her and this is an inside job) make sense.

    Which one of these do you think come closer to the truth and do you have any theories of your own?

    What implicates John in the actual crime, evidence? The only thing I can think of right now is the dark fibers from his Israeli made shirt.
    I don't think John knew anything about that absurd ransom note. He would not have let Patsy put in 118,00.00 or good southern common sense and fat cats, no way. So maybe he really was reading the ransom note for the very first time that morning, and he recognized Patsy all over it. I think he did question Burke that morning. We already know Burke was up, he was on the 911 call and so was John sounding pretty :(:(:(:(ed off at Burke.
    I starting to wonder what exactly John really did have to do with the actual crime.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    The problem is, Father Holverstock doesn't even know exactly what he heard John say. In fact, in the quote from Kolar's book, Holverstock gives TWO different versions of what he thinks he heard John say ... and how do we know if he even got either one of those two right?

    According to Holverstock, John COULD have said, "she was warm, she was wrapped in a blanket." That is a lot different than, "I don't think he meant to kill her, because she was wrapped in a blanket."

    I think we're putting too much credence into hearsay, and even that hearsay is suspect. Holverstock is not sure of what he heard, and the first part of the first version "I don't think he meant to kill her ..." is NOT EVEN CLOSE to the first part of of Holverstock's second version, "she was warm ..."

    It would be worth giving attention to what Holverstock thinks he might have heard if he had only given ONE version and was SURE of what he heard John say. He's not. And I'm afraid that leads us down a slippery slope, making conclusions based on faulty non-evidence.

    I'm glad you asked this question, Learnin, because I think it's important to set the record straight that we DON'T know exactly what John said because Holverstock isn't even sure of what John said, and he was there!

    ----------------------------------------

    Page 88

    Quote:
    Father Holverstock advised he had been heating a glass of water in the kitchen microwave when things began to happen. Fleet White had a look on his face that he'd "never seen before," and racing past him through the kitchen, exclaimed that JonBenet had been found.

    The next thing he knew, he was standing in the foyer area near the top of the basement stairs, and John Ramsey had his daughter in his hands. It was Holverstock's recollection that Ramsey blurted out, "I don't think he meant to kill her, because she was wrapped in a blanket," or that "she was warm, she was wrapped in a blanket."
    I guess I read that differently when I ran across it in Kolar’s book.
    I read it as Rol hearing one of two things:
    "I don't think he meant to kill her, because she was wrapped in a blanket,"
    or
    "I don't think he meant to kill her, "she was warm, she was wrapped in a blanket."

    And we do have confirmation from one other witness:
    After JonBenét’s body was found, victim advocate Grace Morlock told detectives, John Ramsey said more than once that he didn’t think the kidnapper meant to kill his daughter, because she was wrapped in her blanket.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 80

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    koldkase, in another thread, raised some questions about the statement, uttered by John, as he brought JBR's body upstairs. Koldkase wondered if JR was referring to BR or was he just trying to throw the suspicion on another
    "insider". Good question.

    For, if JR was referring to BR, then, it would seem he was totally unaware of the staging that was done...meaning PR and BR were the only ones involved.

    I'm going to give my opinion on JR's statement and the reasoning behind it. I would be interested what other posters glean from this most revealing statement uttered by JR.

    First of all. JR read the ransom note and he had all morning (if he was truly unaware of what took place) to think about what might have happened. Surely, BR would have crossed his mind and he would've questioned the lad before police arrived. Also, he had to know, if he thought five minutes about it, that BR could not have written the ransom note.

    Secondly. JR rushed BR out of the house and would not let him be questioned by LE saying: "He was asleep, he didn't know anything." Why would he do such a thing if he (JR) was truly ignorant about what was going on? Remember. At this time, if JR was ignorant, JR thought the body was out of the house. So, if JR was truly ignorant, then, JR could not have suspected BR at this point. Ransom note plus body gone out of the house equals BR's innocence.

    It appears, then, that JR wasn't ignorant so why did he implicate BR by stating a he was involved and that he didn't mean to do it?

    I have two theories about this statement:

    JR had to feel that the staging was a long shot...that they probably weren't going to pull this thing off so, when he met Father Rol at the top of the steps with his little girl's dead body, he wanted Father Rol to know (if the truth came out) that BR didn't mean to hurt her.

    But he didn't want LE to know this for when he came face to face with Arndt, he said: "This is an inside job." Why not make the same remark to Arndt? Why not say: "He didn't mean to hurt her, she was warm and covered up?

    TWO:

    They (PR and JR) staged a kidnapping by someone who was close to the family. FW, MP and LHP, Santa Bill, etc., etc. Now both statements, made by JBR (He didn't mean to hurt her and this is an inside job) make sense.

    Which one of these do you think come closer to the truth and do you have any theories of your own?
    Learnin,

    I think John Ramsey was speaking out loud because he knew he wasn't alone. Fleet White was close behind him and he knew others were present. I think his statement ... "He didn't mean to kill her" ... was directed to the kidnapper. I doubt he would mean his own son, Burke. For starters, I don't think Burke Ramsey close on ten years old would think to wrap JonBenét in a blanket etc. More than likely he would be looking for his Nintendo.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    I guess I read that differently when I ran across it in Kolar’s book.
    I read it as Rol hearing one of two things:
    "I don't think he meant to kill her, because she was wrapped in a blanket,"
    or
    "I don't think he meant to kill her, "she was warm, she was wrapped in a blanket."
    Thanks, Cynic. You're right. We read those sentences two different ways. Now that I see YOUR version of what was written in the book, I agree that it's possible Holverstock quote was meant to be understood that way. If the phrase, "I don't think he meant to kill her" was supposed to be part of BOTH versions, then that changes the literal interpretation of the sentence structures and means the only difference in the two versions is the possible insertion of the sentence "she was warm" between the two other sentences of "I don't think he meant to kill her," and "she was wrapped in a blanket."

    That's not the way the quote is written, so there is room for confusion. It's just another lesson in: we know what we mean to say, but it's not always translated on to the page. Thanks for the clarification.

    And we do have confirmation from one other witness:
    After JonBenét’s body was found, victim advocate Grace Morlock told detectives, John Ramsey said more than once that he didn’t think the kidnapper meant to kill his daughter, because she was wrapped in her blanket.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 80
    That's true, and I had forgotten about what Grace Morlock said. In the PMPT version, John's quote is gender neutral without a specific pronoun, and so I wasn't sure if John was referring to the pretend "kidnapper" as a male or female, especially since he also said it was an inside job, and the Ramseys tried to implicate Linda Hoffman-Pugh in JonBenet's death.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    Thanks, Cynic. You're right. We read those sentences two different ways. Now that I see YOUR version of what was written in the book, I agree that it's possible Holverstock quote was meant to be understood that way. If the phrase, "I don't think he meant to kill her" was supposed to be part of BOTH versions, then that changes the literal interpretation of the sentence structures and means the only difference in the two versions is the possible insertion of the sentence "she was warm" between the two other sentences of "I don't think he meant to kill her," and "she was wrapped in a blanket."

    That's not the way the quote is written, so there is room for confusion. It's just another lesson in: we know what we mean to say, but it's not always translated on to the page. Thanks for the clarification.



    That's true, and I had forgotten about what Grace Morlock said. In the PMPT version, John's quote is gender neutral without a specific pronoun, and so I wasn't sure if John was referring to the pretend "kidnapper" as a male or female, especially since he also said it was an inside job, and the Ramseys tried to implicate Linda Hoffman-Pugh in JonBenet's death.
    Cherokee, I would just love to be a fly on the wall in your classroom while you're teaching. I can just hear your voice teaching your class going over
    everything you just said above!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  9. #69
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    It certainly shows that JR had a pretty good understanding of the FBI's idea of behavioral "undoing," doesn't it? If you find your daughter strangled to death, the last thing you think is that her killer cared about her or didn't mean to do it.

    To me, this shows that JR was aware of what happened for some time, knew who did it, and knew that certain things were done to comfort JBR after death.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    It certainly shows that JR had a pretty good understanding of the FBI's idea of behavioral "undoing," doesn't it? If you find your daughter strangled to death, the last thing you think is that her killer cared about her or didn't mean to do it.

    To me, this shows that JR was aware of what happened for some time, knew who did it, and knew that certain things were done to comfort JBR after death.


    Exactly, Bob!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  11. #71
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    Exclamation

    I had another thought about these statements of JR. The part "she was warm" is what made me think of this. After the head injury and according to Kolar the 90 min time before she was strangled her body remained warm because she wasn't dead though someone thought she was. So she was wrapped in a blanket so as to not be cold. Does that make sense? Now who the person is that is doing this remains a query for me. Burke would know enough to cover someone just as he had been covered so many times in his resting/sleeping times. So that is what he did. Later when he checked on her he had to tell someone that JBR didn't move and to come see. (Here if where the poking takes place to see if she was alive or would move.) I think that would have been Patsy he would have told. JR just wasn't the warm fuzzy kind of Dad you'd go to tell things to, I believe. So that leaves me to think that up til then JR didn't know what was going on.
    Last edited by zoomama; August 27, 2012, 1:21 pm at Mon Aug 27 13:21:57 UTC 2012. Reason: Typo
    "When are we going to get our heads out of the sand and understand that sometimes really nice people who look good on the outside are dastardly on the inside." Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, MA

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by zoomama View Post
    I had another thought about these statements of JR. The part "she was warm" is what made me think of this. After the head injury and according to Kolar the 90 min time before she was strangled her body remained warm because she wasn't dead though someone thought she was. So she was wrapped in a blanket so as to not be cold. Does that make sense? Now who the person is that is doing this remains a query for me. Burke would know enough to cover someone just as he had been covered so many times in his resting/sleeping times. So that is what he did. Later when he checked on her he had to tell someone that JBR didn't move and to come see. (Here if where the poking takes place to see if she was alive or would move.) I think that would have been Patsy he would have told. JR just wasn't the warm fuzzy kind of Dad you'd go to tell things to, I believe. So that leaves me to think that up til then JR didn't know what was going on.

    We're on the same page, Zoomama, about the blanket. I just put this on another thread, but I'm going to copy it here as it does make sense to me.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Let's say for whatever reason, one of the Ramseys hit JB with a golf club, Maglite, whatever, in the kitchen/breakfast area/living room.

    She goes down.

    If her parents were still up, if this were right after they got home, the kids eating pineapple, etc., what happened next?

    She's got a head injury that is fatal, but how do they know that?

    Did she convulse? Everyone who works with such injuries has told us there's no way to know.

    But...

    Maybe that's why someone got her pillow--to put under her head while she was still alive, a blanket to keep her warm...before she was strangled.

    Not knowing what to do...can't take her to the ER because they'll find out she's been sexually assaulted? Make her comfortable...while we think, make some calls...?

    An hour or two until she's strangled. Blood seeping into her skull and swelling of the brain. Pineapple digested during this time.

    Thoughts?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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