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  1. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    I went to lunch with some co-workers the other day and decided to do a very simple test. None of them knew a thing about this case so there was no bias. I told them all to pretend they were Patsy Ramsey, and that their son and daughter were very close to each other, sleeping on the 2nd floor. You wake up around 5 am to start breakfast before catching a plane later that morning. You find a ransom note on the stairs that states someone has kidnapped your daughter. You run upstairs and find her gone.

    My simple question to my friends was this:

    What is the first thing you do after finding JBR missing?

    Every single one of them looked at me like I was stupid for asking, and then replied "Wake up Burke" or some variation of that like "keep Burke close to you."


    When I told them what went on with Burke that morning, "sleeping in" for hours while police swarmed the house, John shielding him from questions, etc.--all of my friends just got this look on their faces like they didn't believe that what I was saying could really have taken place, because none of it made sense.

    One of them even asked if the Ramseys were in prison.

    Nope!
    There you go! And BobC, I bet we could conduct that little experiment of yours with a 1,000 people (who knew nothing about this case) and everyone of them would give the same answer...

    Those two shoulda got 3 months just for saying they did not wake their son.

    Man, even if both of them were guiltless, they should've spent a couple of years behind bars just for screwing up the whole investigation.

  2. #86

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    Good discussion.

    I'm of the opinion that, if JR was totally ignorant when he heard PR scream, then PR did the whole thing. I simply can't believe that PR would fail to get JR if she found that BR had mortally wounded their daughter.

    Now. As Karen stated, maybe PR fessed up after JR read the ransom note and knew PR had written it. Maybe, at that point, she fingered BR and this is why they reported that BR slept through the whole thing. If you think about it, this would explain everything that happened after that.

    1. JR and PR's coldness toward one another after police arrived. It is stated
    that they stayed in separate rooms and JR never comforted his wife. Think about it. JR would have been very upset that PR didn't get him when BR, supposedly, inflicted the wound.

    2. "He didn't mean to kill her."

    3. The hiring of separate lawyers since PR was the one who did the staging, etc., without JR's knowledge.

    4. Father Rol's coldness toward PR at the church service that I think Shapiro or someone reported on whereby he greeted JR and ignored PR during the offering of peace.

    5. It would also explain the 911 conversation after the phone was supposedly hung up: Here, BR is asking questions and JR cuts him off.

    I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm just throwing it out there as it would
    explain a lot.

    I could see it playing out something like this.

    JR: "This letter is phony as shoet! It's your handwriting...you wrote this thing. What's going on?

    PR: "No, I didn't.

    JR: "The hell you didn't...what did you do?"

    PR: "Listen John...I'm just protecting our son. blah blah blah....


    But then again: Why wasn't John's fingerprints on that ransom note since we know he handled it? Or did he?

  3. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Good discussion.

    I'm of the opinion that, if JR was totally ignorant when he heard PR scream, then PR did the whole thing. I simply can't believe that PR would fail to get JR if she found that BR had mortally wounded their daughter.

    Now. As Karen stated, maybe PR fessed up after JR read the ransom note and knew PR had written it. Maybe, at that point, she fingered BR and this is why they reported that BR slept through the whole thing. If you think about it, this would explain everything that happened after that.

    1. JR and PR's coldness toward one another after police arrived. It is stated
    that they stayed in separate rooms and JR never comforted his wife. Think about it. JR would have been very upset that PR didn't get him when BR, supposedly, inflicted the wound.

    2. "He didn't mean to kill her."

    3. The hiring of separate lawyers since PR was the one who did the staging, etc., without JR's knowledge.

    4. Father Rol's coldness toward PR at the church service that I think Shapiro or someone reported on whereby he greeted JR and ignored PR during the offering of peace.

    5. It would also explain the 911 conversation after the phone was supposedly hung up: Here, BR is asking questions and JR cuts him off.

    I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm just throwing it out there as it would
    explain a lot.

    I could see it playing out something like this.

    JR: "This letter is phony as shoet! It's your handwriting...you wrote this thing. What's going on?

    PR: "No, I didn't.

    JR: "The hell you didn't...what did you do?"

    PR: "Listen John...I'm just protecting our son. blah blah blah....


    But then again: Why wasn't John's fingerprints on that ransom note since we know he handled it? Or did he?
    He probably didn't. And it was probably never laid out across the step on the spiral staircase either. And he probably never laid it out on the floor to read it while Patsy was on the phone either. But then again, why weren't Patsys fingerprints on it?

    About your #3, I believe they had to have separate criminal lawyers by law. One lawyer couldn't represent two different people in a criminal case. It's different in a civil case ala Woody.

  4. #88
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    I want to know what everyone thinks JR was doing when Det. Arndt lost track of him in the house, before he "found" JonBenet's dead body. Was he hiding the evidence of what had really happened? Was he saying goodbye to his daughter? Or was he adding something to the scene? Maybe that is when a few of the calls were made? Did the phone trace extend to John's cell phone (that was lost, how convenient, lah-de-dah!)?

    Just wondering....
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  5. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    I want to know what everyone thinks JR was doing when Det. Arndt lost track of him in the house, before he "found" JonBenet's dead body. Was he hiding the evidence of what had really happened? Was he saying goodbye to his daughter? Or was he adding something to the scene? Maybe that is when a few of the calls were made? Did the phone trace extend to John's cell phone (that was lost, how convenient, lah-de-dah!)?

    Just wondering....
    We'll never know about the phone calls, thanks to the disgraceful actions of that judge. But I'd bet some calls were made. I think he was definitely in the basement, possibly adjusting some things, and maybe even pulling her closer to the door (by sliding her along the floor in the blanket).
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  6. #90
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    Learnin--I'm with you. A Small Foreign Faction was in your house, "kidnapped" your daughter, killed her, and you don't bother asking your other kid if he was okay, let alone if he saw or heard anything?

    The most ignorant parent on the face of the earth should be stripped of his or her parental duties if they thought that. I mean, come on.

  7. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    I want to know what everyone thinks JR was doing when Det. Arndt lost track of him in the house, before he "found" JonBenet's dead body. Was he hiding the evidence of what had really happened? Was he saying goodbye to his daughter? Or was he adding something to the scene? Maybe that is when a few of the calls were made? Did the phone trace extend to John's cell phone (that was lost, how convenient, lah-de-dah!)?
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    We'll never know about the phone calls, thanks to the disgraceful actions of that judge. But I'd bet some calls were made. I think he was definitely in the basement, possibly adjusting some things, and maybe even pulling her closer to the door (by sliding her along the floor in the blanket).
    I agree with DeeDee. I think he was in the basement, possibly making calls and double-checking for evidence they'd overlooked, all in preparation for his having to "find" JBR's body himself since the police hadn't. Since he disappeared not long after the deadline for the kidnapper's non-existent call and her body hadn't yet been found, he knew he was probably going to have to do it himself, IMO.

    I think he/they originally had more elaborate plans involving getting the body out of the house, using the plan set up by the note (Plan A), but then couldn't figure out how to do it once faced with the reality of the cops and house full of people.

    So he went down to the basement between 10:30 and 11:00 with the intent of "finding" the body himself (Plan B) and decided to give it a little more time (maybe on advice from a phone call?) for someone else to find her OR for a more credible opportunity to do it himself. To just arbitrarily disappear and reappear with her body would be way too suspicious.

    I also agree that he possibly slid her body into a more visible spot. Then he went back upstairs and waited for the opportunity for someone else to find her or for the opportunity to do it himself in the least suspicious way possible under the circumstances - thank you, Linda Arndt.

    I think his comment later about finding JB at 11:00 a.m. was because that was when he was first preparing to do it (launch of Plan B) prior to thinking better of it, and had that 11:00 time in his mind.

  8. #92
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    JR's "11 am" comment directly corresponds to the time Arndt said he was "missing" - between 10 am and noon. They made quite FEW slips of the tongue. Saying he "found" her at 11 am was one of them. Saying "that wasn't supposed to be there" when shown a crime photo of the pink nightie on the white blanket in the wineceller was another.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  9. #93
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    I'm slow moving with reading Kolar's book. I have family visiting us, but I am reading it, and I was very surprised at my last reading to find out at the bottom of page 132 - 133 investigators noted something unusual in the Ramsey home.

    A. James Kolar Foreign Faction Page 132 - 133

    Not long after arriving in the home, investigators noted something unusual. Small wiring ran from several motion detectors and they seemed to lead to a locked closet beneath the basement stairs. Though the house was old and had been subjected to extensive remodeling, the detectives thought it odd that the wiring to these devices would not have been concealed in the ceiling or walls.

    Upon closer inspection, the motion detectors appeared to contain small camera lenses.

    Sergeant Wickman kicked in the door of the closet and observed a VHS recorder was actively recording four different rooms of the interior of the home. He directed Detective Gosage to collect the tape and later confirmed that members of the BPD investigative team had been recorded on the tape as they moved around the home.

    Closer examination of the recorder revealed that it was not set to record upon the activation of a motion detector but had to be manually turned on to enter a record mode.
    You can read the rest in your books! Unbelievable! Something far wrong with this scene, folks!

    Why were the Ramseys not hauled over the coals for this incident? Frustrating!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  10. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    I'm slow moving with reading Kolar's book. I have family visiting us, but I am reading it, and I was very surprised at my last reading to find out at the bottom of page 132 - 133 investigators noted something unusual in the Ramsey home.

    You can read the rest in your books! Unbelievable! Something far wrong with this scene, folks!

    Why were the Ramseys not hauled over the coals for this incident? Frustrating!
    I guess if the DA had been objective, Elle...they would have been. But whatever the Ramseys did, they did with immunity.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  11. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Britt View Post
    I agree with DeeDee. I think he was in the basement, possibly making calls and double-checking for evidence they'd overlooked, all in preparation for his having to "find" JBR's body himself since the police hadn't. Since he disappeared not long after the deadline for the kidnapper's non-existent call and her body hadn't yet been found, he knew he was probably going to have to do it himself, IMO.

    I think he/they originally had more elaborate plans involving getting the body out of the house, using the plan set up by the note (Plan A), but then couldn't figure out how to do it once faced with the reality of the cops and house full of people.

    So he went down to the basement between 10:30 and 11:00 with the intent of "finding" the body himself (Plan B) and decided to give it a little more time (maybe on advice from a phone call?) for someone else to find her OR for a more credible opportunity to do it himself. To just arbitrarily disappear and reappear with her body would be way too suspicious.

    I also agree that he possibly slid her body into a more visible spot. Then he went back upstairs and waited for the opportunity for someone else to find her or for the opportunity to do it himself in the least suspicious way possible under the circumstances - thank you, Linda Arndt.

    I think his comment later about finding JB at 11:00 a.m. was because that was when he was first preparing to do it (launch of Plan B) prior to thinking better of it, and had that 11:00 time in his mind.

    Yea, Arndt sure gave John the break he needed. I wonder how things would have played out had she not asked John to take a look???

    And. John must've really been on edge for her to suggest a thing...I mean he must've really been close to panic to make her suggest a thing. And I bet John liked to scared her to death jumping out of that chair when she suggested he look the house over.

    When you think about it, is it any wonder Arndt thought John was good for it when he came up carrying his daughter's body???? Think about it. Cops searched the house. She suggests John look the house over and he makes a bee line to the basement and comes up, in a couple of minutes, with the body....Would any one have thought differently?

  12. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Yea, Arndt sure gave John the break he needed. I wonder how things would have played out had she not asked John to take a look???

    And. John must've really been on edge for her to suggest a thing...I mean he must've really been close to panic to make her suggest a thing. And I bet John liked to scared her to death jumping out of that chair when she suggested he look the house over.

    When you think about it, is it any wonder Arndt thought John was good for it when he came up carrying his daughter's body???? Think about it. Cops searched the house. She suggests John look the house over and he makes a bee line to the basement and comes up, in a couple of minutes, with the body....Would any one have thought differently?
    No, unless it was DA Hunter. Unconscionable that this detective was left completely ALONE to try and keep the crime scene under control! Of course she couldn't prevent John and Patsy from contaminating JonBenet's body! If JR had truly wanted to leave, could she even have stopped him? I seriously doubt it. All talk of how many bullets she had in her gun aside - Big talk from a BPD detective. Who knows when she'd even drawn her gun last, let alone go to the range.

    As for what would have happened had Arndt not told JR and FW to search the house....Well, the smell of a decaying body would have eventually wafted up the stairs...and someone else would have found JB's body, with less contamination, and no movement of her corpse...JR figured he'd better get his DNA on her somehow in case it was found after the body was found...I am sure he wanted to have an excuse for his fiber evidence or DNA being found on her. Plus he was the first to see and remove her ties on her wrists, so he could tell a story about how tightly she had been bound. That was of course, a lie.

    I think he needed to get the "show on the road," so to speak, get them out of that house and away from LE, so he beat cheeks down to the basement to get the ball rolling.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!



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