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  1. #1

    Default Three critical questions

    Last night while reading and posting at WS I either had an epiphany or another brain fart.

    It occurs to me that there are three things we need to know to decide if Patsy and/or John put that ligature on JB's neck and pulled it.

    If one or both did, then it's murder one and no statute of limitations.

    If John was involved, then it's still a prosecutable case. It would be time to let a jury decide.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    In his book, Kolar lays out the "organized" vs "disorganized" elements of this crime scene. It got me to thinking about that. I believe it's very likely the head blow was from a disorganized, blitz attack, and the strangulation, staging, and ransom note were organized.

    So I'm looking at this from that perspective: who did what, and when.

    WHEN is critical. I"m not speaking of the actual TOD, but from the perspective of 90 minutes of sheer hell, after which the head blow was trumped by strangulation.

    JonBenet's death started that night with the head blow: according to Kolar medical examiner Meyer determined, consulting with a number of other experts brought in, that the head injury came first. Then it was approx. 90 minutes until the ligature was tightened to strangle the child to death.

    That death, according to Kolar and other sources we've seen, took place by the paint tray, outside the cellar door.

    Working from that premise, I have three critical questions. If we had the answers, I think we'd know the truth about who strangled--and therefore killed--JonBenet Ramsey.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    So the first question is this: What happened in that 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation?

    The second question is this: How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray/carpet area by the wine cellar?

    Finally, the answer to question three might tell the tale: Where did the head blow actually occur in the home?


    I'd like to see what you think of these questions, what you speculate and theorize for the answers, and see where that takes us.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  2. #2

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    For background of the medical examiner's determination of timing between the head injury and strangulation:

    From Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?; by A. James Kolar

    Page 15:

    The injury to her brain was serious, and for all intents and
    purposes, she gave the appearance of being dead. But that eventually
    was determined not to be the case. Her heart continued to beat
    for what was estimated by pathologists to be another ninety (90)
    minutes, slowly filling her cranium with blood. Due to the lethality
    of the blow to her head, however, it is unlikely that she ever
    regained consciousness.
    Page 60:

    Dr. Meyer told the investigators that it would have taken some
    time for the brain swelling to develop, and there likely had been
    a period of JonBenét’s survival from the time she received the blow
    to her head and when she was eventually strangled. He reported
    that this would have been a lethal blow, and that he did not think
    it likely that she regained consciousness.
    Page 64-5:

    Dr. Lucy Rorke, a neuro-pathologist with the Philadelphia
    Children’s Hospital, helped explain the timing of some of the
    injuries sustained by JonBenét. She told investigators that the blow
    to the skull had immediately begun to hemorrhage, and it was
    not likely that she would have regained consciousness after
    receiving this injury. The blow to the head, if left untreated, would
    have been fatal.

    The presence of cerebral edema, swelling of the brain,
    suggested that JonBenét had survived for some period of time after
    receiving the blow to her head. Blood from the injury slowly began
    to fill the cavity of the skull and began to build up pressure on her
    brain. As pressure increased, swelling was causing the medulla
    of the brain to push through the foramen magnum, the narrow
    opening at the base of the skull.

    Dr. Rorke estimated that it would have taken an hour or so
    for the cerebral edema to develop, but that this swelling had not
    yet caused JonBenét’s death. “Necrosis,” neurological changes to
    the brain cells, indicated a period of survival after the blow that
    could have ranged from between forty-five (45) minutes and two
    (2) hours.

    As pressure in her skull increased, JonBenét was beginning to
    experience the effects of “brain death.” Her neurological and
    biological systems were beginning to shut down, and she may
    have been exhibiting signs of cheyne-stokes breathing. These are
    short, gasping breaths that may be present as the body struggles to
    satisfy its need for oxygen in the final stages of death.

    The medical experts were in agreement: the blow to JonBenét’s
    skull had taken place some period of time prior to her death
    by strangulation. The bruising beneath the garrote and the
    petechial hemorrhaging in her face and eyes were conclusive
    evidence that she was still alive when the tightening of the ligature
    ended her life.
    To reiterate the 3 critical questions, in a more chronological order:

    Where did this head blow occur that night in the home?

    What happened in the 90 minutes between that blow and the strangulation?

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray where she was strangled and expired?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    For background of the medical examiner's determination of timing between the head injury and strangulation:

    From Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?; by A. James Kolar

    Page 15:



    Page 60:



    Page 64-5:



    To reiterate the 3 critical questions, in a more chronological order:

    Where did this head blow occur that night in the home?

    What happened in the 90 minutes between that blow and the strangulation?

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray where she was strangled and expired?

    Where did this head blow occur that night in the home?

    I think it depends on what caused the head wound. If it was a golf club, the head wound probably occurred on the first floor or the basement. If a toilet rim, faucet, etc., upstairs. Flashlight? Probably first floor or basement.
    I'm going to concentrate on what caused the head injury. As someone stated, the depression looks oval shaped. I used to think it was rectangular.

    What happened in the 90 minutes between that blow and the strangulation?

    Depends on who struck, or caused, the blow. If PR caused head wound, then, there would have been a period of time trying to revive JBR....grieving...planning and then executing the plan. If BR caused head wound, and no one witnessed it, then, JBR could have laid unconscious for a period of time before being discovered...maybe when PR went to look for her in order to put her to bed.

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray where she was strangled and expired?

    If PR caused the head wound, she was carried there. If BR, then, the blow might've happened close to where she was strangled. I have always thought it would be nice to know what kind of lint
    and dust was on JBR's feet. Was it concrete residue? Lint like from a washer and dryer room? Once she was hit on the head, there was no more standing. ST mentions this lint and dust, seen at the autopsy, so it must've been important to him and LE. I can't help but think they analyzed this and found out the probable room where JBR last stood. This is my opinion but he mentioned it for a reason.
    Kolar doesn't mention it. I believe someone ought to ask him about it sometime. Methinks that this is one tidbit not being let out.

    This probably doesn't help a bit but I'm going to keep working on a golf club injury theory and if I can reproduce an exact replica, then, it might help to give better answers to those 3 good questions.

    Does anyone know if any golf clubs were photographed or documented by LE to be upstairs any where? Or were they all located downstairs?

  4. #4
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    Canada
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    Koldkase:

    (1).
    Where did this head blow occur that night in the home?

    I think the head blow happened upstairs in the bathroom with JonBenét being thrown around in a rage by Patsy Ramsey.

    (2).
    What happened in the 90 minutes between that blow and the strangulation?

    The Ramseys staged the crime to look like an intruder had entered their home and sexually abused JonBenét, to cover up the previous sexual abuse.

    (3). How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray where she was strangled and expired?

    The Ramseys had to make it look like the intruder didn't want to waken up JoBenét's parents by taking JonBenét into a more secluded spot in the house.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  5. #5

    Post

    KK,

    I quickly read my book, now I need to go back and read it again slowly. But, I just don't know which parent choked the life out of her. Kolar, if I am not mistaken, seems to think that JR got in on the cover-up later on than Patsy. How much later, who knows? My feeling is that JR was the one who choked the life out of JB, so therefore, we have a case that can be prosecuted.

    Since reading the book, a lot of things have fallen into place for me. Like why the R's lawyered up so soon. Even though I think the fix was in before the 9-11 call was even made. All of this to protect Burke.

    Since image was everything to Patsy, she couldn't have her son be accused of murdering his sister. Can't you just imagine what the neighbors would say? OMG!

    The above is just my opinion, right or wrong, but please leave it at FFJ.

  6. #6

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    Since image was everything to Patsy, she couldn't have her son be accused of murdering his sister. Can't you just imagine what the neighbors would say? OMG!
    Not just image. Much of what Patsy did in her life was prompted by her cancer. After having been diagnosed with Stage 3C or IV ovarian cancer, she knew her chance of being alive in 5 years was less than 20%. Patsy lived a long time for someone with this disease. I have always believed that, whichever one of them killed JB, Patsy said, "Listen carefully! I am not going to spend the rest of my short life in jail, or with Burke in jail, so let's get this under control." Jail would have precluded visits to the National Cancer Institute upon recurrence.

    Kolar's book really changed the way I think about the timeframe for the murder and cover up. I never knew before that poor JB took 90 minutes to die, and I was never sure that her previous abuse had been actual penetration (and torture). I also have never been a BDI but it's creeping up on me.

    On KoldKase's questions:

    Where did this head blow occur that night in the home?

    Upstairs, in either her bedroom or Burke's bedroom. She had Christmas garland in her hair from the railing on the circular stair, that I think got there when John or Patsy carried her down the stairs.

    What happened in the 90 minutes between that blow and the strangulation?

    See above - Patsy said "I ain't going to prison, fix this." After the Kolar book, I now think there might have been a worst-nightmare moment where they realized the head blow did not actually kill her yet, and they had to finish her off to complete a staging effort that was already well under way.

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray where she was strangled and expired?

    I know Kolar says she died in the basement, also a new idea to me that I'm digesting. I think this can mean that they already had the kidnapping story set up, and had brough her downstairs to hide, when they realized she hadn't yet died and then strangled her.

    James Kolar did a great thing with this book. I wish he could have shared the grand jury info he knows. He redacted it from his letter to Mary Lacey. It's tantalizing.

  7. #7
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    Cool

    The entire coverup was because of their "image" I believe. Like OMG what will the neighbors think? And John's business partners etc.

    WHERE DID THE HEAD BLOW OCCUR IN THE HOUSE?

    I'm not really sure but...I wonder if it occurred downstairs in or near the train room. Patsy was already downstairs wrapping presents and JonBenet came down see what she was doing or to play with Burke who was down there also. Patsy became aggravated because the children weren't in bed as they should have been. A temper tantrum followed by both Mom and Child and the blow was struck by the flashlight. The flashlight was used to get downstairs because the rest of the house was dark.


    WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 90 MINUTES BETWEEN THE HEAD BLOW AND THE STRANGULATION?

    I can imagine utter horror and panic happened for most of that time thinking that JonBenet was already dead and what to do when she took her dying breaths which panicked them even further when they now realized that she wasn't dead. This is when John came into the picture for the rest of the coverup but only after he made a zillion phone calls for help.


    HOW DID JONBENET END UP BY THE PAINT TRAY WHERE SHE WAS STRANGLED AND EXPIRED?

    She was probably near that area anyway where she fell from the blow to her head. After getting some phone help John completed the awful deed and then "hid" her in that seldom used room. She hadn't been moved very much after the head blow.


    Well that doesn't fit all the things that we now know. After reading Kolar's book I do think that Burke is somehow involved in this most awful crime. By saying that it does make a lot of sense why the parents needed to cover up JonBenet's murder. But I can't figure out how to put him into KoldKase's questions easily.
    "When are we going to get our heads out of the sand and understand that sometimes really nice people who look good on the outside are dastardly on the inside." Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, MA

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    So the first question is this: What happened in that 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation?

    The second question is this: How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray/carpet area by the wine cellar?

    Finally, the answer to question three might tell the tale: Where did the head blow actually occur in the home?


    I'd like to see what you think of these questions, what you speculate and theorize for the answers, and see where that takes us.
    What happened in the 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation? Probably phone calls were made.

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray? Not sure. Except for the garland in her hair (which might have been in there for days, we have no idea), it's likely that she was already in the basement when the blow struck.

    Where did the head blow actually occur in the home?: I am leaning toward it happening in the basement, maybe in the "train room," maybe pretty close to where she died.

    I think if we could answer these questions definitively, we'd understand what really happened.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    What happened in the 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation? Probably phone calls were made.

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray? Not sure. Except for the garland in her hair (which might have been in there for days, we have no idea), it's likely that she was already in the basement when the blow struck.

    Where did the head blow actually occur in the home?: I am leaning toward it happening in the basement, maybe in the "train room," maybe pretty close to where she died.

    I think if we could answer these questions definitively, we'd understand what really happened.
    Do we know how much garland was in her hair? Is there a picture of it?

  10. #10

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    Thank you all so much for your responses. See, this helps me think, I can't tell you how much. Each of you has given me ideas, and thinking about what you're pondering, little pieces of this puzzle start moving around and some fall into place, as well.

    What prompted me to start this thread is I had an epiphany of sorts...or another stupid idea, who knows?

    I'm looking at the three questions to answer one final, and critical one:

    Could Burke have placed JB by the paint tray, where she was strangled, and where she died?

    My epiphany is this: there is only one way Burke could have strangled JB by the paint tray, and that's if he felled her right there, in that spot.

    I say that because I don't believe Burke could have carried JB. At 45 lbs. at autopsy, Burke would have had some trouble even moving her from, say, the train room to the paint tray.

    There were no bruises or scrapes on her body, as far as I've ever seen or as described in the autopsy, which indicated she'd been dragged. So I'm thinking that Burke, at his own height and weight, wouldn't have been able to pick her up and carry her.

    I know this isn't anything hard to figure out, but stay with me.

    I'll respond to your posts and ideas separately, but in hopes of keeping this idea from getting too complex off the bat, here's the gist of my thoughts:

    The only way I can figure out Burke delivering the head blow and also strangling his sister by the paint tray is if he felled her there. Then she would have been in position for what happened at the paint tray, so he didn't need to carry her.

    This might fit the evidence. I'm thinking this through.

    One problem I have with this is the 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation.

    Would Burke, not yet 10 years old, wait around the house/basement for 90 minutes while his sister was dying, and decide then to strangle her?

    Does that make sense?

    So I'm asking Question 1: where did the head blow occur? If it occurred in the basement, outside the cellar room, then Burke could have also been the person to strangle her, as far as physical capability.

    But if it happened somewhere else, like in/near her bedroom, where her blood was found on her pillow, where there is a lot of chaos, open drawers, diapers hanging out of a cabinet, a kitchen knife on a laundry machine, then I think we can all agree Burke did not carry JB down two flights of stairs and strangle her 90 minutes later.

    That would put Patsy and/or John in the act of strangulation, as the only other two people in the home and with their fibers on the body and murder weapon.

    If the head blow happened in the kitchen or another area, same thing. Burke could not carry his sister, I don't believe. So back to Patsy and/or John being the actual killers.

    So question 2: what happened in that 90 minutes? I'm trying to picture Burke hanging out, maybe panicking, maybe not, somewhere in the house, his sister dying by the paint tray where he struck her, then an hour and a half later deciding to go strangle her with a ligature.

    It was very late for children. They'd been up since before dawn, as well, excitedly opening their presents, playing with their Santa toys, running around with friends in the hood and such, visiting at the Whites, more children, more toys...then they came home and, according to Patsy and John Burke wasn't put to bed until 10 pm.

    But the pineapple is that big bugaboo, isn't it? It puts the lie to JB being asleep as she was put to bed, Patsy changing out her jeans for longjohns, etc.

    So there's only two ways this could have happened, if there is any truth to what John and Patsy said:

    1. JB woke up and Burke got back up, after the parents went to bed.

    OR Patsy and John lied and...

    2. JB was awake or woke up when they got back home and whatever happened, it went down before anyone went to bed.

    If either of the above scenarios happened, and if Burke were the one who struck that blow, unless it happened in the basement, by the paint tray, and Burke roamed around or did whatever until 90 minutes later, when he strangled JB to death there, there is only one other conclusion I can reach:

    John and/or Patsy carried JB to the paint tray and strangled her there.

    So this leads to Question 3: How did JB get to the paint tray?

    This is important because as I'm looking at this, with the timing between the head blow and strangulation established by Dr. Meyer as 90 minutes, and because I am speculating that a child the size of Burke could not carry the dead weight of a limp, 45 lb. body and there were no drag marks on the body, we might reasonably conclude the head blow occurred by the paint tray if Burke was responsible for that and then he would have been in a position to complete the act of strangulation...or...

    Patsy and/or John are culpable for the strangulation. Any other scenario except Burke committing the head blow and strangulation by the paint tray implicates John and/or Patsy, whose fibers are all over the body and crime scene, with Patsy's actually tied INTO the ligature, as well.

    I'm struggling with how to express my thoughts on this, so I hope this makes sense. If it does, we're down to one scenario where Burke could have committed both violent attacks on his sister. If it doesn't, then look into this smilie and repeat 100 times: I never read it...I never read it....



    Thoughts? I hope?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Where did this head blow occur that night in the home?

    I think it depends on what caused the head wound. If it was a golf club, the head wound probably occurred on the first floor or the basement. If a toilet rim, faucet, etc., upstairs. Flashlight? Probably first floor or basement.
    I'm going to concentrate on what caused the head injury. As someone stated, the depression looks oval shaped. I used to think it was rectangular.

    What happened in the 90 minutes between that blow and the strangulation?

    Depends on who struck, or caused, the blow. If PR caused head wound, then, there would have been a period of time trying to revive JBR....grieving...planning and then executing the plan. If BR caused head wound, and no one witnessed it, then, JBR could have laid unconscious for a period of time before being discovered...maybe when PR went to look for her in order to put her to bed.

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray where she was strangled and expired?

    If PR caused the head wound, she was carried there. If BR, then, the blow might've happened close to where she was strangled. I have always thought it would be nice to know what kind of lint
    and dust was on JBR's feet. Was it concrete residue? Lint like from a washer and dryer room? Once she was hit on the head, there was no more standing. ST mentions this lint and dust, seen at the autopsy, so it must've been important to him and LE. I can't help but think they analyzed this and found out the probable room where JBR last stood. This is my opinion but he mentioned it for a reason.
    Kolar doesn't mention it. I believe someone ought to ask him about it sometime. Methinks that this is one tidbit not being let out.

    This probably doesn't help a bit but I'm going to keep working on a golf club injury theory and if I can reproduce an exact replica, then, it might help to give better answers to those 3 good questions.

    Does anyone know if any golf clubs were photographed or documented by LE to be upstairs any where? Or were they all located downstairs?
    I see you're thinking much like I am. I'm also thinking about the opened Christmas presents in the cellar room, with Burke's Lego birthday present. Kolar included that photo, which we hadn't seen before. But Patsy was asked about it and said she opened those packages herself, having forgotten what was in them as they were wrapped and sent by Schwarz to the home. Was she lying about opening them to cover for Burke? Kolar asks that question, as well.

    I am not aware of any golf clubs being upstairs. That doesn't mean they weren't.

    Looking at the idea that the head blow occurred near the paint tray, there certainly were golf clubs in the crime scene photos there. Also, there were golf clubs in the closet in the train room. I'm thinking there was a third set we've seen, in another basement storage room, the one behind the laundry room?

    I once read an article about a forensic scientist who has a lab where the dust from the JB crime was sent to him to anaylze. There was no information on what he found, though. But LE clearly had this tested.

    I look forward to seeing your experiment results with golf clubs. We can only hope LE did experiments and came to some important conclusions, as well. Unfortunately, we have never seen any of those mentioned.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Koldkase:

    (1).
    Where did this head blow occur that night in the home?

    I think the head blow happened upstairs in the bathroom with JonBenét being thrown around in a rage by Patsy Ramsey.

    (2).
    What happened in the 90 minutes between that blow and the strangulation?

    The Ramseys staged the crime to look like an intruder had entered their home and sexually abused JonBenét, to cover up the previous sexual abuse.

    (3). How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray where she was strangled and expired?

    The Ramseys had to make it look like the intruder didn't want to waken up JoBenét's parents by taking JonBenét into a more secluded spot in the house.
    The unfortunate thing about our theories, Elle, is that we've not found a way to determine exactly how or where the head blow was delivered.

    I want to know if the blood on the pillowcase on JB's bed was in fact tested and matched to JB's DNA. Also, did it come from her nose--Patsy was asked by LE if JB had nosebleeds when Haney told Patsy there was blood on the pillowcase. Patsy also mentioned, in that exchange, that there didn't appear to be any blood on the curtains--a very strange observation in that context, IMO.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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