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  1. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I don't believe Jonbenet ever laid in that bed on Christmas night. The crime scene photo shows the pillow at the end of the bed and her pj top at the head of the bed and above all else Kolar says the CSI's say the sheets reeked of urine. I don't believe Patsy would put her to bed in a bed with sheets reeking of urine and since I believe JB was awake, eating pineapple and getting herself undressed and dressed for bed I don't believe JB would agree to climb in to a bed with sheets reeking of urine.
    IF Jonbenet slept in Burkes room the night before, Christmas Eve, then that bed in her room was in that state from the night of the 23rd, the last known time she slept in it.
    What lends credence to this is the pj's that Jonbenet is photographed in on Christmas morning. If Patsy is lying and Jonbenet slept in her own room Christmas Eve, then she apparently wet her bed Christmas Eve. However, she is wearing pajamas Christmas morning in the photos. If she had wet her bed she would have wet her pajamas and when arising Christmas morning I doubt she would change out of wet pajamas and into clean pajamas. I think she would change out of wet pajamas and in to clothes.
    So since Jonbenet is wearing pajamas Christmas morning it stands to reason she did not wet the bed Christmas Eve. Whether she slept in her own room or Burkes she did not wet the bed.
    Since Chief Kolar says her bed reeked of urine I'm going to assume they were dry. In my experience with a bedwetting child years ago, when the bed was wet it did not smell as bad as it would when the sheets weren't changed until the following morning and it had dried or partially dried.
    This brings me to the night of the 23rd. The last night she slept in her bed, according to Patsy. If Patsy is being truthful in this instance that is the last opportunity Jonbenet would have had to wet her bed. So that means those wet sheets stayed on her bed, dried and were discovered by the CSI's on the third day they were on her bed, the 26th.
    Add to this the statement LHP made that those were not the sheets she last put on the bed. I assume she changed the sheets on the 23rd when she was there?
    So now we have this. Either LHP is mistaken about which sheets she put on the bed, or Patsy changed the sheets at some point on the 24th. If she slept in her bed on the 24th she wet it. That doesn't show in the Christmas morning photos UNLESS Jonbenet either continued to wear wet/dried pj's Christmas morning, or she changed from a wet set of pj's into a different set of pj's on Christmas morning. Also the other bed in Jonbenets room is undisturbed so if she had gotten up in the night of the 24th because she wet the bed and changed into clean pj's would she have crawled right back into her bed with the wet sheets? From the looks of the photo if she had changed her pj's during the night she would have either gone to Burkes room to sleep in his other twin bed as she had been known to do previously, or she would have crawled into her other twin bed in her own room.
    All in all, what I believe is this. LHP is mistaken about which sheets she put on Jonbenets bed the 23rd. Jonbenet wet her bed the night of the 23rd and it stayed that way, dried, until the CSI's found it on the 26th.
    The feces in the larger pj's had to have happened either on the night of the 23rd, the night JB wet the bed, or on the 24th or 25th. I say that because LHP was in there changing sheets the 23rd and I have no doubt she would have picked up those nasty pj's and taken them out of the room. So I don't think they were there the 23rd.
    LHP MUST be mistaken about which sheets she put on the bed. That's the only thing that makes sense given the photos and timeline.

    There is no way to know that the last night JB wet her bed was the 23rd. LHP put what she said was different sheets on the MORNING of the 23rd. JB could have wet them that night- and LHP was not there on the 24th to change them, so Patsy would have done it- leaving the blanket in the basement dryer where it was the only place it was laundered. JB could have wet the bed Christmas Eve- then gone into BR's room. She could have had OTHER nighties or PJs on that night, and put the clean, dry pink PJs on Christmas morning rather than clothes, especially as they were going to a party later. Remember we have only Patsy's word that her daughter did not sleep in her bed on the 24th. The sheets on her bed in the photo are Beauty & the Beast sheets. I am sure she had several little girls' character sheets (Disney princess, Barbie, etc) and though LHP could have been mistaken, I do not think she was. I think it wold have stuck in her mind which sheets she last put on the bed.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  2. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    That is an interesting thought, about using the train tracks to poke her to "wake" her. Remember she had very similar marks on her leg in a summer photo taken of her earlier that year. The marks look the exact same to me. (You can see those in our case library if you missed some of those discussions.)
    BBM

    I meant to reply to this post earlier but got sidetracked.

    KK, you know I luvs ya .... but I've never thought those marks on JonBenet's legs in that photo look the same as the marks on her back at autopsy.

    They actually look like bug bites that have been scratched or something. We used to get those kinds of little marks on our legs from playing outside. It's obvious the photo was taken in summer-like weather since JonBenet is barefoot. She may have even gotten it somewhere in the Ramsey boat, climbing all over it or climbing in and out.

    From what I can see in the photo, there is a bit of a scratch mark going up from the lower red mark toward the upper one. In addition, the red marks are not nearly as round as the postmortem marks on JonBenet but have different shapes. In fact, the upper mark is sort of a combination of two indeterminate shapes, and there is a third very tiny mark just to the left and down from the larger mark (as you're looking at photo).

    JMHO, of course.

  3. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    There is no way to know that the last night JB wet her bed was the 23rd. LHP put what she said was different sheets on the MORNING of the 23rd. JB could have wet them that night- and LHP was not there on the 24th to change them, so Patsy would have done it- leaving the blanket in the basement dryer where it was the only place it was laundered. JB could have wet the bed Christmas Eve- then gone into BR's room. She could have had OTHER nighties or PJs on that night, and put the clean, dry pink PJs on Christmas morning rather than clothes, especially as they were going to a party later. Remember we have only Patsy's word that her daughter did not sleep in her bed on the 24th. The sheets on her bed in the photo are Beauty & the Beast sheets. I am sure she had several little girls' character sheets (Disney princess, Barbie, etc) and though LHP could have been mistaken, I do not think she was. I think it wold have stuck in her mind which sheets she last put on the bed.
    I agree, DeeDee. Since LHP wasn't at the Ramsey home on the morning of the 24th, Patsy would have been the one to change the sheets on JonBenet's bed.

    As KK (and others, including myself) keep saying, we have learned that Patsy and John lied a lot, and if they want you to ignore what really happened, they'll point you in another direction.

    So maybe, the reason Patsy said JonBenet didn't sleep in her bed on the 24th was because ... JonBenet DID sleep in her bed on the 24th!

    That would explain why the sheets would still smell like urine on the morning of the 26th. Patsy probably didn't have time to change JonBenet's sheets on Christmas morning, the 25th, with the opening of presents, etc. They day was full on, so Patsy may not have taken the time to change the sheets later. In fact, that could have been a reason for JonBenet to sleep in the extra bed in Burke's room on Christmas night. (Just speculating here.)

    Maybe the reason the covers are down is because the sheets were wet when JonBenet climbed out of them. The blanket could have been in the downstairs dryer from the night before. JonBenet could have slept without the blanket on the 24th. Someone said JonBenet slept hot, and she obviously ran around the house in the middle of winter with no socks and shoes on, so she didn't get cold easily.

    I've never assumed the blanket was on the bed and then the bed was partially remade after it was taken off to wrap JonBenet. I don't think that blanket had been on the bed for at least two nights (the 24th and 25th).

  4. #112

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    And as I said before, human nature will make us cherry pick what to believe of Patsys statements and what not to. The only thing we know for sure are her lies that the autopsy report and fiber evidence proves are lies. Everything else is cherry picking what you want to believe.

    I do not believe Jonbenet wet her pjs and put more pjs on Christmas morning.

    I do not believe Jonbenet was ever in her bed on Christmas night, the 25th. I really don't think she made it that far.

    If she slept in her bed on Christmas Eve and wet it she could have gotten up and changed her pjs and gone into Burkes room to sleep. I believe that's what I said. So why then would Patsy lie about where Jonbenet started out sleeping on Christmas Eve? What's the point of that? If Patsy lied about something a trivial as that you have to wonder why and is it really trivial?

    BTW, I question a LOT of what LHP says. She would have zero reason to remember what sheets she put on JB's bed that day. It was just another day of housekeeping for her. I believe she wanted to be a "somebody" and sell a book with all her inside information. Simply stated, I think she pretended to know much more than she really did.

  5. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    And as I said before, human nature will make us cherry pick what to believe of Patsys statements and what not to. The only thing we know for sure are her lies that the autopsy report and fiber evidence proves are lies. Everything else is cherry picking what you want to believe.
    I don't know if you're talking to me or to DeeDee, but at this point, I don't believe ANYTHING Patsy said, so I'm definitely not cherry picking.

    I do not believe Jonbenet wet her pjs and put more pjs on Christmas morning.
    Why? If JonBenet wet her bed in the middle of the night, she might have been changed then, put on different jammies, then went to sleep in Burke's room before getting up for Christmas morning? I don't believe JonBenet always slept through her bed-wetting and only woke up when everyone else did. A friend of mine had a kid who used to get her up in the middle of the night when their wet bed woke them up.

    I do not believe Jonbenet was ever in her bed on Christmas night, the 25th. I really don't think she made it that far.
    I don't either.

    If she slept in her bed on Christmas Eve and wet it she could have gotten up and changed her pjs and gone into Burkes room to sleep. I believe that's what I said. So why then would Patsy lie about where Jonbenet started out sleeping on Christmas Eve? What's the point of that? If Patsy lied about something a trivial as that you have to wonder why and is it really trivial?
    Patsy lied about it a lot of trivial things ... like not knowing the last time JonBenet had a bath, or that she didn't recognize her own kitchen bowl and spoon that Burke readily admitted was theirs! The point is, Patsy was trying to throw a smoke screen over what really happened in that house. Patsy tells one version, John tells another, and the truth is never really known.

    BTW, I question a LOT of what LHP says. She would have zero reason to remember what sheets she put on JB's bed that day. It was just another day of housekeeping for her. I believe she wanted to be a "somebody" and sell a book with all her inside information. Simply stated, I think she pretended to know much more than she really did.
    IMHO, I think Linda Hoffman-Pugh would have remembered the last sheets she put on JonBenet's bed because it was the last day she was there. If it had been a day in a series of days BEFORE her last day, then I can see her forgetting, but sheets with big Disney imprints are a lot easier to remember than just plain colored sheets.

    I don't know why you are casting aspersions on LHP, but that poor woman was put through hell by John and Patsy Ramsey. If it had been left up to them, they'd have loved to have pinned JonBenet's death on her, and then let a jury sort it out. LHP was one of the first persons the Ramseys threw under their big SAVE OURSELVES bus.

    Please don't hold what Darnay Hoffman, and his wife, Sydney Biddle Barrows, did against LHP. Linda gave them some information about the Ramseys, but Sydney and Darnay wrote that trashy "Chapter One" of the alleged book by LHP, not Linda. Because Darnay, ever the showman child of vaudeville parents, tarted up the narrative, it read like a sleazy dime novel. The reaction to "Chapter One" was so bad, Darnay dropped the book project. That wasn't LHP's fault.

    I'm not saying LHP is a saint, but if she wanted to sell information, she could have done that many times through the tabs. The book was Darnay's idea. LHP has stayed quiet and had to move to a place where she can't be found because of what the Ramseys did to her, her reputation and her family. That doesn't sound to me like a person who pretended to know things in order to be "somebody." If that were true, LHP would have kept trying to thrust herself into the limelight. She's never done that.
    Last edited by Cherokee; August 20, 2012, 1:09 am at Mon Aug 20 1:09:47 UTC 2012.

  6. #114

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    I'm going to address one of the three questions koldkase kicked this thread off with. Where did the headblow actually occur in the home?

    I don't have the exact room but I believe we can narrow it down. I believe JBR was standing in a room without carpet when the head blow was delivered.
    I see in the Christmas morning picture that the living area and solarium did not
    have carpeting but had some throw rugs. I know the kitchen didn't have carpeting. I'm not sure about the dining room where the pineapple was located. And, I'm assuming that the bathrooms were probably without carpeting.

  7. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    I don't know if you're talking to me or to DeeDee, but at this point, I don't believe ANYTHING Patsy said, so I'm definitely not cherry picking.



    Why? If JonBenet wet her bed in the middle of the night, she might have been changed then, put on different jammies, then went to sleep in Burke's room before getting up for Christmas morning? I don't believe JonBenet always slept through her bed-wetting and only woke up when everyone else did. A friend of mine had a kid who used to get her up in the middle of the night when their wet bed woke them up.



    I don't either.



    Patsy lied about it a lot of trivial things ... like not knowing the last time JonBenet had a bath, or that she didn't recognize her own kitchen bowl and spoon that Burke readily admitted was theirs! The point is, Patsy was trying to throw a smoke screen over what really happened in that house. Patsy tells one version, John tells another, and the truth is never really known.



    IMHO, I think Linda Hoffman-Pugh would have remembered the last sheets she put on JonBenet's bed because it was the last day she was there. If it had been a day in a series of days BEFORE her last day, then I can see her forgetting, but sheets with big Disney imprints are a lot easier to remember than just plain colored sheets.

    I don't know why you are casting aspersions on LHP, but that poor woman was put through hell by John and Patsy Ramsey. If it had been left up to them, they'd have loved to have pinned JonBenet's death on her, and then let a jury sort it out. LHP was one of the first person the Ramseys threw under their big SAVE OURSELVES bus.

    Please don't hold what Darnay Hoffman, and his wife, Sydney Biddle Barrows, did against LHP. Linda gave them some information about the Ramseys, but Sydney and Darnay wrote that trashy "Chapter One" of the alleged book by LHP, not Linda. Because Darnay, ever the showman child of vaudeville parents, tarted up the narrative, it read like a sleazy dime novel. The reaction to "Chapter One" was so bad, Darnay dropped the book project. That wasn't LHP's fault.

    I'm not saying LHP is a saint, but if she wanted to sell information, she could have done that many times through the tabs. The book was Darnay's idea. LHP has stayed quiet and had to move to a place where she can't be found because of what the Ramseys did to her, her reputation and her family. That doesn't sound to me like a person who pretended to know things in order to be "somebody." If that were true, LHP would have kept trying to thrust herself into the limelight. She's never done that.
    Thank you Cherokee. I didn't know that about Darnay and his wife and LHP's book. I thought it was all her own.
    I still suspect Jonbenet slept in Burkes room Christmas Eve. That means to me the wet sheets were there from the 23rd and Jonbenet was wearing the pjs she went to bed with that night. It just all falls into place for me..
    I wonder if LHP noticed the feces smeared box of candy in Jonbenets room when she was there on the 23rd? Arianna and Jonbenet spent a lot of time playing in Jonbenets room that day. I don't think it was there that day. That means it was done on the 24th or 25th.
    The only thing I can find LHP ever said about Burke was that he was really quiet. She supposedly knew so much about the family and she said repeatedly Patsy killed Jonbenet. IMO she was wrong about that. What else was she wrong about?
    I have nothing against her personally. I just think someone who sells their story to tabloids loses credibility and it's hard for me to believe much else she says. I read somewhere she divorced Mervin. I don't know if it's true or not or even where I read it.

  8. #116

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    Well, this thread and its sister thread at WS have finally convinced me: everyone sees everything differently.

    And whatever anyone already believes about this case and what happened, they're pretty much going to still believe no matter what comes out about it.

    I may actually be more confused now than I was before.

    What an amazing waste of 12 years.

    Carry on.

    And good luck.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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    3 Dimensional

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  9. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Well, this thread and its sister thread at WS have finally convinced me: everyone sees everything differently.

    And whatever anyone already believes about this case and what happened, they're pretty much going to still believe no matter what comes out about it.

    I may actually be more confused now than I was before.

    What an amazing waste of 12 years.

    Carry on.

    And good luck.
    I hear ya, koldkase.

    At this point, I'm looking at what Kolar states as fact in his book. Beyond that, I'll take some of the viewpoints that at least have a basis of science behind them. For instance, I'm really swayed by Cynic's demonstration of what a golf club hit looks like in an experimental situation, against the autopsy photo of JonBenet's skull. That looks like a good enough match for me to change my position from the maglite being the weapon to a greater probability that it was a golf club.

    There's so much conjecturing going on and some of it I really don't understand. For instance, Karen, you say that the housekeeper didn't remember correctly about what sheets she put on JonBenet's bed and you state that as a certainty in your mind. I can't go there with you. As another poster pointed out, the Disney sheets would be easier to remember than, say the light blue set versus the white set. Furthermore, we have no idea what happened around the changing of the sheets because we weren't there. Maybe Pugh remembers so specifically because JonBenet threw a fit to have those sheets put on her bed. Yes, I know - I'm now "making stuff up" - but why isn't my projection of what might've happened just as valid as any other? If Pugh says those are the sheets she put on the bed, I'm inclined to believe her.

    We know that John and Patsy lied. A whole lot. So nothing they said can be trusted. You can't even use the simple "if they said it was A, then it must be B" formula because maybe they lied 90 percent of the time...or 99...or 80. Whatever the percentage, we have no way of discerning which are the lies and which are actual truths that somehow managed to escape before they caught themselves.

    From Day One I've always been simultaneously struck by how brilliant people on this forum can be at cracking through some of the evidence trial and, at the same time, how futile some of the "what if this" blind conjecturing really is. There can be value to putting out those speculations...but, in the end, none of them can be proved or disproved, based on the information we have.

    Oh to be a grand juror...or a confidante of one of the true insiders on this case!

  10. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pearlsim View Post
    We know that John and Patsy lied. A whole lot. So nothing they said can be trusted. You can't even use the simple "if they said it was A, then it must be B" formula because maybe they lied 90 percent of the time...or 99...or 80. Whatever the percentage, we have no way of discerning which are the lies and which are actual truths that somehow managed to escape before they caught themselves.
    Isn't that the truth!

    We have no way of knowing how much the Ramseys lied or everything they lied about. John and Patsy did lie a lot, but sometimes they may have told the truth just enough to confuse the issue.

  11. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pearlsim View Post
    I used pull-ups for my two youngest children when they were small. My son is a year younger than JonBenet so we're talking the same general time frame regarding how the pull-ups were made. That said, I can categorically state that those pull-ups would not have been able to be flushed down a toilet without stopping it up.
    I meant to post this earlier, but I totally agree.

    From experience with children who used pull-ups in the early to mid 90s, none of those pull-ups could have been flushed down a toilet without stopping it up, even if the pull-up was torn apart.

  12. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pearlsim View Post
    I hear ya, koldkase.

    At this point, I'm looking at what Kolar states as fact in his book. Beyond that, I'll take some of the viewpoints that at least have a basis of science behind them. For instance, I'm really swayed by Cynic's demonstration of what a golf club hit looks like in an experimental situation, against the autopsy photo of JonBenet's skull. That looks like a good enough match for me to change my position from the maglite being the weapon to a greater probability that it was a golf club.

    There's so much conjecturing going on and some of it I really don't understand. For instance, Karen, you say that the housekeeper didn't remember correctly about what sheets she put on JonBenet's bed and you state that as a certainty in your mind. I can't go there with you. As another poster pointed out, the Disney sheets would be easier to remember than, say the light blue set versus the white set. Furthermore, we have no idea what happened around the changing of the sheets because we weren't there. Maybe Pugh remembers so specifically because JonBenet threw a fit to have those sheets put on her bed. Yes, I know - I'm now "making stuff up" - but why isn't my projection of what might've happened just as valid as any other? If Pugh says those are the sheets she put on the bed, I'm inclined to believe her.

    We know that John and Patsy lied. A whole lot. So nothing they said can be trusted. You can't even use the simple "if they said it was A, then it must be B" formula because maybe they lied 90 percent of the time...or 99...or 80. Whatever the percentage, we have no way of discerning which are the lies and which are actual truths that somehow managed to escape before they caught themselves.

    From Day One I've always been simultaneously struck by how brilliant people on this forum can be at cracking through some of the evidence trial and, at the same time, how futile some of the "what if this" blind conjecturing really is. There can be value to putting out those speculations...but, in the end, none of them can be proved or disproved, based on the information we have.

    Oh to be a grand juror...or a confidante of one of the true insiders on this case!
    Hi Pearlsim, Thank you for answering my long post. I think I must have a problem with written communication since it seems like you took something from it that I didn't mean. (I could never write a ransom note!)
    I didn't mean to imply that LHP is totally and completely wrong about which sheets she put on. What I meant was she could be wrong and I don't understand why nobody will even take a minute to consider it. She's a person. She not infallible. She can and has made mistakes just like the rest of us.. It's possible she is wrong. That's all. If everybody else is going to take whatever she says as gospel instead of even considering the possibility she might be mistaken then there's no more discussion to be had unless I want to talk to myself. (I do that a lot about this case anyway.)
    It also seems to be that everyone thinks Jonbenet went to bed in her own bed on Christmas Eve, wet the bed, got up and put clean pjs on and went in to sleep in Burkes room....
    OR Jonbenet went to bed in her own bed on Christmas Eve, wet the bed , got up in the morning for gift giving and put on clean pjs in the morning to go exchange gifts.
    I agree either one of these scenarios could be what happened. I think it's possible. I think it's also possible LHP is mistaken and those sheets had been there since the 23rd.
    BTW, those Disney sheets, the very memorable ones? are the ones LHP claims she did not put on her bed on the 23rd. She claims Patsy must have put those on.
    I'd love to ask her which ones she remembers putting on. I'd love to know if there were twin sheets in the laundry room or washer/dryer (either one).
    That one statement by LHP is what a lot of theorys are hanging on. I wonder if she realizes how vitally important her words have been?
    I also wonder why LHP is on such a pedestal.



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