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  1. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tez View Post
    KK,

    I quickly read my book, now I need to go back and read it again slowly. But, I just don't know which parent choked the life out of her. Kolar, if I am not mistaken, seems to think that JR got in on the cover-up later on than Patsy. How much later, who knows? My feeling is that JR was the one who choked the life out of JB, so therefore, we have a case that can be prosecuted.

    Since reading the book, a lot of things have fallen into place for me. Like why the R's lawyered up so soon. Even though I think the fix was in before the 9-11 call was even made. All of this to protect Burke.

    Since image was everything to Patsy, she couldn't have her son be accused of murdering his sister. Can't you just imagine what the neighbors would say? OMG!
    Interesting observations, Tez.

    This is at the heart of what I'm trying to figure out: if the adult Ramseys devised the ligature, or if Burke did. Because yes, with JR still alive, it would be prosecutable if he participated at any point in the events of that night, even if he weren't the one who put the ligature on JB and pulled it, but did help cover up that Patsy did that.

    But I have always felt the ligature was something a male would come up with. I could be wrong, of course. It is Patsy's fibers tied into the knots, after all.

    What wombat posted next is interesting on this subject of Patsy's motivation, as well.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  2. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    Not just image. Much of what Patsy did in her life was prompted by her cancer. After having been diagnosed with Stage 3C or IV ovarian cancer, she knew her chance of being alive in 5 years was less than 20%. Patsy lived a long time for someone with this disease. I have always believed that, whichever one of them killed JB, Patsy said, "Listen carefully! I am not going to spend the rest of my short life in jail, or with Burke in jail, so let's get this under control." Jail would have precluded visits to the National Cancer Institute upon recurrence.

    Kolar's book really changed the way I think about the timeframe for the murder and cover up. I never knew before that poor JB took 90 minutes to die, and I was never sure that her previous abuse had been actual penetration (and torture). I also have never been a BDI but it's creeping up on me.

    On KoldKase's questions:

    Where did this head blow occur that night in the home?

    Upstairs, in either her bedroom or Burke's bedroom. She had Christmas garland in her hair from the railing on the circular stair, that I think got there when John or Patsy carried her down the stairs.

    What happened in the 90 minutes between that blow and the strangulation?

    See above - Patsy said "I ain't going to prison, fix this." After the Kolar book, I now think there might have been a worst-nightmare moment where they realized the head blow did not actually kill her yet, and they had to finish her off to complete a staging effort that was already well under way.

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray where she was strangled and expired?

    I know Kolar says she died in the basement, also a new idea to me that I'm digesting. I think this can mean that they already had the kidnapping story set up, and had brough her downstairs to hide, when they realized she hadn't yet died and then strangled her.

    James Kolar did a great thing with this book. I wish he could have shared the grand jury info he knows. He redacted it from his letter to Mary Lacey. It's tantalizing.
    Your thoughts about Patsy's point of view, regarding her life expectancy, are very interesting. You remind me of what Patsy said to her friend who was caring for her that week, with Patsy drugged out of her mind: "We didn't mean for this to happen."

    I think you're on to something here, as to Patsy's motivation.

    I agree, Kolar's book has opened up so much in terms of evidence and dynamics in the home.

    Yes, the grand jury: I have no doubt now that there are people who know with some clarity what happened in the home that night and who killed JonBenet.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  3. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by zoomama View Post
    The entire coverup was because of their "image" I believe. Like OMG what will the neighbors think? And John's business partners etc.

    WHERE DID THE HEAD BLOW OCCUR IN THE HOUSE?

    I'm not really sure but...I wonder if it occurred downstairs in or near the train room. Patsy was already downstairs wrapping presents and JonBenet came down see what she was doing or to play with Burke who was down there also. Patsy became aggravated because the children weren't in bed as they should have been. A temper tantrum followed by both Mom and Child and the blow was struck by the flashlight. The flashlight was used to get downstairs because the rest of the house was dark.


    WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 90 MINUTES BETWEEN THE HEAD BLOW AND THE STRANGULATION?

    I can imagine utter horror and panic happened for most of that time thinking that JonBenet was already dead and what to do when she took her dying breaths which panicked them even further when they now realized that she wasn't dead. This is when John came into the picture for the rest of the coverup but only after he made a zillion phone calls for help.


    HOW DID JONBENET END UP BY THE PAINT TRAY WHERE SHE WAS STRANGLED AND EXPIRED?

    She was probably near that area anyway where she fell from the blow to her head. After getting some phone help John completed the awful deed and then "hid" her in that seldom used room. She hadn't been moved very much after the head blow.


    Well that doesn't fit all the things that we now know. After reading Kolar's book I do think that Burke is somehow involved in this most awful crime. By saying that it does make a lot of sense why the parents needed to cover up JonBenet's murder. But I can't figure out how to put him into KoldKase's questions easily.
    Very interesting. See, we're all focusing on the basement now. And like you, I'm still not convinced John wouldn't have been the one to come up with and execute the ligature strangulation. But I'm still on the fence with that, as my post explaining my questions indicates. I hope that post helps with ideas about how Burke could have been involved in a couple of possible scenarios.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  4. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    What happened in the 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation? Probably phone calls were made.

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray? Not sure. Except for the garland in her hair (which might have been in there for days, we have no idea), it's likely that she was already in the basement when the blow struck.

    Where did the head blow actually occur in the home?: I am leaning toward it happening in the basement, maybe in the "train room," maybe pretty close to where she died.

    I think if we could answer these questions definitively, we'd understand what really happened.
    Yes, I think these are key questions.

    If John and Patsy were making phone calls in that 90 minutes, then she was still alive and the head blow had already happened...to state the obvious.

    But that's important because that puts them with the ligature in their hands, doesn't it? Unless we can imagine they'd knowingly let Burke finish her off for some reason, and even I don't think they were that far gone.

    So once again, those phone records would be of PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE.

    Because that would make John and Patsy into killers, not just stagers.

    And John would still be open for prosecution.

    As if...because it's Boulder. But we can imagine justice is still possible, if highly improbably.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  5. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Do we know how much garland was in her hair? Is there a picture of it?
    I looked in the autopsy and crime scene photos we have in the case library, particularly under the Christmas tree, and I don't see any garland.

    But the garland could have gotten into her hair in the basement, even by the paint tray or in the cellar room, as others have mentioned. Also she was laid by the Christmas tree, with lots of Christmas decor and I'd think some kind of garland on it, as well. Then there's transfer--how many people went into the basement on Christmas Day and the next morning and afternoon, even when the body was found?

    So I'm not sure that garland is going to tell us decisively one way or another what happened?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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    3 Dimensional

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  6. #18

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    Again, thanks so much for your ideas. Any feedback you have on mine, I so appreciate. Always in this case, theories have weaknesses and that's how we learn, so I look forward to your thoughts.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
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    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
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  7. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Thank you all so much for your responses. See, this helps me think, I can't tell you how much. Each of you has given me ideas, and thinking about what you're pondering, little pieces of this puzzle start moving around and some fall into place, as well.

    What prompted me to start this thread is I had an epiphany of sorts...or another stupid idea, who knows?

    I'm looking at the three questions to answer one final, and critical one:

    Could Burke have placed JB by the paint tray, where she was strangled, and where she died?

    My epiphany is this: there is only one way Burke could have strangled JB by the paint tray, and that's if he felled her right there, in that spot.

    I say that because I don't believe Burke could have carried JB. At 45 lbs. at autopsy, Burke would have had some trouble even moving her from, say, the train room to the paint tray.

    There were no bruises or scrapes on her body, as far as I've ever seen or as described in the autopsy, which indicated she'd been dragged. So I'm thinking that Burke, at his own height and weight, wouldn't have been able to pick her up and carry her.

    I know this isn't anything hard to figure out, but stay with me.

    I'll respond to your posts and ideas separately, but in hopes of keeping this idea from getting too complex off the bat, here's the gist of my thoughts:

    The only way I can figure out Burke delivering the head blow and also strangling his sister by the paint tray is if he felled her there. Then she would have been in position for what happened at the paint tray, so he didn't need to carry her.

    This might fit the evidence. I'm thinking this through.

    One problem I have with this is the 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation.

    Would Burke, not yet 10 years old, wait around the house/basement for 90 minutes while his sister was dying, and decide then to strangle her?

    Does that make sense?

    So I'm asking Question 1: where did the head blow occur? If it occurred in the basement, outside the cellar room, then Burke could have also been the person to strangle her, as far as physical capability.

    But if it happened somewhere else, like in/near her bedroom, where her blood was found on her pillow, where there is a lot of chaos, open drawers, diapers hanging out of a cabinet, a kitchen knife on a laundry machine, then I think we can all agree Burke did not carry JB down two flights of stairs and strangle her 90 minutes later.

    That would put Patsy and/or John in the act of strangulation, as the only other two people in the home and with their fibers on the body and murder weapon.

    If the head blow happened in the kitchen or another area, same thing. Burke could not carry his sister, I don't believe. So back to Patsy and/or John being the actual killers.

    So question 2: what happened in that 90 minutes? I'm trying to picture Burke hanging out, maybe panicking, maybe not, somewhere in the house, his sister dying by the paint tray where he struck her, then an hour and a half later deciding to go strangle her with a ligature.

    It was very late for children. They'd been up since before dawn, as well, excitedly opening their presents, playing with their Santa toys, running around with friends in the hood and such, visiting at the Whites, more children, more toys...then they came home and, according to Patsy and John Burke wasn't put to bed until 10 pm.

    But the pineapple is that big bugaboo, isn't it? It puts the lie to JB being asleep as she was put to bed, Patsy changing out her jeans for longjohns, etc.

    So there's only two ways this could have happened, if there is any truth to what John and Patsy said:

    1. JB woke up and Burke got back up, after the parents went to bed.

    OR Patsy and John lied and...

    2. JB was awake or woke up when they got back home and whatever happened, it went down before anyone went to bed.

    If either of the above scenarios happened, and if Burke were the one who struck that blow, unless it happened in the basement, by the paint tray, and Burke roamed around or did whatever until 90 minutes later, when he strangled JB to death there, there is only one other conclusion I can reach:

    John and/or Patsy carried JB to the paint tray and strangled her there.

    So this leads to Question 3: How did JB get to the paint tray?

    This is important because as I'm looking at this, with the timing between the head blow and strangulation established by Dr. Meyer as 90 minutes, and because I am speculating that a child the size of Burke could not carry the dead weight of a limp, 45 lb. body and there were no drag marks on the body, we might reasonably conclude the head blow occurred by the paint tray if Burke was responsible for that and then he would have been in a position to complete the act of strangulation...or...

    Patsy and/or John are culpable for the strangulation. Any other scenario except Burke committing the head blow and strangulation by the paint tray implicates John and/or Patsy, whose fibers are all over the body and crime scene, with Patsy's actually tied INTO the ligature, as well.

    I'm struggling with how to express my thoughts on this, so I hope this makes sense. If it does, we're down to one scenario where Burke could have committed both violent attacks on his sister. If it doesn't, then look into this smilie and repeat 100 times: I never read it...I never read it....



    Thoughts? I hope?
    Since reading Kolar's book, and since getting a different perspective on that head wound, I've been wondering if BR could have struck the blow and tied the ligature right there in front of that wine cellar door. His DNA, evidently, wasn't on the ligature so that's a negative against this scenario. In this scenario, the blow could have been struck and he thought she would eventually awaken. He might have returned upstairs and when she never came up, he went back down and found her gurling or twitching and couldn't stand it so he tied the ligature...just thinking out loud.

    The real negative for me, in this scenario, is that I don't see BR implicating himself further. A head blow, with no bleeding, could almost be explained but, once the ligature is tightened, the plot thickens. But, he could have tied the ligature and went up to bed hoping the parents would blame it on an intruder.

  8. #20
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    Default Drag marks

    Remember, JonBenet was fully clothed, in a long-sleeved shirt and long johns, so if she was dragged, there would be no abrasions or carpet burns.

    Also, those marks that look like the end of the train track...How and when did those happen to her? If the end of a train track had been poked into her, she would have cried out, wouldn't she? Unless she were already unconscious, and the person who poked her was trying to find out if she would wake up....
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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  9. #21
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    Koldkase:

    Would Burke, not yet 10 years old, wait around the house/basement for 90 minutes while his sister was dying, and decide then to strangle her?

    Does that make sense?
    No! I don't think Burke Ramsey would have even known his sister was dying, KK. Burke Ramsey could have knocked out JonBenét with the flashlight during the pineapple session, and probably didn't know he may have killed his sister. He could have taken off upstairs, leaving Patsy to find her early morning, with her wakening up John and the staging began.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  10. #22
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    My oldest child had a hairline skull fracture when he was a toddler. He's now 30 years old but I can still bring back the horrible sound of his skull cracking. While though there was no blood evident from JonBenet's blow to the head, Burke would've had to hear that awful sound. Even as an almost ten year old, I think he would've known something was dreadfully wrong when he heard her skull crack open and watched her drop to the floor immediately.

    I'm honestly trying to imagine what he would've done. I doubt he would've grasped that he'd mortally wounded her but would the instinct to save his own hide have kicked on, or might he have run to mom or dad for help? I go back and forth between those two possibilities.

    I was a demure, obedient child but I once set a piece of paper on fire and then got so panicked I dropped the flaming paper in a wastebasket, left the room, closed the door and tried to slink off. (I was about 5 or 6 at the time.) Thank God my Uncle felt like something was up because he went into the bedroom and put out the fire I'd started. In my mind, I guess i thought if no one saw what I'd done, it would all go away? A part of me wonders if Burke didn't head his sister over the head and then "hide" from what he'd done by going upstairs to bed.

    The more likely scenario has Burke trying to rouse JonBenet from her fall and then panicking as he realized she couldn't/wouldn't get up. Patsy was either already close by and saw all this happening or Burke went to get her, putting the whole staging cycle in motion. I say Patsy because it's her fibers that are all over the staging elements.

    Whatever happened, it is gut-wrenching to think of the time elapsing between the first head blow and the final strangulation causing JonBenet's death. How did any one of them carry on, from that day forward??????

  11. #23
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    The last question is really the most important one, isn't it?

    WHERE did it happen? That would go a long way in piecing together the events of the night.
    I think it may have happened in her room or BR's room. I think that is where the molestation took place, and to me, that caused the scream that provoked the head bash. The blood on the pillowcase seems to indicate SOMETHING happened in there. We KNOW she bled, but it was only visible from her vagina. The head bash didn't bleed externally, but some tan-tinged mucus was noted, which could have been blood.

    What happened in the 90 minutes? Well assuming it WAS that long- it really isn't hard to imagine and for what it must have been like in the house at that time wasn't really a long time anyway. Frantic tears and rushing about, certainly PHONE CALLS. Coming up with a plan (fake kidnapping, ransom note) writing the lengthy note, staging her body, placing her in the wineceller, all this in a adrenaline blur. The human body in a high stress situation like that produced huge quantities of adrenaline and cortisol. Adrenaline can enable us to do things we'd never imagine, and it carries us along until whatever we are doing is finished. The effects can't be underestimated.

    How did she get by the paint tray? I believe she was carried down those stairs, as evidenced by the green fake garland in her hair, which I envision happening as she was carried down the spiral stairs which were wound with fake garland. I believe it was JR who carried her. I believe she was put down on the carpet near the paint tote, and left for a little while while they figured out what to do next. She likely appeared dead by then, though she was not. But I do not believe whoever wound that cord knew she was alive and I do not believe it was something BR could have done -alone, anyway. (Patsy had to provide the paintbrush- that is how her fibers got in the tote- and tied the cord. JR was with her. They both had input in the RN, but Patsy physically wrote it.
    After that, she was cleaned up, redressed and put in the WC, with Patsy either getting the panties from the gift box or telling JR where they were. JR puts the panties on her.
    Bottom line- I cannot see BR "helping" his parents stage that body or doing it alone. Parental fibers link them to the body. I think if BR was the one who bashed her, then he was the one who molested her. But his involvement did not include the staging. However- IF the blacked-out name IS BR, and there WERE fibers or other evidence linking him to the body, crime scene or WC, then I'd say JAR (or another male NOT JR) was involved with him in what happened and did most of the staging. But this is not my primary theory for the staging. I really do not think he was there for that.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  12. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Also, those marks that look like the end of the train track...How and when did those happen to her? If the end of a train track had been poked into her, she would have cried out, wouldn't she? Unless she were already unconscious, and the person who poked her was trying to find out if she would wake up....
    Quote Originally Posted by Pearlsim View Post
    The more likely scenario has Burke trying to rouse JonBenet from her fall and then panicking as he realized she couldn't/wouldn't get up.
    I believe this is why there are marks on JonBenet's back and face from the ends of the train track.

    Burke had heard the crack of JonBenet's skull and saw her fall to the floor after he hit her. Realizing JonBenet's injury was serious, Burke may have yelled at her to get up and tried to rouse her, but she just laid there as if dead. Burke thought if he poked JonBenet with something sharp, she'd react or wake up. He got a train track from the basement floor, and poked, then pushed it into her back and then the lower right side of her face. No reaction. Nothing.

    Panicked, Burke decides JonBenet is dead, and runs upstairs.



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