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  1. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    Something else I've been wondering and I'll see if I can articulate it.
    The cord around Jonbenets neck was extremely tight. But the cord tied around her wrists was extremely loose. If it was all staging then why pull the cord around her neck that tight and then leave the wrist cords so loose? If for example, JR or PR put that cord around her neck thinking she was already dead then why so tight??... when the wrist bindings were so loose? Something is off about this and it doesn't make sense to me.
    You raise a good point about the wrist cords. Why so loose?

  2. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Kolar reiterates that it was a slip knot, and that it did tighten when pulled.
    heymom.

    It seems Chief Kolar is correcting all the flaws for us.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  3. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    Yes, Kolar has cleared up so many things regarding the evidence.

    There's one thing that I don't remember reading before, which he buries on page 369 in the bombshell chapter on sexual behavior problems:



    What??!!!?? Did we know that before? Why do we have to wait until page 369 to hear about it? (I know, don't complain.)

    Kolar wrote this book very carefully to make sure he never said "Burke did it." Here he's also careful to not say - if he hit her once, he could have hit her again. Well, I'll say it.

    The next two paragraphs are about books the Paughs bought about problem child-rearing, including one called Why Johnny Can't Tell Right from Wrong. I've got a few opinions about that - I think there was so much ongoing trauma going on in the household, due to Patsy's cancer and its aftermath and the lack of any real therapy (apparently) to help the family deal with it. This was a woman walking around with a probable death sentence and everyone acted as if everything was JUST GREAT. Their whole lives were staging.
    Just think about that implication. Patsy mentioned that incident but made it sound as though it had been a very minor accident. What if it hadn't been? What if Burke struck JonBenet more or less on purpose, with a junior sized golf club? Now we have JonBenet struck almost dead by some instrument, golf clubs all over the basement, and JR asking for Pam Paugh to get his golf clubs out of the house when she goes on her evidence raid. It all seems a bit of a coincidence...or maybe it's not....
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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  4. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    The last question is really the most important one, isn't it?

    WHERE did it happen? That would go a long way in piecing together the events of the night.
    I think it may have happened in her room or BR's room. I think that is where the molestation took place, and to me, that caused the scream that provoked the head bash. The blood on the pillowcase seems to indicate SOMETHING happened in there. We KNOW she bled, but it was only visible from her vagina. The head bash didn't bleed externally, but some tan-tinged mucus was noted, which could have been blood.

    What happened in the 90 minutes? Well assuming it WAS that long- it really isn't hard to imagine and for what it must have been like in the house at that time wasn't really a long time anyway. Frantic tears and rushing about, certainly PHONE CALLS. Coming up with a plan (fake kidnapping, ransom note) writing the lengthy note, staging her body, placing her in the wineceller, all this in a adrenaline blur. The human body in a high stress situation like that produced huge quantities of adrenaline and cortisol. Adrenaline can enable us to do things we'd never imagine, and it carries us along until whatever we are doing is finished. The effects can't be underestimated.

    How did she get by the paint tray? I believe she was carried down those stairs, as evidenced by the green fake garland in her hair, which I envision happening as she was carried down the spiral stairs which were wound with fake garland. I believe it was JR who carried her. I believe she was put down on the carpet near the paint tote, and left for a little while while they figured out what to do next. She likely appeared dead by then, though she was not. But I do not believe whoever wound that cord knew she was alive and I do not believe it was something BR could have done -alone, anyway. (Patsy had to provide the paintbrush- that is how her fibers got in the tote- and tied the cord. JR was with her. They both had input in the RN, but Patsy physically wrote it.
    After that, she was cleaned up, redressed and put in the WC, with Patsy either getting the panties from the gift box or telling JR where they were. JR puts the panties on her.
    Bottom line- I cannot see BR "helping" his parents stage that body or doing it alone. Parental fibers link them to the body. I think if BR was the one who bashed her, then he was the one who molested her. But his involvement did not include the staging. However- IF the blacked-out name IS BR, and there WERE fibers or other evidence linking him to the body, crime scene or WC, then I'd say JAR (or another male NOT JR) was involved with him in what happened and did most of the staging. But this is not my primary theory for the staging. I really do not think he was there for that.
    I personally think Burke Ramsey was far too young to help with any of the staging DeeDee I cannot see this scene happening either! Plus, in spite of the garland in JonBenét's hair I think it would have been awkward for John Ramsey to have carried JB down the spiral staircase, while there was a more practical one available (?).

    I agree with your thinking "those" involved in the staging thought she was dead.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  5. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pearlsim View Post

    Whatever happened, it is gut-wrenching to think of the time elapsing between the first head blow and the final strangulation causing JonBenet's death. How did any one of them carry on, from that day forward??????
    Why couldn't the Ramseys have called 911? Because they knew they would be in trouble because of the sexual abuse evidence which would have presented itself, so the staging had to be created.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  6. #42
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    Burke did none of the staging--I can't believe anyone would think a 9 YO would have that kind of sophistication. The theatrical tone of the ransom note is pure patsy Ramsey, and I believe the whole garrote scenario is straight out of a Tom Clancy novel. I don't believe Patsy would have had the heart to twist that garrote to the degree it had been twisted.

    I believe both JR and PR staged the crime scene because half of it was melodramatic and showed maternal caring, but the other half was cold and methodical.

    I still don't believe anyone has gotten the trigger quite right yet. This was a rage killing. The manual strangulation and head blow show that the attack was more than a split second flip out--the attack went on for at least a few seconds.

    The question remains: what triggered this episode?

  7. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    What??!!!?? Did we know that before? Why do we have to wait until page 369 to hear about it? (I know, don't complain.)

    Kolar wrote this book very carefully to make sure he never said "Burke did it." Here he's also careful to not say - if he hit her once, he could have hit her again. Well, I'll say it.
    We did hear about the golf club incident in both IRMI and PMPT.
    Here is some relevant information to the discussion from both sources:

    JonBenét was only four years old, not yet in kindergarten, when she hit the circuit, and the judges immediately knew that the sparkling beginner in the white dress still needed a lot of work, but they said she was a natural. In the summer of 1994 JonBenét was accidentally hit on the left cheek by a golf club swung by her brother, Burke, and her mother rushed the child to see a plastic surgeon, who thought Patsy was overreacting. The doctor apparently didn’t understand the importance of an imperfection on a budding beauty queen.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 4

    Among the items police now sought were the possible bludgeon that caused the head wound and any dark fabric that might account for the fibers found on the body. A red clay brick that appeared to have fibers stuck to it was retrieved from the living room fireplace, and a golf club with a blond hair on it was found in the backyard. They were also looking for traces of semen, and in the victim’s bedroom, ultraviolet light showed stains on the bed and surrounding carpet. The mattress was wrapped in plastic.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 48

    Patsy awoke while he was gone and staggered from the bedroom to a couch, barely able to speak, and told her sisters she needed some things from Fifteenth Street. John was overheard to ask someone quietly, “Did you get my golf bag?” When I learned of that statement, it seemed totally out of order. There had been two golf bags in the house, but he had not specified which one he wanted. Neither bag was collected by police. Moreover, it was winter in Colorado, Michigan, and Georgia, not exactly optimal golfing conditions. Why would a man whose daughter had just been murdered be wanting his golf clubs anyway? I wondered what else might have been in the bag that was so important that Ramsey would even think to ask about it.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 53

    Down a short hall was the boiler room, which had a chest freezer and an exposed ventilation duct leading to the street. At the rear of that room, a door led to the wine cellar. The door and its painted jamb and frame were removed by the police. Just outside the room, they found two partial sets of golf clubs belonging to John Ramsey. Inside the room was a large corrugated box with six partly used cans of interior paint and seven more gallon-size interior paint cans. Built into the floor was a safe. A greenish-blue tarp lay over it. A bicycle missing its front wheel was propped up in one corner beside some lumber and other construction material. Throughout the house the police had ripped out every toilet, looking for evidence in the plumbing traps.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 109 – 110

    JonBenét was born on August 6, 1990, in Atlanta. Beuf became her doctor when the Ramseys moved to Boulder in late 1991. On December 6, 1991, he treated JonBenét for a fever, cough, and wheezing. Over the next ten months, she had the usual colds and coughs of a toddler. By the time JonBenét was two and a half years old, she had developed a history of coughs accompanied by low-grade fever.
    In July 1993, Patsy Ramsey was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. It was just one month short of JonBenét’s third birthday. The child, who went to stay with her grandmother Nedra, regressed in her toilet training and eating habits. Suzanne Savage, a baby-sitter, began to help Nedra care for JonBenét.
    At three years and one month, JonBenét was brought to see the doctor. Her buttocks were chafed red from diarrhea, as was her vaginal area.
    Two months later, JonBenét was back in the doctor’s office with a cough and a stuffed nose. She was sleeping poorly, was grouchy from fatigue, and had bad breath. She appeared to have chronic sinusitis. At the end of 1993, JonBenét, at age three, was still drinking from a bottle, and Patsy and John were having problems weaning her.
    On October 5, 1994, when JonBenét showed up at the doctor’s office for a checkup, she had a scar on her left cheek. She’d been hit accidentally by a golf club when the family was in Charlevoix. A week later a plastic surgeon in Denver was consulted. There was no injury to her cheekbone, nothing to worry about. Beuf was told that she was getting along with her brothers and older sister. But she was wearing Pull-Ups at night because she sometimes wet the bed. That same day Patsy filled out a developmental questionnaire. She said there were no aspects of JonBenét’s behavior or sex education she needed to discuss. JonBenét was four years and three months old.
    At Alfalfa’s food market on May 8, 1995, JonBenét fell and landed on her nose. It was not broken. Seven and a half months later, she tripped and hit her head above her left eye. At the time, she had a stuffy nose and bad breath and was coughing.
    Almost a year later, in March 1996, JonBenét was coughing a lot, and two months later she bent the nail back on the fourth finger of her left hand in another fall. Though it was swollen and painful, there was no bruising.
    Three months before JonBenét’s death, on August 27, Patsy told Beuf that JonBenét was a good sleeper, wasn’t hard to get to bed, and was easily awakened in the morning. She wasn’t interested in the opposite sex, behaved modestly in public, and didn’t engage in sex play with her friends. She was, however, asking about sex roles and reproduction. She was not rude or afraid of either parent. She didn’t seem to be bossy with her brother, Burke, didn’t react with tantrums, and was active. She loved fruit and some vegetables. Patsy said she was delightful and doing very well. Burke had his annual checkup the same day
    In October, two months before her murder, JonBenét had a stuffy nose and bad breath. She was diagnosed with allergic rhinitis. On November 12, JonBenét was checked for the last time by Beuf. She had a runny nose and a cold sore and was sneezing. Three weeks later her eyesight was checked by Dr. Marilyn Dougherty. In early December, JonBenét missed a pageant appearance because she was sick, but she didn’t see Dr. Beuf.
    Dr. Beuf told a reporter covering the story that JonBenét had had an average number of physician visits for a child her age.
    The police now had to collate the medical data with other information before any conclusions could be drawn.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 334 – 336

    The police said that JonBenét’s head injury could have been caused by the flashlight they found on the Ramseys’ kitchen counter, although nothing had been found on the flashlight to tie it to the crime or the injury. There was nothing on the child’s scalp to suggest the pattern on the casing of the Maglite. Whatever had struck JonBenét on the head had left a rectangular hole in her scalp about the size of a dime. It could have been made by the joint that connects a golf club to its shaft. John Ramsey’s partial set of clubs had been discovered just paces away from where JonBenét’s body was found.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 660 – 661

  8. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    Burke did none of the staging--I can't believe anyone would think a 9 YO would have that kind of sophistication. The theatrical tone of the ransom note is pure patsy Ramsey, and I believe the whole garrote scenario is straight out of a Tom Clancy novel. I don't believe Patsy would have had the heart to twist that garrote to the degree it had been twisted.

    I believe both JR and PR staged the crime scene because half of it was melodramatic and showed maternal caring, but the other half was cold and methodical.

    I still don't believe anyone has gotten the trigger quite right yet. This was a rage killing. The manual strangulation and head blow show that the attack was more than a split second flip out--the attack went on for at least a few seconds.

    The question remains: what triggered this episode?
    We've always seen the neck cord and the wrists being bound as part of the staging. But what if they weren't? What if that was part of the original episode? Then you have a different scenario entirely.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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  9. #45
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    Sorry but no. The head blow came first. So did the manual strangulation.

    What this means is this: The initial attack consisted of both manual strangulation AND a head blow. That is pure rage. Something occurred that triggered a violent encounter.

    I believe that at some point, those involved in the staging thought JBR was already dead from the skull fracture, but they also knew about/saw the abrasions to the neck and needed a convenient explanation for the neck abrasions. Thus the garrote was born. As per Tom Clancy.

    I believe that the Ice man came into this and staged the garrote--not knowing he was actually strangling the last bit of life out of JBR. I think JBR's pulse was so slight at the time that everyone went into cover-your A mode.

  10. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    We did hear about the golf club incident in both IRMI and PMPT.
    Here is some relevant information to the discussion from both sources:

    [snip]

    Almost a year later, in March 1996, JonBenét was coughing a lot, and two months later she bent the nail back on the fourth finger of her left hand in another fall. Though it was swollen and painful, there was no bruising.
    [snip]
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 334 – 336

    [snip]
    As ever a fount of information I've long forgotten. Thank you so much, cynic.

    This part caught my attention because recently I was reading some old threads here and the Judith Phillips photos were the topic.

    Since the following tabloid print of a Judith Phillips photo shows the RIGHT hand having a curve to the third finger of the right hand, I guess it's not related to this injuiry, but how many "finger" accidents did the child have?

    In fact, how many illnesses and accidents did the child have? These are just the ones in her medical records, after all. I know kids can be very clumsy, but it's just one more "coincidence" I'm now finding awfully suspicious.



    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...Cookie&page=16

    This is from the same photo shoot:

    Last edited by koldkase; August 16, 2012, 7:56 pm at Thu Aug 16 19:56:32 UTC 2012.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  11. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tricia View Post
    omg this is a great thread
    Thank you, fearless leader! Always appreciate your feedback.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  12. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    Sorry but no. The head blow came first. So did the manual strangulation.

    What this means is this: The initial attack consisted of both manual strangulation AND a head blow. That is pure rage. Something occurred that triggered a violent encounter.

    I believe that at some point, those involved in the staging thought JBR was already dead from the skull fracture, but they also knew about/saw the abrasions to the neck and needed a convenient explanation for the neck abrasions. Thus the garrote was born. As per Tom Clancy.

    I believe that the Ice man came into this and staged the garrote--not knowing he was actually strangling the last bit of life out of JBR. I think JBR's pulse was so slight at the time that everyone went into cover-your A mode.
    I am not sure I understand your scenario, Bob.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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