Page 5 of 15 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
Results 49 to 60 of 178
  1. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    8,381

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    Burke did none of the staging--I can't believe anyone would think a 9 YO would have that kind of sophistication. The theatrical tone of the ransom note is pure patsy Ramsey, and I believe the whole garrote scenario is straight out of a Tom Clancy novel. I don't believe Patsy would have had the heart to twist that garrote to the degree it had been twisted.

    I believe both JR and PR staged the crime scene because half of it was melodramatic and showed maternal caring, but the other half was cold and methodical.

    I still don't believe anyone has gotten the trigger quite right yet. This was a rage killing. The manual strangulation and head blow show that the attack was more than a split second flip out--the attack went on for at least a few seconds.

    The question remains: what triggered this episode?
    I think Patsy Ramsey was exhausted from Christmas and was confronted with a soiled bed from JonBenét for the umpteenth time and went into a rage.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  2. #50

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    Burke did none of the staging--I can't believe anyone would think a 9 YO would have that kind of sophistication. The theatrical tone of the ransom note is pure patsy Ramsey, and I believe the whole garrote scenario is straight out of a Tom Clancy novel. I don't believe Patsy would have had the heart to twist that garrote to the degree it had been twisted.

    I believe both JR and PR staged the crime scene because half of it was melodramatic and showed maternal caring, but the other half was cold and methodical.


    I still don't believe anyone has gotten the trigger quite right yet. This was a rage killing. The manual strangulation and head blow show that the attack was more than a split second flip out--the attack went on for at least a few seconds.

    The question remains: what triggered this episode?
    RBBM (Red): I totally agree with you on this BobC. The note just screams that Patsy wrote it. All it needed was a neon sign saying, "Patsy wrote this note."

    RBBM (Purple): Again, I totally agree. Plus, fibers from both of their clothes were found on JonBenet, on the tape, or wrapped in the rope.

    RBBM (Green): Yes, it was a rage killing. I think that the perp grabbed her and choked her with her shirt, let her go, and then hit her from behind with a golf club. And yes, the question remains, what triggered the episode? Did JonBenet touch Burke's new toys and he got mad and just lost it?

    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    Sorry but no. The head blow came first. So did the manual strangulation.

    What this means is this: The initial attack consisted of both manual strangulation AND a head blow. That is pure rage. Something occurred that triggered a violent encounter.

    I believe that at some point, those involved in the staging thought JBR was already dead from the skull fracture, but they also knew about/saw the abrasions to the neck and needed a convenient explanation for the neck abrasions. Thus the garrote was born. As per Tom Clancy.

    I believe that the Ice man came into this and staged the garrote--not knowing he was actually strangling the last bit of life out of JBR. I think JBR's pulse was so slight at the time that everyone went into cover-your A mode.

    RBBM (Red): I agree with this totally.


    RBBM (Blue): "Ice man" fits JR to a "T." I actually believe he did check her pulse and either didn't feel it because it was so weak, or he felt it but knew that she was probably going to die anyway, so he strangled the last bit of life out of her. Then, the CYA mode was in full play.

    O/T: I am enjoying discussing this case again. Mr. Kolar really did an excellent job in writing his book.

    Thank you Cynic for quoting those parts of ST's book and also the quotes from PMPT. I am going to dig my ST book out and read it again. I wonder why he never mentioned the feces covered chocolates?

    KK, thank you for the excellent work you have done!
    Last edited by Tez; August 16, 2012, 10:09 pm at Thu Aug 16 22:09:11 UTC 2012. Reason: tried to fix my formatting....LOL

    The above is just my opinion, right or wrong, but please leave it at FFJ.

  3. #51

    Default

    I feel like I'm invisible around here.

  4. #52

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tez View Post
    RBBM (Red): I totally agree with you on this BobC. The note just screams that Patsy wrote it. All it needed was a neon sign saying, "Patsy wrote this note."

    RBBM (Purple): Again, I totally agree. Plus, fibers from both of their clothes were found on JonBenet, on the tape, or wrapped in the rope.

    RBBM (Green): Yes, it was a rage killing. I think that the perp grabbed her and choked her with her shirt, let her go, and then hit her from behind with a golf club. And yes, the question remains, what triggered the episode? Did JonBenet touch Burke's new toys and he got mad and just lost it?



    RBBM (Red): I agree with this totally.


    RBBM (Blue): "Ice man" fits JR to a "T." I actually believe he did check her pulse and either didn't feel it because it was so weak, or he felt it but knew that she was probably going to die anyway, so he strangled the last bit of life out of her. Then, the CYA mode was in full play.

    O/T: I am enjoying discussing this case again. Mr. Kolar really did an excellent job in writing his book.

    Thank you Cynic for quoting those parts of ST's book and also the quotes from PMPT. I am going to dig my ST book out and read it again. I wonder why he never mentioned the feces covered chocolates?

    KK, thank you for the excellent work you have done!
    Both of you, Tez and BobC are making sense here. I think this is a very logical scenario with a tussle whereby the little girl was slung around by her shirt collar and then the head blow. BobC, you make a good point about there being two personalities present in the staging..one caring and one cold...good point.

    I wonder if a staging (by two) isn't played out in the behavior witnessed the next morning. You have Patsy almost hysterical and cool, calm John. Also, it was noted that Patsy and John were distant that morning when one would believe that husband would be consoling his wife. I wonder. Was this a psychological give away? I mean, put yourself into this situation. Pretend that you and your husband or you and your wife had just covered an accident/murder by staging a kidnapping gone wrong complete with a ransom note. Might you avoid one another out of guilt or out of fear that your interaction might give away the whole ruse?

  5. #53

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I feel like I'm invisible around here.
    Karen, I am sorry you feel invisible. I am trying to figure out an answer to your questions about the cord around her neck and hands. Personally, I think the cord around her arms/hands was just part of the staging to make it look like she was tied up. And as we know, it was the garotte tightening that killed her. Kolar brings out it was 90 minutes approx. from the head blow to her death from being garotted by whomever did it.

    HTH

    The above is just my opinion, right or wrong, but please leave it at FFJ.

  6. #54
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    8,381

    Default

    Who was the person who cleaned up after young JonBenét soiled her bed many times - her mother - Patsy Ramsey! Linda Hoffman Pugh stated the sheets were in the dryer many times when she arrived in the morning!

    Who would be the person to go into a rage because of always having to clean up after her young daughter, JonBenét? Her mother - Patsy Ramsey!

    This little girl was killed in an attack of rage by her mother!
    PATSY RAMSEY!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  7. #55

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I feel like I'm invisible around here.
    Oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! Not again!

    Sooooo sorry, Karen. As per requested at WS, I also started this same topic thread there. I've been dancing like crazy trying to keep up, and basically, I haven't done such a good job. I have about 50 posts I haven't even read yet, just skimmed, which is why I did manage to post about a couple of things I spotted.

    Please, have a sit down and a beer I stole from Moab:

    I will try to catch up this weekend, promise!

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #56
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    4,435

    Default

    Heymom--I'm saying what Tez is saying. Something happened that night very quickly--something that made the killer lash out violently at that little girl. We may never know what that trigger was--but it could have been something as mundane as bed-wetting or just JBR throwing a tantrum'

    I am also with Tez in saying that I think JBR was clinging to life, heartbeat almost undetectable, when the second stager came in. Note that the ligatures on the arms are bright white, loose, with no pressure at all on the wrists. This is amateur stuff--it shows that the first stager couldn't even bring herself to tighten them. Contrast those to the garrote. The garrote is dark, beat up, and wrenched strongly around JBR's neck.

    So to me, it is almost certain that one stager started the staging, was doing a half-azzzed job, and someone with a "psychopathic coldness" came in and really made it look convincing.

  9. #57

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by bobc View Post
    heymom--i'm saying what tez is saying. Something happened that night very quickly--something that made the killer lash out violently at that little girl. We may never know what that trigger was--but it could have been something as mundane as bed-wetting or just jbr throwing a tantrum'

    i am also with tez in saying that i think jbr was clinging to life, heartbeat almost undetectable, when the second stager came in. Note that the ligatures on the arms are bright white, loose, with no pressure at all on the wrists. This is amateur stuff--it shows that the first stager couldn't even bring herself to tighten them. Contrast those to the garrote. The garrote is dark, beat up, and wrenched strongly around jbr's neck.

    so to me, it is almost certain that one stager started the staging, was doing a half-azzzed job, and someone with a "psychopathic coldness" came in and really made it look convincing.
    rbbm: Yes, yes, yes!!!!!

    The above is just my opinion, right or wrong, but please leave it at FFJ.

  10. #58
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    8,381

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I feel like I'm invisible around here.
    No way! I'm reading all your excellent posts, Karen. You are very thorough! Now there's a good girl! Keep going!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  11. #59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearlsim View Post
    My oldest child had a hairline skull fracture when he was a toddler. He's now 30 years old but I can still bring back the horrible sound of his skull cracking. While though there was no blood evident from JonBenet's blow to the head, Burke would've had to hear that awful sound. Even as an almost ten year old, I think he would've known something was dreadfully wrong when he heard her skull crack open and watched her drop to the floor immediately.

    I'm honestly trying to imagine what he would've done. I doubt he would've grasped that he'd mortally wounded her but would the instinct to save his own hide have kicked on, or might he have run to mom or dad for help? I go back and forth between those two possibilities.

    I was a demure, obedient child but I once set a piece of paper on fire and then got so panicked I dropped the flaming paper in a wastebasket, left the room, closed the door and tried to slink off. (I was about 5 or 6 at the time.) Thank God my Uncle felt like something was up because he went into the bedroom and put out the fire I'd started. In my mind, I guess i thought if no one saw what I'd done, it would all go away? A part of me wonders if Burke didn't head his sister over the head and then "hide" from what he'd done by going upstairs to bed.

    The more likely scenario has Burke trying to rouse JonBenet from her fall and then panicking as he realized she couldn't/wouldn't get up. Patsy was either already close by and saw all this happening or Burke went to get her, putting the whole staging cycle in motion. I say Patsy because it's her fibers that are all over the staging elements.

    Whatever happened, it is gut-wrenching to think of the time elapsing between the first head blow and the final strangulation causing JonBenet's death. How did any one of them carry on, from that day forward??????
    So glad your son's injury healed. I often marvel that parents get their children to adulthood at all sometimes.

    You know, Kolar has given us some other evidence that has us looking at Burke closer, sometimes in hints more than anything--like the "believed to be Burke's" pj bottoms on the floor in JB's room.

    But the bottom line is we really can't say who struck that blow to her head.

    So that's why I want to answer the question of where it happened: if it happened in her bedroom, or the kitchen, or basement, or Burke's room, or in the hallway...that would go a long way to determining who attacked the child with such a deadly accuracy, even if only in a childish rage or in an adult fury.

    How did they carry on? My guess: excellent pharmacology.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  12. #60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Remember, JonBenet was fully clothed, in a long-sleeved shirt and long johns, so if she was dragged, there would be no abrasions or carpet burns.

    Also, those marks that look like the end of the train track...How and when did those happen to her? If the end of a train track had been poked into her, she would have cried out, wouldn't she? Unless she were already unconscious, and the person who poked her was trying to find out if she would wake up....
    Good points about her clothing. I do wonder if she would have had bruising under her arms or from gripping them and her body weight dragging? She was a little thing, so maybe she wouldn't have had drag marks on her heels or feet. But that basement was such a mess. And I wonder why Burke would want to move her to the paint tray at all, if this was happening in the basement. Why not just bring the items to where she fell? Unless we're speculating that he was the one who staged her in the cellar room.

    Remember Kolar reported that Pastor Holverstock said when JR brought JB up he stated something like "He didn't mean to hurt her, he wrapped her in a blanket"? It was odd, to say the least.

    That is an interesting thought, about using the train tracks to poke her to "wake" her. Remember she had very similar marks on her leg in a summer photo taken of her earlier that year. The marks look the exact same to me. (You can see those in our case library if you missed some of those discussions.)

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



Similar Threads

  1. Critical thinking TIME
    By BobC in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: August 17, 2006, 5:22 pm, Thu Aug 17 17:22:43 UTC 2006
  2. I'm new and got a few questions
    By SSIEGMUND in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: November 5, 2004, 6:06 pm, Fri Nov 5 18:06:33 UTC 2004
  3. Two Questions
    By Moab in forum Miriam Zambie Illes Case Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: February 21, 2004, 11:52 pm, Sat Feb 21 23:52:36 UTC 2004

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •