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  1. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    You may be on to something here, kk, with this "what did you find" thoughts.
    If BR nailed her and comforted her with a blanket, etc., and went off to bed, it would explain his question and John's answer. "Well, what did you find?" "We're not speaking to you!" Sure would love to hear that enhanced Aerospace tape.

    I think JB was hit in some room where there wasn't carpet. I can't let go of this lint and dust being on JBR's feet. I believe this is one reason ST thinks she was injured in the bathroom during a bed wetting incident. He mentions this lint and dust in his book...there's a reason I think. Have you ever walked across a dirty wood or kitchen floor and step on some cookie crumbs or residue? Dust will generally stick to your feet but I wouldn't think so much when you're standing on carpet unless that basement carpet was really dirty.

    At any rate, I need some help here. JBR was photographed, on Christmas morning, in longjohns without any socks..standing with bare feet. Now.
    We are told that JBR was cleaned and redressed after death. If longjohns were removed (and they had to be if new underpants were placed on), then, wouldn't the removing and replacing of longjohns on JBR have removed the dust and lint from the bottoms of her feet? The longjohns have a small leg opening which fits tight around the ankle..If you remove these longjohns, then, it would rub tightly against the soles of her feet, no? Same goes for putting longjohns on.

    This makes me wonder. Was JBR dressed for bed with pullups on, large panties on over the pullups and then longjohns on over these items???? If she was molested and bled, maybe she bled onto the pullups, these were torn off and flushed and the large panties placed back without having to remove the longjohns?

    Can anyone correct me if I have the evidence wrong?
    Oh, one thing I did think about, though: wouldn't flushing a large diaper down the toilet stop up the whole system? Even a small diaper would, I'm thinking.

    And again, we still have heard no word about those pink pj bottoms that she had on Christmas morning.

    But since the top to those is on the bed, at exactly where the pillow should have been, and Patsy said they put the pj's under the pillow, it would appear the bottoms either were not put under the pillow with the top, or why didn't Patsy put those on JB? She said she dressed her in the dark and described some difficulty in finding the longjohns, in fact.

    So did JB get the pink bottoms dirty Christmas morning...or were they in the floor, where she left them when she got dressed to play for the day?

    And why would Burke's pj's have been in the floor in that room? Only one bed was slept in that night--though we only have the Ramsey's word for much of anything, and that's sure to be deliberately misleading.

    They were consummate liars, weren't they? Ha ha. If their lips were moving, they were lying.

    I guess I'm pondering if the gown might have been put on her that night, Learnin. That would be easy to remove without lint/dirt coming off. Then the longjohns being put on over her feet maybe wouldn't have necessarily wiped all that off of them.

    Does anyone specifically remember if the Bloomies did or did not have urine on them? For some reason, I have been thinking they didn't, but now I'm just not sure.

    If they didn't, then they would have been put on after the strangulation. But the longjohns were put on before, because they have urine stains on the front, which is consistent that she died on her stomach.

    But...what if she wet those first? In her bed?

    Oh, cheeeeeeerist on a cracker. I'm sorry, Learnin. I keep wandering around trying to put anything together that makes sense, and honestly, I'm throwing up my hands.

    The conditions this child lived in were horrific, and I think it's clear how she ended up dead: the cancer in that family grew until it killed her.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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    3 Dimensional

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    My opinions, nothing more.

  2. #86
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    RiverRat is offline FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Left is Patsy Ramsey)
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    Cool

    I know that one of the Ramseys first statements said that Burke would not go to bed Christmas night and was in his Train Room. Will look it up when I can unless someone else has that handy!

    Love to All ~
    Ratty
    "Don't play dumb with me, RR! You're no good at it." The Punisher

    "Although no one is anticipating a prompt resolution to this long and much-detoured case, perhaps - just perhaps - might we see one of those moments “when a chance arrow of history scores a perfect bullseye on a deserving target”? Steve Thomas 2009

    "Justice hasn't had a chance so far. Anyone who doesn't have this as their prime goal, we'll have a falling out with." Fleet White - Time Magazine

    "What happens is that evil comes in," Fleet says. "If you don't have truth, all you have are lies, then what comes in is evil. And evil just does its thing. In the Ramsey case, it just did its thing, and it's eaten up so many people."

  3. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    Patsy told the investigators about JB and her friend "playing kitty". Of course we don't know the expression on the investigators' faces, but if these were men who did not have little girls themselves they might have looked at Patsy with puzzled expressions. Patsy then made an odd comment- she said "OH, you don't like kitty?" But the investigators had not said anything,
    This was in the 1997 interview with Thomas and Trujillo; they were asking about a pageant entry form Patsy had filled out. (This particular transcript has a lot of errors in it. I'm assuming the sound quality was difficult and/or possibly the transcriber wasn't that good?)

    TT: To see what was available. OK. On one of JonBenet’s (inaudible), you do like a pageant resume, is that right? Or, I don’t know if that resume is the right word.
    PR: Like an entry form or something?
    TT: Yeah, entry form or something that kind of tell people about, who JonBenet, what her likes are?
    PR: Yeah. You write down that, like what’s their hobbies.
    TT: Right. And on of those had something about a kitty game, that was her favorite game. You remember what that’s about?
    PR: Kitty?
    TT: Yeah.
    PR: To play kitty. Yeah, she likes to play kitty (inaudible).
    TT: Uh.
    PR: You don’t like kitty huh. She and Daphne like to, they love kittens. And we had some kittens up at the lake (inaudible). And she and Daphne like to pretend they were kittens. She’s just, they would walk around and they would say, oh there’s a kitty, (inaudible). Let’s go into the pet shop, I think I’ll buy this one.
    TT: And that’s the game JonBenet really like or something?
    PR: She and Daphne played kitty. They’d walk around on all fours, you know.
    TT: Ah, you have anything else, Steve.
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=5197

    So is there an actual source that Burke put his sister on the end of a leash of some kind when playing? Or did that just get pondered about and confused with this?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
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  4. #88

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    Hey, Rat! Good to see you.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  5. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Oh, one thing I did think about, though: wouldn't flushing a large diaper down the toilet stop up the whole system? Even a small diaper would, I'm thinking.

    And again, we still have heard no word about those pink pj bottoms that she had on Christmas morning.

    But since the top to those is on the bed, at exactly where the pillow should have been, and Patsy said they put the pj's under the pillow, it would appear the bottoms either were not put under the pillow with the top, or why didn't Patsy put those on JB? She said she dressed her in the dark and described some difficulty in finding the longjohns, in fact.

    So did JB get the pink bottoms dirty Christmas morning...or were they in the floor, where she left them when she got dressed to play for the day?

    And why would Burke's pj's have been in the floor in that room? Only one bed was slept in that night--though we only have the Ramsey's word for much of anything, and that's sure to be deliberately misleading.

    They were consummate liars, weren't they? Ha ha. If their lips were moving, they were lying.

    I guess I'm pondering if the gown might have been put on her that night, Learnin. That would be easy to remove without lint/dirt coming off. Then the longjohns being put on over her feet maybe wouldn't have necessarily wiped all that off of them.

    Does anyone specifically remember if the Bloomies did or did not have urine on them? For some reason, I have been thinking they didn't, but now I'm just not sure.

    If they didn't, then they would have been put on after the strangulation. But the longjohns were put on before, because they have urine stains on the front, which is consistent that she died on her stomach.

    But...what if she wet those first? In her bed?

    Oh, cheeeeeeerist on a cracker. I'm sorry, Learnin. I keep wandering around trying to put anything together that makes sense, and honestly, I'm throwing up my hands.

    The conditions this child lived in were horrific, and I think it's clear how she ended up dead: the cancer in that family grew until it killed her.

    1. I think pull-ups, kk, are just manufactured with thin sheet of plastic and absorbent paper material...not very hard to rip apart. At least the ones, we use on our incontinent patients in the hospital, are easily torn apart and would flush easily enough.

    2. Good point about whether or not the bloomies were urine stained. I have to see if I can find out today. If someone knows off the top of their head, then, please let me know. Obviously, if the panties were free of urine, then, my theory about the pull-ups, etc., would be wrong.

    3. But. If the longjohns were urine stained at the time the ligature was tightened, and the panties were not, and she was violated before the ligature was tightened, what does that tell us? If she was violated with the paintbrush stick, she had to be violated after the head blow and before the ligature was tightened which means on the floor at the entrance to the wine cellar. We know she bled when violated as blood was wiped off her thigh and crotch. Why did this not get on the carpet?

  6. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Quote:
    Learnin:
    At any rate, I need some help here. JBR was photographed, on Christmas morning, in longjohns without any socks..standing with bare feet. Now.
    We are told that JBR was cleaned and redressed after death. If longjohns were removed (and they had to be if new underpants were placed on), then, wouldn't the removing and replacing of longjohns on JBR have removed the dust and lint from the bottoms of her feet? The longjohns have a small leg opening which fits tight around the ankle..If you remove these longjohns, then, it would rub tightly against the soles of her feet, no? Same goes for putting longjohns on.

    I'm thinking there's a long gap between Christmas morning, Learnin until JonBenét was back into her jammies. JonBenét was dressed for playing throughout Christmas day, until redressed again to attend the White's party. That lint would have been long gone by then with all the playing and walking around on Christmas day wearing her socks and shoes.
    __________________
    The only reason I mentioned Christmas morning, Elle, is to point out that JBR, obviously, didn't wear socks to bed and would run around the house without socks on. Since she had dust on the soles of her feet, at autopsy, it's safe to assume she was dressed in sleeping attire that fateful night before first blow was struck. In other words, it indicates to me that JBR didn't come in the house, eat some pineapple, and get struck before going up stairs and getting dressed for bed.

  7. #91
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    Default Pull-ups

    I used pull-ups for my two youngest children when they were small. My son is a year younger than JonBenet so we're talking the same general time frame regarding how the pull-ups were made. That said, I can categorically state that those pull-ups would not have been able to be flushed down a toilet without stopping it up.

  8. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    The only reason I mentioned Christmas morning, Elle, is to point out that JBR, obviously, didn't wear socks to bed and would run around the house without socks on. Since she had dust on the soles of her feet, at autopsy, it's safe to assume she was dressed in sleeping attire that fateful night before first blow was struck. In other words, it indicates to me that JBR didn't come in the house, eat some pineapple, and get struck before going up stairs and getting dressed for bed.
    Oh, that's an interesting observation, Learnin. I'm going to think about that.

    I agree, Elle. I don't think loose lint/dirt from earlier in the day would have survived on her feet unless, as Learnin is thinking, she walked around barefoot that night before she was bludgeoned.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    1. I think pull-ups, kk, are just manufactured with thin sheet of plastic and absorbent paper material...not very hard to rip apart. At least the ones, we use on our incontinent patients in the hospital, are easily torn apart and would flush easily enough.

    2. Good point about whether or not the bloomies were urine stained. I have to see if I can find out today. If someone knows off the top of their head, then, please let me know. Obviously, if the panties were free of urine, then, my theory about the pull-ups, etc., would be wrong.

    3. But. If the longjohns were urine stained at the time the ligature was tightened, and the panties were not, and she was violated before the ligature was tightened, what does that tell us? If she was violated with the paintbrush stick, she had to be violated after the head blow and before the ligature was tightened which means on the floor at the entrance to the wine cellar. We know she bled when violated as blood was wiped off her thigh and crotch. Why did this not get on the carpet?
    I guess I never tried to pull paper diapers apart to flush, Learnin, so I'm no help on this point.

    I'm completely stymied on whether the Bloomies had urine on them. It wouldn't seem so, because then the blood droplets would have diluted and not appeared defined enough for Dr. Meyer to try to match them to any on the genitals--which he couldn't, I think Thomas wrote?

    It just seems I've always thought there was no urine on those, and I don't remember any discussion about it in so long, I don't remember any discussion about it. Seems we'd have spotted that long ago, right?

    See, there still are so many elements of this case, minutiae, we don't have answers to. It seems picky...but we're talking about a crime scene with possible multiple offenders, staging, and a Chinese Great Wall of cover up for 15 years.

    The sequence of what was done to the child and where should have been nailed down by LE long ago.

    So if it was, Kolar should know. If he doesn't know, then for all the 60K pages of case file, somebody didn't do the job they should have.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pearlsim View Post
    I used pull-ups for my two youngest children when they were small. My son is a year younger than JonBenet so we're talking the same general time frame regarding how the pull-ups were made. That said, I can categorically state that those pull-ups would not have been able to be flushed down a toilet without stopping it up.
    Thanks, Pearlsim. I tend to agree with you on this.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
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  11. #95

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    For the record, the oversized Bloomie panties on JonBenet WERE urine stained according to the autopsy report.

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/library/autopsy.pdf

    "Beneath the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the words 'Wednesday' on the elastic band. The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch in maximum dimension."
    Last edited by Cherokee; August 19, 2012, 2:57 pm at Sun Aug 19 14:57:54 UTC 2012. Reason: correct typo

  12. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    For the record, the oversized Bloomie panties on JonBenet WERE urine stained according to the autopsy report.

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/library/autopsy.pdf

    "Beneath the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the words 'Wednesday' on the elastic band. The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch in maximum dimension."
    Ah, thank you, Cherokee!

    So that makes much more sense. She had on both the longjohns and Bloomies when her bladder released.

    Learnin, you asked about blood on the carpet outside the cellar room, in the urine there? It's a good question. If they tested to see if it was JB's urine, seems they would have found her blood in it, as well.

    Okay, what's the biology of determining whose urine it is? (I can't believe I'm asking these questions.)

    Seems I once read that it was only identifiable with skin cells sloughed off, same with mucous.

    In the case of the urine outside the cellar door, perhaps it included blood DNA, blood cells actually containing DNA?

    But as far as I remember, no one has ever stated what the lab report of that stain specifically was, just the conclusion.
    Last edited by Cherokee; August 19, 2012, 2:58 pm at Sun Aug 19 14:58:09 UTC 2012. Reason: correct Cherokee typo

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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