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  1. #13
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    Bravo otg. I see what you're aiming at, and I agree with you. In other words. It's where the palm of your hand lies flat at an angle above the back of your neck.

    Are you working in the medical field?
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  2. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    Another excellent and informative post, OTG! Fantastic and well illustrated! I do believe the head blow came from behind and have thought that for quite some time now. Your post reveals just how far to the rear the head blow landed and reveals how next to impossible it would have been for the blow to have come from the side or front of JonBenet.

    And yes, Dr. Spitz is full of it.
    This is what you have thought for a long time Cherokee. It's good for you to see it the way cynic and otg have illustrated it. What talented young men we have in our midst! Kudos to you for getting it right!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  3. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Bravo otg. I see what you're aiming at, and I agree with you. In other words. It's where the palm of your hand lies flat at an angle above the back of your neck.

    Are you working in the medical field?
    Heavens no, Elle. I usually feel kind of faint when I see blood. I'm just trying to understand this stuff the best I can with what information I can find and a little help from all the knowledgeable people I find on these two forums. You guys are the best! Y'all are legends!

  4. #16

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    cynic and otg - AWESOME. Thank you so much for this. I'm not a medical person and have been confused about the skull fracture. I really appreciate your thorough explanations, and the diagrams help so much!

  5. #17

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    Why did we (I did anyway) think that the depressed fracture (and that is the correct term for it -- see below*) was higher up on the skull?

    Most of us don’t have medical backgrounds, so all the anatomy and medical terminology doesn’t mean much to us. But when we saw that awful photo of JonBenet’s skull with most all of the flesh removed from the bone, suddenly we had a picture in our mind of what it looked like. I don’t know about you, but I really felt faint and nauseous when I first saw it. I guess I’ve become desensitized to it by now, because it doesn’t bother me quite as much. But if I think about the fact that I’m actually looking at the skull of a human being (and one I feel like we’ve come to somewhat know, or at least have a connection with) it does still bother me.

    But back to the skull fracture... After seeing the skull with the hole in it, we imagined where that would be on a child standing up. But what we were looking at was only part of the skull. The human skull has two main parts: The neurocranium and the viscerocranium. The neurocranium (or braincase, or cranial vault) is a protective vault surrounding the brain and brain stem, and the viscerocranium is the facial bone structure. The only photo we have showing the fractures is of the braincase only. I’ll demonstrate the difference in the following series of diagrams.

    The first illustration is a complete skull with the approximate area of the depressed fracture shown with the bold red line. The orientation of the skull here has the Frankfurt plane horizontal. [From Wikipedia: The Frankfurt plane (AKA: auriculo-orbital plane) was established at the World Congress on Anthropology in Frankfurt, Germany in 1884, and decreed as the anatomical position of the human skull. It was decided that a plane passing through the inferior margin of the left orbit (the point called the left orbitale) and the upper margin of each ear canal or external auditory meatus, a point called the porion, was most nearly parallel to the surface of the earth, and also close to the position the head is normally carried in the living subject.] I have drawn a fine red line through the points indicating the Frankfurt plane:



    In the next illustration, I’ve added a bold red line through the area approximately dividing the neurocranium and the viscerocranium:


    In the last illustration I’ve shifted the orientation making the dividing line between the two parts of the skull horizontal:


    So this is more in line with what we see when we view the autopsy photo of JonBenet’s skull. This is why (I believe) we “non-medical types” probably had the impression that the depressed fracture was much higher on the skull than it actually was. But Dr. Spitz is a “medical type” person. Dr. Spitz read the AR. Dr. Spitz should have known better.

    Now knowing exactly where the head blow made contact with the skull we have a more accurate idea of how it may have occurred. We know from what direction it had to have come in relation to the skull. What this unfortunately does not tell us is the position of her body at the time it happened. But we do know for instance that if she was standing, the assailant came down with the weapon from behind. If she was lying down, she would almost have to be lying on her stomach, and the assailant standing over her. You can apply the same to any other position you might want to imagine.



    *Reference from above (I'll be referring to some of the information below in future posts.)

    Four types of skull fractures:

    Linear: Breaks in the bone that transverse the full thickness of the skull from the outer to inner table, are usually fairly straight and involve no displacement of the bone. The common method of injury is blunt force trauma in which the energy from the blow is transferred over a wide surface area of the skull.

    Depressed: A type of fracture usually resulting from blunt force trauma, such as getting struck with a hammer, rock or getting kicked in the head. These types of fractures, which occur in 11% of severe head injuries, are comminuted fractures in which broken bones are displaced inward. Depressed skull fractures carry a high risk of increased pressure on the brain, or a hemorrhage to the brain, crushing the delicate tissue.

    Compound depressed skull fractures occur when there is a laceration over the fracture, resulting in the internal cranial cavity being in contact with the outside environment increasing the risk of contamination and infection. Complex depressed fractures are those in which the dura mater is torn. Depressed skull fractures may require surgery to lift the bones off the brain if they are placing pressure on it.

    Diastatic: These occur when the fracture line transverses one or more sutures of the skull causing a widening of the suture. While this type of fracture is usually seen in infants and young children as the sutures are not yet fused it can also occur in adults. When a diastatic fracture occurs in adults it usually affects the lambdoidal suture as this suture does not fully fuse in adults until about the age of 60.

    Diastatic fractures can occur with different types of fractures and it is also possible for diastasis of the cranial sutures to occur without a concomitant fracture.

    Basilar: Basically this is a linear fracture that occurs in the floor of the cranial vault (skull base), which requires more force to cause than other areas of the neurocranium. Thus they are rare, occurring as the only fracture in only 4% of severe head injury patients.

    Basilar fractures have characteristic signs: blood in the sinuses; a clear fluid called cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) leaking from the nose (rhinorrhea) or ears (otorrhea); periorbital ecchymosisr often called 'raccoon eyes' (bruising of the orbits of the eyes that result from blood collecting there as it leaks from the fracture site); and retroauricular ecchymosis known as "Battle's sign" (bruising over the mastoid process).

  6. #18
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    For a non medical person you're doing a great job here. So if JonBenét had been sitting eating her pineapple, the Frankfurt plane would have taken the hardest blow from whatever object was used; a fllashlight or a golf club, because her head was much lower down.

    Thank you for the lesson. I will have to read it a few times. No fun being a Senior, trust me! Thank you otg.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  7. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    In the last illustration I’ve shifted the orientation making the dividing line between the two parts of the skull horizontal:


    Now knowing exactly where the head blow made contact with the skull we have a more accurate idea of how it may have occurred. We know from what direction it had to have come in relation to the skull. What this unfortunately does not tell us is the position of her body at the time it happened. But we do know for instance that if she was standing, the assailant came down with the weapon from behind. If she was lying down, she would almost have to be lying on her stomach, and the assailant standing over her. You can apply the same to any other position you might want to imagine.
    Once again, excellent analysis and commentary, OTG! I had posted previously about the possibility of JonBenet being crouched down, either trying to escape being hit by the golf club, or perhaps she was found in a crouched or seated position, playing with a forbidden toy. I tend to think the former; that maybe JonBenet did by instinct what many of us do, turn away and try to hide (by getting lower to the ground) in an effort to escape a coming blow.

    From my post made on July 20, 2012:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...06&postcount=7

    "You'd only have to bring the club up, perhaps slightly more than perpendicular with the floor, then swing it down with speed; especially, if JonBenet was crouched down playing with a toy or trying to protect herself, and not standing at full height."

    I do not believe JonBenet was lying down because her face would have had to be directly into the pillow or ground, and she wouldn't be able to breathe. The direction of the crack shows shows JonBenet was hit from behind and above, with her head tilted down. Cynic's excellent work with a golf club shows it was the most likely weapon available in the house.

    The Ramseys might lie, but the application of physics and human anatomy do not. We are now closer to understanding how JonBenet received the fatal head blow thanks to your and Cynic's briliant posts. Thank you.

  8. #20

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    Thank you cynic and otg. Excellent work! Now I understand what I never was able to grasp before.

    Someone should let Cheif Kolar in on this. I'd love to hear what he had to say.

  9. #21

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    Yes, bravo, cynic and otg.

    Just...please tell me that the BPD and DAs, who spent $2 MILLION DOLLARS ON THIS CASE...had professionals actually do these experiments and know precisedly what caused this injury?

    Go ahead; lie to me.

    But this has me thinking: what if the flashlight was left on the counter ON PURPOSE. As a red herring?

    That would explain why the batteries were wiped down: if the Ramseys' fingerprints were on them, it couldn't have belonged to an intruder.

    So it was meant to confuse LE.

    And that's why Patsy claimed she didn't know it was theirs.

    Of course, it was always possible LE would figure out it belonged to the Ramseys, but maybe they were rolling the dice when they were staging, not knowing how all the many "clues" JR spoke about "left" by this clever creature would shake out, but hoping to confuse LE enough that the Ramseys could slide by.

    Which is exactly what happened.

    With help from Hunter and Lacy, of course.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Just...please tell me that the BPD and DAs, who spent $2 MILLION DOLLARS ON THIS CASE...had professionals actually do these experiments and know precisedly what caused this injury?

    Go ahead; lie to me.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The BPD has it all under control, KK. They have all the answers. Everything is ok. Now relax, KK... Relax.... Rest..........................

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  11. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The BPD has it all under control, KK. They have all the answers. Everything is ok. Now relax, KK... Relax.... Rest..........................

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thank you.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  12. #24

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    Did y'all do this already?

    I'm sure cynic can lay the actual photo over the graphic.... Me, I'm on vacay....
    Attached Images Attached Images  

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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