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  1. #49
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    Excellent work, cynic!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  2. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoomama View Post
    Yes, DeeDee that is a lot of ifs I realize. Just even suggesting this as a possible weapon changes my entire scenario of the dynamics for what happened. I'll not get into that. This was just a thought that came to me and I have not given it a whole bunch of time to gel...like where and what and who and when and why.
    Holding a golf club in one hand is not as easy as holding a baseball bat and flashlight which can be held in one hand, but which of these items would be on hand at a time like this and "where" exactly was JonBenét struck on the head - upstairs, or in the basement?

    I'm thinking the golf club would have to be held closer to the actual club head with two hands to make the impact of the blow, whereas one hand can hold the bat, torch, or a showerhead.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  3. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    Below I have attempted to depict the size and length of the fracture in relation to a skull of the same dimensions that a 6 year old skull would have.

    Awesome work and illustration, Cynic!

    IMHO, when I look at the skull fracture, I see the results of the downward driving force of a golf club's hard metal heel.
    Last edited by Cherokee; September 9, 2012, 2:02 am at Sun Sep 9 2:02:57 UTC 2012.

  4. #52

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    Yes, brilliant, cynic and otg. You both have truly given us a much more accurate idea of the placement of the fractures.

    I guess because of the photo of Dr. Spitz with that Maglite, I always thought the blow came from the right side. In that case, I wondered if the knob end of a baseball bat could have been used. The bats located outside the home were always suspicious to me, but of course that's because they were brought up so many times in LE interviews with the Ramseys and in the various books. We also have crime scene photos of at least one.

    But looking at these diagrams, and considering that the blow came from behind instead, I'm thinking...golf club. Had to be.

    Which would explain why JR wanted his golf clubs in the middle of winter, with his child lying in the morgue, wouldn't it?

    I would really love to know if anyone from LE actually looked inside the golf bags in the house. Also, I'd like to know if Pam took a golf bag out of the house, as per JR's instructions, in her "scortched earth" raid on the house--WITH HUNTER'S APPROVAL AND AID.

    Thanks so much, cynic, otg, and everyone who adds to this debate.

    Now, someone please convince me that all the medical experts who consulted on this case had no idea what made that fracture. The autopsy was done the next morning, on the 27th. That's when the fracture was found. Before that, nobody in LE even knew she had been bludgeoned. By that afternoon, LE should have known what to look for in the way of a weapon, right? And that would have been before Pam's raid, right?

    Okay, now I'm trying to remember the timeline of these things.

    At what point did Pam raid the home? I've been thinking it was a few days after the 26th.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
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    3 Dimensional

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  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Yes, brilliant, cynic and otg. You both have truly given us a much more accurate idea of the placement of the fractures.

    I guess because of the photo of Dr. Spitz with that Maglite, I always thought the blow came from the right side. In that case, I wondered if the knob end of a baseball bat could have been used. The bats located outside the home were always suspicious to me, but of course that's because they were brought up so many times in LE interviews with the Ramseys and in the various books. We also have crime scene photos of at least one.

    But looking at these diagrams, and considering that the blow came from behind instead, I'm thinking...golf club. Had to be.

    Which would explain why JR wanted his golf clubs in the middle of winter, with his child lying in the morgue, wouldn't it?

    I would really love to know if anyone from LE actually looked inside the golf bags in the house. Also, I'd like to know if Pam took a golf bag out of the house, as per JR's instructions, in her "scortched earth" raid on the house--WITH HUNTER'S APPROVAL AND AID.

    Thanks so much, cynic, otg, and everyone who adds to this debate.

    Now, someone please convince me that all the medical experts who consulted on this case had no idea what made that fracture. The autopsy was done the next morning, on the 27th. That's when the fracture was found. Before that, nobody in LE even knew she had been bludgeoned. By that afternoon, LE should have known what to look for in the way of a weapon, right? And that would have been before Pam's raid, right?

    Okay, now I'm trying to remember the timeline of these things.

    At what point did Pam raid the home? I've been thinking it was a few days after the 26th.
    I think it's in Kolar's book, that Pam did NOT successfully remove the golf bag that John wanted, since it was located in the basement and she did not gain access to that area of the house (surprised that someone actually stood up and said, "NO!" to a Ramsey family member! I know, she's an in-law, but still.). If Pam did not get the golf bag, I'm sure that everything was removed and examined, which means that the paint brush end was NOT there, nor was any of the material used to clean up JonBenet. Also sure that John Ramsey, knowing the weapon used, would have cleaned ALL of the golf clubs that night, so no evidence would have been there. Unless that club found outside, with fibers from the basement, really was the weapon...but LE surely would have been all over that if it were.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  6. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    I think it's in Kolar's book, that Pam did NOT successfully remove the golf bag that John wanted, since it was located in the basement and she did not gain access to that area of the house (surprised that someone actually stood up and said, "NO!" to a Ramsey family member! I know, she's an in-law, but still.). If Pam did not get the golf bag, I'm sure that everything was removed and examined, which means that the paint brush end was NOT there, nor was any of the material used to clean up JonBenet. Also sure that John Ramsey, knowing the weapon used, would have cleaned ALL of the golf clubs that night, so no evidence would have been there. Unless that club found outside, with fibers from the basement, really was the weapon...but LE surely would have been all over that if it were.
    We do have the lists from the warrants of what was collected by the crime scene techs, so I'll look there when I have a chance, to see if the golf bags/clubs were collected.

    I wish I could say "I'm sure" about seemingly logical gathering of evidence in this case, but alas, I lost faith long ago about anything logical or routine being done in this investigation.

    When I see things like what Jayelles did with the Bloomies, what Cherokee and Cina Wong did with their individual ransom note anaylses, what otg and cynic are doing here...throw in wombat's description of the science now available to actually determine the size and velocity of the weapon used in the head blow: I can't figure out how Boulder spent nearly $2 mil on this case and never did any of this.

    They should have had these answers LONG ago.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  7. #55

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    I found some interesting illustrations on youtube of various brain injury graphics, animated to some extent, which may help in this discussion.

    Here's a frame I captured from this video showing the brain impacting the skull after the blow:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=AD16-wwt9p0

    JB had some brain injury which I believe a surgical nurse who used to post here told us was like a contrecoup injury, which would have looked something like this, maybe?
    Attached Images Attached Images  

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #56

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    This in fact shows what acute subdural hematoma is in very simple terms: great graphic.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=qO16QXMxBLY

    This is a really interesting animated presentation explaining some of the brain injury described by Dr. Meyer in the autopsy report:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7x3j...eature=related

    Here are some screen shots I find extremely interesting from the last video because there is a time progression of this brain injury. I think we can see how JB's brain injury did take some time to build up the blood found at autopsy: though I have to say, this video is confusing, as it appears to entail two different brain injuries, and the number sequencing of the CT scans is out of sequence somehow...I have no idea....
    Attached Images Attached Images    

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    When I see things like what Jayelles did with the Bloomies, what Cherokee and Cina Wong did with their individual ransom note anaylses, what otg and cynic are doing here...throw in wombat's description of the science now available to actually determine the size and velocity of the weapon used in the head blow: I can't figure out how Boulder spent nearly $2 mil on this case and never did any of this.

    They should have had these answers LONG ago.
    They didn't want the answers long ago or now. That's why Kolar felt he had to write his book. When he tried to give them answers that matched the evidence, Mary Lacy shut him down. Hard. How dare Kolar follow the evidence to a scientific and logical conclusion instead of some airy-fairy, made-up intruder that was concocted to cover for the Ramseys! Why, the very nerve of that man! So Lacy had a fit and Kolar was out of there!

    The truth is not welcome in a well-spun tapestry of lies.

  10. #58

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    Yes, JonBenet had a contrecoup brain injury exactly opposite the impact of her skull fracture.

    That, along with all the other evidence, indicates JonBenet was hit from behind as her brain moved inside the braincase away from the force of the blow and then back.

    If JonBenet had been hit from the right side, any contrecoup injury would have been located exactly opposite that blow on the left side of her brain, not the front-left side where the contre-coup bruising was noted.

    Since we know the blow to JonBenet's head came from behind her and not the side, then I believe the bat as the weapon used on JonBenet has been eliminated. IMHO.

  11. #59

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    It occurs to me that we have a "missing link" here - when the blow created the hole in JonBenet's skull, it dislodged a piece of bone. What did that look like? Was it one piece, or a couple pieces, or shattered? That information would be very helpful. The dislodged pieces could still be in evidence, no?

    I think that if the blow came from a flashlight, the dislodged bone would be more likely to be in one piece, because the impact area would be larger and the bone failed around the edges of the impact zone. If golf club, the disloged bone might be more in pieces, since the stress in the middle of the impact would be greater than at the edges. No matter which, looking at that bone under the high-tech microscopes and other equipment we have now could reveal alot.

    I'm just saying this from analyzing structural failures, I'm no forensic scientist!

    Also, kudos to you, Cynic, for this awesome work.

  12. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    It occurs to me that we have a "missing link" here - when the blow created the hole in JonBenet's skull, it dislodged a piece of bone. What did that look like? Was it one piece, or a couple pieces, or shattered? That information would be very helpful. The dislodged pieces could still be in evidence, no?

    I think that if the blow came from a flashlight, the dislodged bone would be more likely to be in one piece, because the impact area would be larger and the bone failed around the edges of the impact zone. If golf club, the disloged bone might be more in pieces, since the stress in the middle of the impact would be greater than at the edges. No matter which, looking at that bone under the high-tech microscopes and other equipment we have now could reveal alot.

    I'm just saying this from analyzing structural failures, I'm no forensic scientist!

    Also, kudos to you, Cynic, for this awesome work.
    Reading the autopsy report, it sounds like it was one piece: go to page 7.

    http://hosted.ap.org/specials/intera...ey_autopsy.pdf

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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