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  1. #109

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    Count me in with those who believe the blanket was taken from the basement dryer. The pink nightgown was probably stuck to it by static cling and Patsy/John didn't notice it.

  2. #110
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    Default wombat

    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    Count me in with those who believe the blanket was taken from the basement dryer. The pink nightgown was probably stuck to it by static cling and Patsy/John didn't notice it.
    That's exactly how I see it.

  3. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Well, that was Steve Thomas' scenario, Elle, and many of us thought he had the most case information at the time, so it seemed reasonable. I always had my doubts about the force necessary to crack JonBenet's skull like it was - I just couldn't see how that would happen in a bathroom, with Patsy as the person doing the throwing. I also simply do not think that hole in JonBenet's skull would be caused in that scenario - that was a focused blow. A child would still have some degree of resistance to being flung around, even if caught off-guard.
    This was the first thing I ever thought of, heymom. Patsy in a rage throwing JonBenét around. Many of us thought this. Delmar England and Steve Thomas too! I still see Patsy in a rage because of all she had to do that morning. Can't get this scene out of my head right now! When this one vanishes, the one of Burke appears with the flashlight coming up behind JonBenét sitting at the table. To see the golf club here, I have to have Burke holding the club more than halfway up the shaft with two hands. This I find awkward because of the length of the shaft! Yes! He may have his own clubs but they are not handy in the kitchen! Round and round I go!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  4. #112
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    Count me in with those who believe the blanket was taken from the basement dryer. The pink nightgown was probably stuck to it by static cling and Patsy/John didn't notice it.
    I believe this too, Wombat. Sincerely hope you are keeping well.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  5. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I think that if the person who is a trained LE who has seen all the evidence and read all the Grand Jury transcripts thinks the head blow happened in the breakfast room/kitchen area then I'm going to listen to him.
    I agree. This is what persuaded me that it happened there rather than in the basement. What kind of evidence might it be that would indicate this? Does anyone have any speculation?

  6. #114

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    Thanks for your responses, everyone.

    As for Meyer breaking the rigor to get a photo of the bruise on her face--which lately as I've worked with it, looks like it came from a ring, with "prong" points, but that probably is just my imagination: y'all could be right. I guess what I'm wondering is if her arms were in that position and we've been misled for some other reason to think they were otherwise. The "drawing" we have came from a TV show, after all.

    But maybe breaking rigor isn't the violent action I imagine it to be. I have no personal experience there.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
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  7. #115

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    DeeDee, that was what I was thinking until I looked up livor mortis online. If there were only a 20 minute window after death to move the body, then that is an important factor in determining who strangled her, IMO.

    But that 20 minute window after which livor mortis starts being evidence that she wasn't moved after that? That's not the story I'm getting from forensic sites, etc. The links I provided say something else. So I'm just more confused.

    Look, I'm totally out of my depth here, I admit it. So thanks for explaining patiently, but I'm a dull student, and I apologize for that.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #116

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    So something popped out of my head this morning when I woke up.

    If only it had been "Here's what happened!" [Monk]

    But it was back to "where" the head blow happened, so here goes.

    Let's say for whatever reason, one of the Ramseys hit JB with a golf club, Maglite, whatever, in the kitchen/breakfast area/living room.

    She goes down.

    If her parents were still up, if this were right after they got home, the kids eating pineapple, etc., what happened next?

    She's got a head injury that is fatal, but how do they know that?

    Did she convulse? Everyone who works with such injuries has told us there's no way to know.

    But...

    Maybe that's why someone got her pillow--to put under her head while she was still alive, a blanket to keep her warm...before she was strangled.

    Not knowing what to do...can't take her to the ER because they'll find out she's been sexually assaulted? Make her comfortable...while we think, make some calls...?

    An hour or two until she's strangled. Blood seeping into her skull and swelling of the brain. Pineapple digested during this time.

    Thoughts?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    So something popped out of my head this morning when I woke up.

    If only it had been "Here's what happened!" [Monk]

    But it was back to "where" the head blow happened, so here goes.

    Let's say for whatever reason, one of the Ramseys hit JB with a golf club, Maglite, whatever, in the kitchen/breakfast area/living room.

    She goes down.

    If her parents were still up, if this were right after they got home, the kids eating pineapple, etc., what happened next?

    She's got a head injury that is fatal, but how do they know that?

    Did she convulse? Everyone who works with such injuries has told us there's no way to know.

    But...

    Maybe that's why someone got her pillow--to put under her head while she was still alive, a blanket to keep her warm...before she was strangled.

    Not knowing what to do...can't take her to the ER because they'll find out she's been sexually assaulted? Make her comfortable...while we think, make some calls...?

    Thoughts?
    I think that's feasible. I tend to believe they made her comfortable with, at least, a blanket as they discussed about whether or not to call an ambulance, etc., etc.

    Didn't I just read, on a thread somewhere here, where Meyer (upon arriving at the house) stated there was no evidence of blood in the ear canals and nasal passages? I just don't think she bled from either the nose or ears (surely they would've determined that) and, if that's the case, we'd have to explain the blood on the pillow case.

  10. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    I think that's feasible. I tend to believe they made her comfortable with, at least, a blanket as they discussed about whether or not to call an ambulance, etc., etc.

    Didn't I just read, on a thread somewhere here, where Meyer (upon arriving at the house) stated there was no evidence of blood in the ear canals and nasal passages? I just don't think she bled from either the nose or ears (surely they would've determined that) and, if that's the case, we'd have to explain the blood on the pillow case.
    There was blood on her face: a dark-tinged mucous. You can see it in photos.

    And Steve Thomas said her blood had dropped onto the upper sleeve of her top, right side, which is consistent with the drizzle down the right side of her face, turned to the right in rigor.

    Zoomama has written about this same idea of the blanket being used to "keep her warm" today, I just read on the other thread about JR's statement. Seems we are all having a confluence of ideas...so maybe we're getting somewhere.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Maybe that's why someone got her pillow--to put under her head while she was still alive, a blanket to keep her warm...before she was strangled.

    Not knowing what to do...can't take her to the ER because they'll find out she's been sexually assaulted? Make her comfortable...while we think, make some calls...?
    Yeah, it makes more sense that they'd bring her pillow and blanket to her at that point rather than carrying her to her room, because they'd probably be afraid to move her.

    It's really hard for me to imagine deciding not to call for an ambulance. Even with the sexual abuse I'd be so terrified for my daughter and want to save her no matter what. I wonder if it was just so obvious that she was beyond help. But how would they know? Did Doc Beuf make a house call?

  12. #120

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    If Burke put her in the wine cellar he would have had to put a chair in front of the door to stand on it in order to flip the wooden latch so he could open it.
    Something about that fact and the absolutely insane story John Ramsey tells about the chair being in front of the train room door are tweaking my hinky meter.
    Maybe the chair was in front of or around the wine cellar door, which would be a perfect indication of who opened that door that night, and John moved it away to in front of the train room door and then got stuck in an interview trying to explain it because what he said made no sense at all.
    He may have moved it when he went down to the basement the morning of the 26th after he read and probably pegged that ransom note to Patsy in his mind, and again when some think he found Jonbenets body. He told Stewert Long he found her at about 11:00AM.

    ETA: Sorry I posted this before I read the thread and it's not with the point of discussion right now. Instead of deleting it I'll add to it and get with the program, so to speak.
    I read some of koldkases' links she posted the other day about head injuries and I think I remember reading that there is a foaming from the mouth. That could explain what that is dried up on the side of her face.
    I read it here: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...reply&p=187045

    Here are some forensic pathology sources which explain the ligature and neck injuries: the first link is very readable with no graphic photos; the second is more technical and has graphic photos of various injuries and autopsy dissections which you may see while scrolling to the sections related to this case.

    http://www.corpus-delicti.com/ligature.html

    Be forewarned: the following link has extremely graphic autopsy photos of dissections, as well as damage to bodies done in ways you may not want to even think about, much less see.

    WARNING: GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS AT THIS LINK

    Look for p. 267, "Asphyxia", as this is a partial chapter--it's for book sales:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=6bW...page&q&f=false

    Also at the second link, head injuries are described in great detail beginning on p. 323 under "Head Injury." Included are types of brain injury and skull fractures.



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