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  1. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pearlsim View Post
    This is what I see happening, too. I'm not sure if Burke went to get Patsy or she happened to still be up and heard enough of a commotion that she came downstairs. Actually, I do think Patsy was still up - no doubt, getting things ready for the trip then next day. I don't think she ever went to bed that night.
    No way could Patsy have gone to bed and be a big part of this crime cover-up Pearlsim! She needed all those hours for the writing of the ransom note etc. etc. etc.

    Were the new golf clubs ever checked out, I wonder (?).
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  2. #14

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    1. I don't see nor have I heard about any fully unwrapped present that was suppose to go to Jenny in Atlanta. All I see and hear about are partially unwrapped presents in the basement, maybe some for Burkes birthday, maybe some going to Atlanta. A partially unwrapped present is not going to yeild forth a package of panties .In order to have gotten into a present meant for Jenny in Atlanta there would have to be a fully unwrapped and opened up box in the wine cellar. And we've never heard of one.

    2. Something happened either in conjunction with the head blow for Patsy to think it and treat it as not merely an accident. I believe an accident she would have called 911 over. There is a reason 911 wasn't called and it has to be because of something Patsy witnessed at the time of the accident. I don't believe she would not have called 911 because she knew of sexual abuse. She took Jonbenet to the doctor way too many times for me to believe that. And yes, I know JB was never examined "down there", but what would Patsy have said or done faced with that prospect? Would she have said no because she wouldn't want eveidence of abuse found? That could be easily done. So IMO there is some reason Patsy didn't call 911 when Jonebent was found or shown to her and instead did a 180 and staged a murder. What did she see at that time?

  3. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    1. I don't see nor have I heard about any fully unwrapped present that was suppose to go to Jenny in Atlanta. All I see and hear about are partially unwrapped presents in the basement, maybe some for Burkes birthday, maybe some going to Atlanta. A partially unwrapped present is not going to yeild forth a package of panties .In order to have gotten into a present meant for Jenny in Atlanta there would have to be a fully unwrapped and opened up box in the wine cellar. And we've never heard of one.

    2. Something happened either in conjunction with the head blow for Patsy to think it and treat it as not merely an accident. I believe an accident she would have called 911 over. There is a reason 911 wasn't called and it has to be because of something Patsy witnessed at the time of the accident. I don't believe she would not have called 911 because she knew of sexual abuse. She took Jonbenet to the doctor way too many times for me to believe that. And yes, I know JB was never examined "down there", but what would Patsy have said or done faced with that prospect? Would she have said no because she wouldn't want evidence of abuse found? That could be easily done. So IMO there is some reason Patsy didn't call 911 when Jonebent was found or shown to her and instead did a 180 and staged a murder. What did she see at that time?
    Patsy knew where the the Bloomies were, so she could have either handed them to John or opened the package and taken out the correct day's underwear and then slipped the rest back. It would take a little finessing but that is the kind of detail I would expect from Patsy - but then, the question remains...Why not just go back upstairs and get JonBenet's own underwear from her drawer? Why go to all that trouble to put JonBenet in underwear 2 sizes too big for her?

    As for Patsy not calling 911, I do think it's likely that she knew of the abuse of JonBenet, and was trying to protect or save the person who did it. Maybe John told her that if they called 911, JonBenet would be examined thoroughly because of it being a domestic accident or done by her brother. Or maybe they were afraid Burke would confess. I think the scenario that someone brought up - that Patsy and John wanted Burke to think someone had kidnapped JonBenet AFTER he struck her, so he wouldn't feel guilty and responsible, but could let go of his part of her death - is quite likely. Once they had decided to protect Burke, then all the rest of the cover-up makes sense, even the sudden plans to fly to Atlanta. If they were out of the state, they'd have a lot more time to get their stories straight and keep Burke from talking to anyone, and get more lawyering done.

    Maybe Patsy put John up to the cover-up - I mean, I can see Patsy going hysterical and begging John not to call the authorities because "Burke didn't mean to do it!" After all, although John said that they weren't angry at the killer, he did use the term "monster" a few times, so I think he really was angry at Burke but couldn't let his emotions mess up the scene that they had created. Thus also the anger at Burke's question, "We're not talking to YOU!" heard in the background of the 911 phone call.

    I wonder what sort of relationship John has had with Burke, all these years in between....
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  4. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    1. I don't see nor have I heard about any fully unwrapped present that was suppose to go to Jenny in Atlanta. All I see and hear about are partially unwrapped presents in the basement, maybe some for Burkes birthday, maybe some going to Atlanta. A partially unwrapped present is not going to yeild forth a package of panties .In order to have gotten into a present meant for Jenny in Atlanta there would have to be a fully unwrapped and opened up box in the wine cellar. And we've never heard of one.
    The reason we've never "heard" of one is because the package of size 12 panties wasn't there by the time investigators arrived.

    The package of panties, missing the Wednesday pair, wasn't turned over to Boulder LE until more than FIVE YEARS LATER after the Ramseys had moved to Atlanta.

    "It was reported in mid-2003 that "investigators never even asked to see the other panties in the matching set her mother bought her (though the DA's office now has them, Wood says)." (Clay Evans, "We're Failing JonBenet" Boulder Daily Camera, June 15, 2003)

    Patsy claimed the oversized Bloomies package was also kept in JonBenet's bathroom drawer, but we know Patsy lied a lot, and if it was there, why didn't investigators find it on December 26th & 27th? In addition, if the package of Bloomies really was in the basement, along with other Christmas presents (that didn't get mailed in time), it would make sense why Patsy would say they were in JonBenet's bathroom drawer. Patsy was trying her best to keep everything about that night upstairs. IMHO, it was another one of Patsy's efforts at misdirection away from the truth.

    ---------------------

    August 2000 Patsy Ramsey Atlanta Interview

    0078
    1 Q. The underwear that she was
    2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you
    3 know where they come from as far as what
    4 store?
    5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.
    6 Q. Who purchased those?
    7 A. I did.
    8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased
    9 them?
    10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.

    [skip]

    22 A. Well, I think that I bought a
    23 package of the -- they came in a package of
    24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
    25 I think I bought a package to give to my


    0081
    1 niece.
    2 Q. Which niece was that?
    3 A. Jenny Davis.
    4 Q. They came in, if you recall, do
    5 you remember that they come in kind of a
    6 plastic see-through plastic container.
    7 A. Right.
    8 Q. They are rolled up?
    9 A. Yes.
    10 Q. So if I understand you correctly,
    11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your
    12 niece, and one for JonBenet?


    [skip]

    0093

    11 Q. And I will just state a fact
    12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
    13 taken out of, by the police, out of
    14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
    15 that where she kept -

    16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
    17 Q. -- where you were describing that
    18 they were just put in that drawer?
    19 A. Yes.
    20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
    21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?

    22 Would that have been about the size pair of
    23 panties that she wore when she was six years
    24 old?
    25 A. I would say more like six to

    0094
    1 eight. There were probably some in there
    2 that were too small.
    3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
    4 A. Not typically, no.


    -------------------------

  5. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Patsy knew where the the Bloomies were, so she could have either handed them to John or opened the package and taken out the correct day's underwear and then slipped the rest back. It would take a little finessing but that is the kind of detail I would expect from Patsy - but then, the question remains...Why not just go back upstairs and get her own underwear from her drawer? Why go to all that trouble to put JonBenet in underwear 2 sizes too big for her?
    Because the size 12 Bloomies were already downstairs in the basement, along with other presents for extended family members. When they re-dressed JonBenet, they probably weren't thinking about how much bigger the unlaundered size 12 panties would be. Cotton panties shrink when they are washed, and I'm sure John and Patsy weren't thinking of such details when they were trying to stage the crime scene. I believe they were more interested in putting JonBenet in Wednesday panties, like the ones she HAD been wearing, than the correct size.

    Looking back, it seems ludicrous to us, but at the time, they were just trying to save Burke and their family reputation. Remember, it wasn't just JonBenet's death they were having to cover-up, but also her previous molestation.

    I wonder what sort of relationship John has had with Burke, all these years in between....
    From private reports it's very distant and superficial.

  6. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    There were other gifts wrapped in the room where JonBenet was found, Elle. They had the paper peeled away from them. Now, granted, that was likely also where the Bloomies package was, and whoever looked for the panties may have unwrapped a couple of other packages before the Bloomies were found, but I'm thinking the lure of unwrapped presents is what drew the 2 kids down to the cellar in the first place. Maybe Burke went down first and started unwrapping the presents, and then JonBenet found him and said she would tell. She turned around, started to leave - he runs after her - maybe grabs her shirt from behind, picks up a golf club and WHACK - hits her on the head. She falls. He waits to see if she gets back up. She doesn't. He gets a train track piece, pokes her with it. Pokes her in another spot. She still doesn't move. He goes and gets Mommy and the night is spent both mourning for their lost child and working to protect the still living one.
    Excellent. Also, IMO this explains why the Hi-Tek shoe impression was on the wine cellar floor. JB would have gone to bed before Burke, or at least been dressed for bed before him. Burke was nine and certainly dressed himself for bed. So, pretended to his parents he was going to bed, and then he snuck downstairs with his shoes still on, and started messing with the presents that were on hold for the "second Christmas" in Charlevoix. JB, with no slippers, followed him; maybe she already knew about the presents in the wine cellar, maybe not. She could easily have said "I'm telling" and get whacked over the head.

  7. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    Excellent. Also, IMO this explains why the Hi-Tek shoe impression was on the wine cellar floor. JB would have gone to bed before Burke, or at least been dressed for bed before him. Burke was nine and certainly dressed himself for bed. So, pretended to his parents he was going to bed, and then he snuck downstairs with his shoes still on, and started messing with the presents that were on hold for the "second Christmas" in Charlevoix. JB, with no slippers, followed him; maybe she already knew about the presents in the wine cellar, maybe not. She could easily have said "I'm telling" and get whacked over the head.
    I had wondered the same thing in an earlier post:

    ----------

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...2&postcount=52

    It could be that JonBenet went to sleep in the other twin bed in Burke's room after she accidentally wet her bed, and when she didn't find Burke there, she went downstairs and followed him to the basement. It's also possible JonBenet found Burke opening his birthday presents early, and threatened to tell, or they got into a fight about some of the toys. They were both most likely exhausted from getting up early for Christmas, and being on the go all day long, as well as excited about the trip to Charlevoix the next morning. Tempers may have frayed.

    ----------

    The trigger for Burke's rage could have been something "small." Isn't that what it seems the most horrendous family fights are about? The little things?

  8. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    I do remember seeing golf clubs in a box as a Christmas gift recently; therefore they may still have been upstairs ....
    Elle, you've mentioned in several posts that there were new golf clubs given as a Christmas present, but I cannot find a reference to that or a photo of golf clubs in a box. Can you help me out? Where did you read about there being a new set of golf clubs for a Christmas present?

    Thanks in advance.

  9. #21
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    1. I don't see nor have I heard about any fully unwrapped present that was suppose to go to Jenny in Atlanta. All I see and hear about are partially unwrapped presents in the basement, maybe some for Burkes birthday, maybe some going to Atlanta. A partially unwrapped present is not going to yeild forth a package of panties .In order to have gotten into a present meant for Jenny in Atlanta there would have to be a fully unwrapped and opened up box in the wine cellar. And we've never heard of one.

    2. Something happened either in conjunction with the head blow for Patsy to think it and treat it as not merely an accident. I believe an accident she would have called 911 over. There is a reason 911 wasn't called and it has to be because of something Patsy witnessed at the time of the accident. I don't believe she would not have called 911 because she knew of sexual abuse. She took Jonbenet to the doctor way too many times for me to believe that. And yes, I know JB was never examined "down there", but what would Patsy have said or done faced with that prospect? Would she have said no because she wouldn't want eveidence of abuse found? That could be easily done. So IMO there is some reason Patsy didn't call 911 when Jonebent was found or shown to her and instead did a 180 and staged a murder. What did she see at that time?
    I don't know that anything had to have happened. Patsy saw that her daughter was dead and she saw that her son caused that death. It could be that she was aware of JonBenet's prior sexual abuse but, even if she wasn't, this was a woman who was all about image. She would've had to realize how "messy" this would all be and how Burke would be branded a monster for killing his sister. JonBenet was gone and there was nothing that could be done to save her but I believe Patsy, in deep shock and grief, probably felt that she couldn't lose her only other child.

    I've thought a lot about Patsy since reading Kolar's book. Let me state right off the bat, I will NEVER excuse her and John's terrible behavior in throwing innocent people under the Ramsey "We're Too Good to Have Done This" Gospel Train, but I do feel a certain sympathy for her when I think of those terrible hours of realizing JonBenet was dead. From a probably greatly anticipated trip on the Big Red Boat to spending all night working over the battered body of your baby girl - whew, that's pretty hard to digest.

  10. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    Elle, you've mentioned in several posts that there were new golf clubs given as a Christmas present, but I cannot find a reference to that or a photo of golf clubs in a box. Can you help me out? Where did you read about there being a new set of golf clubs for a Christmas present?

    Thanks in advance.
    I'm sure it was Koldkase who posted the photo, Cherokee, not too long ago!
    I'll look through them again.

    KK had a closeup of these clubs still in a box. Hope I haven't made a mistake Cherokee (?). I'm going through her photographs right now but so far I don't see the box I'm talking about. I'm sure it was blue.

    Cherokee, please don't waste your time looking just in case I got mixed up while looking at the photos KK posted recently. I'll go over
    her recent photos.
    Last edited by Elle_1; August 22, 2012, 3:53 pm at Wed Aug 22 15:53:28 UTC 2012.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  11. #23

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    I don't know about the new golf clubs, but there was a plethora of golf clubs in that house. The ones I know of are the three bags shown in the photos below, the loose ones in the closet we found out about recently in the Daily Beast video, and the one putter I've heard several times was found outside the house. All but the one outside were in the basement.



  12. #24
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    Originally Posted by Cherokee
    Elle, you've mentioned in several posts that there were new golf clubs given as a Christmas present, but I cannot find a reference to that or a photo of golf clubs in a box. Can you help me out? Where did you read about there being a new set of golf clubs for a Christmas present?

    Thanks in advance.


    Thank you for asking me this Cherokee. I may have even innocently mixed in the golf clubs with the Christmas present conversation. I was looking at the photos of JonBenét sitting beside another photo of some black and white boxes, and I wonder if I screwed up(?). I will do my best to be more careful in future.

    otg

    I was thinking I had seen children's golf clubs. :(

    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.



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