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  1. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    I don't know about the new golf clubs, but there was a plethora of golf clubs in that house. The ones I know of are the three bags shown in the photos below, the loose ones in the closet we found out about recently in the Daily Beast video, and the one putter I've heard several times was found outside the house. All but the one outside were in the basement.


    Thanks, OTG! Those are the golf clubs I was thinking of, besides the loose clubs in the train room closet we saw in the basement video (of which we now have screen captures thanks to KK). http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...93&postcount=2

    So all of the golf clubs were in the basement except for the one found outside.

  2. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post


    Thank you for asking me this Cherokee. I may have even innocently mixed in the golf clubs with the Christmas present conversation. I was looking at the photos of JonBenét sitting beside another photo of some black and white boxes, and I wonder if I screwed up(?). I will do my best to be more careful in future.

    otg

    I was thinking I had seen children's golf clubs. :(

    It's okay, Elle. It's easy to get confused with all the information out there and all the many posts that have been made.

  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    Because the size 12 Bloomies were already downstairs in the basement, along with other presents for extended family members. When they re-dressed JonBenet, they probably weren't thinking about how much bigger the unlaundered size 12 panties would be. Cotton panties shrink when they are washed, and I'm sure John and Patsy weren't thinking of such details when they were trying to stage the crime scene. I believe they were more interested in putting JonBenet in Wednesday panties, like the ones she HAD been wearing, than the correct size.

    Looking back, it seems ludicrous to us, but at the time, they were just trying to save Burke and their family reputation. Remember, it wasn't just JonBenet's death they were having to cover-up, but also her previous molestation.
    Okay, tell me this. She had already been redressed before she was strangled, and when she died, from the strangulation, she wet her clothing all over again. Why did they redress her before they strangled her? Did they not know that people release their bladder contents (sometimes, bowels) when they die? Was it because there was blood in her underwear before she was changed? Maybe a LOT of blood? If we could find those panties (I'm sure they were destroyed/disposed of as soon as the cover-up started), if LE had found them, a lot more questions would have been asked, I feel certain.

    Maybe by that time, they felt they couldn't hide/get rid of/destroy yet one more set of clothing, and they had plumb run out of Wednesday Bloomies in any case.

    And about those Wednesday Bloomies...Why was it so important that she was wearing the same day panties? Did someone see JonBenet in those panties at the Whites' house? I suppose that someone may have helped her in the bathroom...If so, then it would look very suspicious if she turned up dead wearing a different pair from her drawer...After her parents said they put her to bed that night and never heard another peep out of her...

    This underwear thing has me really puzzled. LE never followed through on anything, but the Ramseys were thinking ahead of them and trying to close all the open loose ends to their story. I just don't know why the underwear would have been such an issue.

    You said they weren't thinking of details when they staged the crime scene, but putting her into the same day panties WAS a detail, that John would not have thought of, but Patsy would have. Although she played stupid for LE when they interviewed her, I believe she knew what JonBenet was wearing, whether or not she had bathed, etc. Patsy was anything but a lazy mother - she was a stage mother, and those types are not known for being relaxed about details.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Okay, tell me this. She had already been redressed before she was strangled, and when she died, from the strangulation, she wet her clothing all over again. Why did they redress her before they strangled her? Did they not know that people release their bladder contents (sometimes, bowels) when they die? Was it because there was blood in her underwear before she was changed? Maybe a LOT of blood? If we could find those panties (I'm sure they were destroyed/disposed of as soon as the cover-up started), if LE had found them, a lot more questions would have been asked, I feel certain.

    Maybe by that time, they felt they couldn't hide/get rid of/destroy yet one more set of clothing, and they had plumb run out of Wednesday Bloomies in any case.

    And about those Wednesday Bloomies...Why was it so important that she was wearing the same day panties? Did someone see JonBenet in those panties at the Whites' house? I suppose that someone may have helped her in the bathroom...If so, then it would look very suspicious if she turned up dead wearing a different pair from her drawer...After her parents said they put her to bed that night and never heard another peep out of her...

    This underwear thing has me really puzzled. LE never followed through on anything, but the Ramseys were thinking ahead of them and trying to close all the open loose ends to their story. I just don't know why the underwear would have been such an issue.

    You said they weren't thinking of details when they staged the crime scene, but putting her into the same day panties WAS a detail, that John would not have thought of, but Patsy would have. Although she played stupid for LE when they interviewed her, I believe she knew what JonBenet was wearing, whether or not she had bathed, etc. Patsy was anything but a lazy mother - she was a stage mother, and those types are not known for being relaxed about details.
    I didn't say they weren't thinking of details; I said they possibly weren't thinking of THAT specific detail - that unwashed size 12 panties would be a lot bigger on JonBenet than a washed pair.

    I know they thought of many details as they tried to make the crime scene believeable, but there is no way they could think of everything. That's one way LE can tell if a crime scene is staged or not.

    Of course, it's just speculation on my part as to why they chose the oversized Bloomies because I have no way of knowing (at this point) WHY they chose to do anything they did as part of the cover-up and staging. As a parent, I would have been in such shock and grief, I don't think I could have thought of any detail, much less how to stage a crime scene, but the Ramseys obviously had a driving force to keep them on task - the saving of Burke and their family reputation.

    From the evidence we know, and from the autopsy report, it appears to me that they had already wiped down and re-dressed JonBenet BEFORE the ligature strangulation. It's conceivable they thought she was already dead, and whoever did the cover-up molestation with the missing part of the paintbrush had caused some bleeding into JonBenet's underwear. So she was changed and wiped down (there were fibers from John's shirt found in the crotch of her underwear), and then she was placed on her stomach for the ligature. When it was pulled tight, JonBenet finally died, possibly to the surprise of the stager (who either didn't know or think about bladder/bowel release upon a death), and a small amount of urine was released into the oversized undies, the long-johns and onto the carpet in front of the "wine cellar" door.

    It could have been the urine was such a small amount, the stager didn't even notice as he picked up JonBenet and placed her in the white blanket. IMHO, that's why there is both blood and urine stains in the oversized underwear found on JonBenet, but only urine on the long-johns. A tiny amount of blood must have leaked from JonBenet's vaginal opening AFTER the urine release and AFTER she was moved from being on her stomach on the carpet. In fact, the act of moving her could have caused the extra bit of blood to leak out. That's also why the urine release didn't wash away the tiny amount of blood in JonBenet's underwear. It happened BEFORE the subsequent blood seep.

    The stager had thought they had cleaned up all the blood on JonBenet's lower extremities previous to the ligature strangulation, and they had gotten rid of the panties originally worn by JonBenet. But the urine release upon death, and then the tiny amount of blood leakage from JonBenet's vagina after that, ended up causing stains on the oversized, size 12 panties in which she had been redressed.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post


    Thank you for asking me this Cherokee. I may have even innocently mixed in the golf clubs with the Christmas present conversation. I was looking at the photos of JonBenét sitting beside another photo of some black and white boxes, and I wonder if I screwed up(?). I will do my best to be more careful in future.

    otg

    I was thinking I had seen children's golf clubs. :(

    Perfectly understandable, Elle. With all the clubs they had, I doubt they could keep up with them all.

    Needless to say, there were plenty of potential shillelaghs all over the basement.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    Perfectly understandable, Elle. With all the clubs they had, I doubt they could keep up with them all.

    Needless to say, there were plenty of potential shillelaghs all over the basement.
    No kidding!

    And I had another thought after seeing the photos you posted.

    The two golf club bags in the basement hallway have head covers on the clubs, but the bag of clubs in the other room (next to the storage boxes) does not, and I doubt if the loose clubs in the "train room," with the heads on the floor, had covers either.

    If Burke picked up a golf club in a rage to hit JonBenet, I seriously doubt he would have taken the time to remove the head cover from the golf club! Therefore, the golf club that was used had to have come from either that single bag in the one basement room, or from the loose clubs in the "train room."

    By photo comparison, can we place that single golf club bag in a particular room in the basement, or do you already know what room it is from?
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  7. #31
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    The head covers go on the woods, not the irons. So not all of the clubs are covered. In fact, the putters fit the shape of the hole in JonBenet's skull and since those are not covered, they would be readily available without removing the cover.

    In that little storage room, are we SURE those are golf club handles? I am thinking that from the photo you just put up, it looks more like curtain rods. Golf clubs have grips on the ends, not just bare metal.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    In that little storage room, are we SURE those are golf club handles? I am thinking that from the photo you just put up, it looks more like curtain rods. Golf clubs have grips on the ends, not just bare metal.
    IMHO, those ARE black rubber grips at the end of the metal rods. I'll circle them in a photo and post it for you.
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  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    The head covers go on the woods, not the irons. So not all of the clubs are covered. In fact, the putters fit the shape of the hole in JonBenet's skull and since those are not covered, they would be readily available without removing the cover.
    Ha ha, shows what I know about golf! I was looking at the big black mitts on the golf clubs in the cellar hallway and didn't see the small metal golf club heads poking up out of the one bag until you mentioned it.

  10. #34

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    Here are two more screen captures KK did of the "train room" video that shows the golf clubs more clearly.
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  11. #35

    Default Why have so many golf clubs anyway?

    I guess this isn't so important, but why would John Ramsey need so many golf clubs? I guess one set might have been Patsy's, but still.

    All this explains JR's overheard utterance - Did you get my golf clubs - when they were getting out of town.

    Also, I wonder, if your son had whacked his sister on the head with a golf club a little while back, would you have so many clubs laying around? They didn't pay attention with what was important with those kids, did they?

  12. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    Ha ha, shows what I know about golf! I was looking at the big black mitts on the golf clubs in the cellar hallway and didn't see the small metal golf club heads poking up out of the one bag until you mentioned it.
    Yeah, I don't play but my son and husband have clubs. They almost never play but we have the sets. Sometimes when the weather is nice I will go along and drive the golf cart, which is fun.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!



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