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  1. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    Patsy wouldn't have had to re-wrap anything, partially or not. She simply partially UN-wrapped some boxes till she found the ones with the panties and left it. The police found it that way. The panties couldn't have been in the drawer for two reasons- first, these were part of a 7-panty set. NO other size 12s were found in her drawer or anywhere else in the house. There would have had to be at least SOME of them in her drawer. The OTHER (and more likely reason) is that the REST of the 6 pairs were returned to LE STILL IN THE PACKAGE 5 years later- why would they put only that ONE pair in her drawer?
    We already KNOW Patsy admitted buying them as a gift for an older child. And she admitted she had not yet mailed that's child's gifts to her, and planned to do so when she returned from her trip, so we know they were in the house.
    DeeDee, I hadn't yet read your post when I also replied to Karen.

    Thanks for your excellent explanation of what I was thinking and trying to say. Hopefully, your words will make more sense than mine must have earlier.

  2. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    You noticed that too! He's got more there than his golfing partner does.

    But seriously...


    Article was written in 2006, says he won the putter two decades earlier, so he certainly would have had it in 1996. No one could be so callous as to continue using something that was used to kill his daughter -- could he?
    I had the same thought, OTG. Apparently, when you're John Ramsey, you can compartmentalize anything and everything.

    Reading the whole article, John talks about how he was a caddie for his dad when he was younger. I think golf was a Ramsey family tradition and John loved it so much, he wasn't about to give it up for any reason. I mean, obviously John wanted his golf clubs retrieved in the middle of winter only a day or so after his little girl was murdered in his own home. Now THAT'S dedication, don't you think? (said with tongue firmly in cheek)

  3. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    They sure don't look like my golf clubs, girls!
    I do think Heymom may be right about those golf clubs being Burke's youth set. That's why they're not all nice and neat in a big bag.

    I'm guessing one of the big golf bags in the cellar hall is John's and the other is Patsy's.

    The single bag in the storage room by the laundry could have belonged to John Andrew (he was old enough to have a bigger set of clubs to play with his dad), or maybe it was an old set of John's they were saving for Burke to use.

    It's interesting when you read the article that it says John was using an old bag with the handle missing and none of his golf clubs had covers. The story really paints John as being on hard times six months after Patsy died. That may have been why John claimed to have only played six times that year (if you believe that) because, at the time, he couldn't afford the greens fees.

  4. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    Patsy wouldn't have had to re-wrap anything, partially or not. She simply partially UN-wrapped some boxes till she found the ones with the panties and left it. The police found it that way. The panties couldn't have been in the drawer for two reasons- first, these were part of a 7-panty set. NO other size 12s were found in her drawer or anywhere else in the house. There would have had to be at least SOME of them in her drawer. The OTHER (and more likely reason) is that the REST of the 6 pairs were returned to LE STILL IN THE PACKAGE 5 years later- why would they put only that ONE pair in her drawer?
    We already KNOW Patsy admitted buying them as a gift for an older child. And she admitted she had not yet mailed that's child's gifts to her, and planned to do so when she returned from her trip, so we know they were in the house.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    Why? And if you believe a boy did the changing of the panties, then how did he get her up several flights of stairs to her room and then back down to the basement? Or do you believe the head injury occured upstairs in her bedroom?



    Either you've misunderstood something I've said, or I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here.

    Let's try again. I don't believe "Patsy unwrapped a present, dug out the panties and then re-wrapped the gift, leaving it partially wrapped that night." That DOES strain common sense, and I would never think or post that.

    I think it's possible Patsy could have taken the package of size 12 Bloomies meant for Jenny Davis that were located with the rest of the Christmas presents, removed the Wednesday panties, and either used them herself to redress JonBenet or gave them to John to redress JonBenet.

    I don't know if the package was already wrapped or not. It might not have been. If it was, then Patsy unwrapped it and left it that way. I never said Patsy tried to RE-WRAP it. I don't remember anyone else saying that, but maybe they did. Somehow, that package of Bloomies did not end up in the evidence removed from the house, but was delivered to the Boulder DA's office five years later after allegedly being found in a box in the Ramsey's house in Atlanta.

    Patsy did say in one of her interviews that she'd meant to send the Bloomies to Jenny Davis for a Christmas present, but she hadn't gotten around to it. That's why we don't know if the Bloomies package was wrapped or not.


    I'm not trying ti be argumentative, honestly I'm not. I've just learned with this case to try and think outside the box and that's all I'm doing. Maybe things aren't how we've been thinking they were all along so I'm just throwing some different ideas out here.
    Ok so DeeDee you say the reason the panties couldn't have been in the drawer is because the rest of the package wasn't found in the drawer by LE. And also because the rest of the package was turned in 5 years later? I have to ask why would not the rest of these panties have ended up in the same place as the rest of the duct tape and the rest of the cord? There are missing elements that were used in this crime already. I don't understand why the missing panties are any different? I think they may be with the other things that are also missing. I don't see why they wouldn't be. I didn't say they took one pair out and put them in a drawer. I think the whole package was in a drawer and possibly the whole package was taken out, Wednesday pair removed, the package then disposed of with the duct tape and cord and tip of paintbrush that was missing. Why couldn't that have happened?
    And the rest of the package was turned in to LE 5 years later? And Patsy also turned in her red sweater, that was obviously brand new and too small and still had the fold creases in it right? What would stop someone from buying another package of panties and taking out the Wednesday pair and turning them in? I don't know why they would do that 5 years later but it all boils down to how much of the Ramseys lies do you believe? They also bought polygraphs years later too. That's what the panties showing up 5 years later reminds me of. Tying up some loose ends perhaps and giving the public one less thing to speculate about. So I'm not sure that what was turned in to LE 5 years later was the original package.
    And now this gets back to choosing what to believe about what Patsy said. In one instance I'm being told repeatedly Patsy lied about everything. No argument there. But now you're using Patsys statements to show what happened to the panties. It can't be both ways, unless it fits someones theory. and they choose to believe Patsy in this instance. So it's been decided this is one thing she didn't lie about? I do believe the panties were for Jenny. But another story Patsy tells is that Jonbenet wanted them so they ended up in her drawer. The other story is that they didn't make it to Atlanta for Christmas so they were in a box. The consensus is they were in a box I guess. But why couldn't they have been in the drawer then?
    It just seems to be that Patsy lied so much everybody picks and chooses what they believe. The truth is nobody knows where the panties were kept and everybody has their own theories. That's what determines what you believe was the truth from Patsy and what wasn't.

  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    You noticed that too! He's got more there than his golfing partner does.

    But seriously...


    Article was written in 2006, says he won the putter two decades earlier, so he certainly would have had it in 1996. No one could be so callous as to continue using something that was used to kill his daughter -- could he?
    Oh, I wonder about that. He had no problem throwing his supposed best friend under the bus, as well as several more innocent people who had no idea that they were getting a knife in the ribs. Maybe some of them still don't know that it was JR and PR who put LE onto them as suspects.

    Again, that family was not normal. Even if any of us felt we had to cover up a crime to protect our loved one, we'd never as much as be able to look at a golf club, let alone play the game.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  6. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    [/B]

    I'm not trying ti be argumentative, honestly I'm not. I've just learned with this case to try and think outside the box and that's all I'm doing. Maybe things aren't how we've been thinking they were all along so I'm just throwing some different ideas out here.
    Ok so DeeDee you say the reason the panties couldn't have been in the drawer is because the rest of the package wasn't found in the drawer by LE. And also because the rest of the package was turned in 5 years later? I have to ask why would not the rest of these panties have ended up in the same place as the rest of the duct tape and the rest of the cord? There are missing elements that were used in this crime already. I don't understand why the missing panties are any different? I think they may be with the other things that are also missing. I don't see why they wouldn't be. I didn't say they took one pair out and put them in a drawer. I think the whole package was in a drawer and possibly the whole package was taken out, Wednesday pair removed, the package then disposed of with the duct tape and cord and tip of paintbrush that was missing. Why couldn't that have happened?
    And the rest of the package was turned in to LE 5 years later? And Patsy also turned in her red sweater, that was obviously brand new and too small and still had the fold creases in it right? What would stop someone from buying another package of panties and taking out the Wednesday pair and turning them in? I don't know why they would do that 5 years later but it all boils down to how much of the Ramseys lies do you believe? They also bought polygraphs years later too. That's what the panties showing up 5 years later reminds me of. Tying up some loose ends perhaps and giving the public one less thing to speculate about. So I'm not sure that what was turned in to LE 5 years later was the original package.
    And now this gets back to choosing what to believe about what Patsy said. In one instance I'm being told repeatedly Patsy lied about everything. No argument there. But now you're using Patsys statements to show what happened to the panties. It can't be both ways, unless it fits someones theory. and they choose to believe Patsy in this instance. So it's been decided this is one thing she didn't lie about? I do believe the panties were for Jenny. But another story Patsy tells is that Jonbenet wanted them so they ended up in her drawer. The other story is that they didn't make it to Atlanta for Christmas so they were in a box. The consensus is they were in a box I guess. But why couldn't they have been in the drawer then?
    It just seems to be that Patsy lied so much everybody picks and chooses what they believe. The truth is nobody knows where the panties were kept and everybody has their own theories. That's what determines what you believe was the truth from Patsy and what wasn't.
    I think most of us believe that Patsy made up the story about the panties being in JonBenet's drawer so that she could pretend JonBenet was wearing panties 2 sizes too large for her, all that day. That was a ruse, because most of us know JonBenet did NOT have those panties on earlier in the day. That little detail, in the hands of a competent detective, could have unraveled the whole story, if Patsy had been interviewed right after the murder...sigh...Those morons let Patsy and John get away and lawyer up and that was the end of that...

    We can figure out why the panties were put on her - because her regular pair had blood on them from the paintbrush assault - what happened to THOSE panties? To my mind, only Patsy Ramsey would know what it was so important that the same KIND of panties were put on JonBenet even though they were 2 sizes too large. Someone else at the White's party had to have seen her in her Wednesday panties, or I'm sure Patsy or whomever re-dressed JonBenet would have just grabbed another regular pair out of her drawer, a pair that fit her. Going to the trouble to take a middle of the week pair of panties from a package that was supposed to be mailed or given to a cousin HAD to have some reasoning behind it. Amazingly, the autopsy did not remark about the giant panties! And I am assuming that either Pam Paugh removed the package when she went on her evidence raid, or they had already put the box in their things and when the left the house, the panties went with them.

    I doubt that it was a new package which was sent to LE 5 years later. For one thing, the design would have changed by then, or the type may have been totally unavailable. Not that Boulder LE would have checked, or even cared, really. It made no difference to the case.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  7. #55

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    I only look at what Patsy ever said as possible clues; I never take her at face value. The physical evidence has to support what actually happened, and if Patsy's telling the truth at any point, then that will match also. If there is no evidence to back up her or John's story, or to flat out refute it, then I consider it shaky at best, or evidence of lying to LE, at worst.

    Sorry, Learning, I'm no help. I still haven't decided where I think the head blow occurred; every scenario I come up with, I can think of something that makes me question it. I'm afraid I just don't know any family as bat chit crazy as the Ramseys, so children's clothing and beds and rooms reeking of urine and feces isn't something I can reasonably process as a mother/grandmother. For chrissakes, Patsy had sisters and parents nearby, other relatives, a maid, nannies, and plenty of money! I cannot fathom how she let this get so out of control...something was very sick in that family, and I think it lay with Patsy.

    Something I'm tossing around in my head right now is was it possible for Burke to commit all the acts of violence on JB that night. I truly haven't believed he could, but now I'm wondering. If that were the case, I'd say it all happened in the basement.

    I've always wondered if Burke at least struck the head blow, as that made sense to me as to why Patsy and John would stage the rest, awful as it was, for reasons you've all mentioned.

    I now would be half convinced Burke also strangled her, but for a couple of things, which I'll mention again:

    1. Kolar said 90 minutes passed between the head blow and strangulation, but even if it was less, I can't see Burke hanging around alone in the middle of the night, tired from the long Christmas Day, his sister lying comatose after he cracked her skull in half, and then randomly deciding to strangle his sister an hour or so later. It's possible, but I even question the children would have been up by themselves once they were put to bed, because they had to be exhausted after the long Christmas Day, unless they took afternoon naps--and maybe they did, we'll never know. Of course, it's just speculation; the kids could have sneaked downstairs to peek into the presents in the basement room. But back to how tired they must have been; I simply can't see them waking up later in the night and going on a present hunt. So if that took them to the basement, maybe it happened before the parents even went to bed, while they were preparing for bed, maybe after the kids had pineapple and were dressed for bed and maybe put to bed, with the parents thinking they'd go right to sleep. But instead the kids got back up.

    And there I go again: speculation on top of guessing on top of imagining.

    2. So back to what the evidence tells us, and DeeDee, you always explain this so well, I hope you'll stay with me here: if JB was lying by the paint tray for any length of time, dead, what about the livor mortis setting in? For example, if she was moved to the cellar room soon after she was strangled outside that door, laid out on the blanket, wrists tied, duct tape applied to the mouth, how much time could have elapsed between the strangulation by the paint tray and that staging without livor mortis showing she'd been moved?

    I'm getting at what Burke could have done by himself. So clearly this would be "Burke did it all, head blow, sexual assault with paintbrush, redressing, staging in cellar room:

    Burke couldn't have carried her with her weight and his size, so he'd have to have struck her down at least in the basement, if not by the paint tray area initially, and then used the paintbrush on her, broken the brush and tied the end on the ligature cord; then strangled her by the paint tray; and then did he drag her into the cellar room by himself--is that what we're thinking in this situation? Where he laid her on her blanket and wrapped it over her, staged the duct tape and wrist ligatures?

    Seems rather diabolical for a not yet 10 year old to me.

    So if this doesn't all make sense, then break it down as to what part Burke could and could not have done.

    My reasoning here is this:

    1. Let's say Burke in fact bludgeoned her "somewhere" and managed to get her to the paint tray, where he strangled her all by his lonesome. So unless John and Patsy found her dead very quickly after Burke strangled her by the paint tray and then they moved her and staged her body, livor mortis would have shown she was moved some time after her death, right? (I'm thinking the time frame is approx. 20 minutes until livor mortis sets in, DeeDee, or somewhere thereabouts?)

    2. NO source I've seen has stated or implied the child lay by the paint tray for any length of time after death and then was moved, thereby establishing rigor had already started when she was moved to the cellar room and staged.

    3. Therefore, it's reasonable to conclude she was moved from outside the cellar door to inside the cellar room not long after she was strangled.

    4. So if Burke bludgeoned, sexually assaulted, cleaned up, strangled, and then staged his sister's body in the cellar room, when did the parents find her, inspiring Patsy to write the note, etc.?

    Now, I don't believe anyone believes Burke did the staging in the cellar room. For one thing, he would have to have picked up her body and laid it out on the blanket, if what JR says about her position on the blanket is true--and Fleet White would have been able to back that up at that point, wouldn't he?

    Dragging her body onto the blanket would have been difficult, if he coudn't actually pick her up, though this might explain why she had so many fibers and hair on the top under the armpits, I guess.

    Her hair was also a mess, which has made me think either she did sleep some in her bed before whatever woke her and ended with her death, or she was roughly handled during the various aspects of the attacks and/or staging--she did have contre coup brain injury, as well, if memory serves.

    See that's what's bothering me about this right now. I am limiting myself as to what I believe Burke could have done; in fact, her white top was covered in hair, fibers, and artifact, plus she did have a few scrape-like abrasions on her upper back/left shoulder and the back of one leg. So I'm now wondering about that lab report of the aforementioned dirt and trash, as well,, Learnin. Shouldn't that have told LE where her torso had been lying, what rooms in the home, especially the basement? Was it all from being by the paint tray?

    And if someone had "dirty" hands depositing various artifact of hair, fibers, and debris under her armpits, what's that about?

    Didn't we recently have this discussion? Okay, I'm confused again. I've wandered around in this basement for so long, I'm starting to feel like the ghost there.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #56

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    To clarify the thought that is bugging me in the above post, to break the elements of the "Burke did it" theory down:

    If Burke bludgeoned his sister--wherever--and let's put the sexual assault aside for the moment...

    If he strangled his sister by the paint tray, where LE believes she in fact died...

    Could he have staged her body in the cellar room, as well?

    Or was the staging in the cellar room not possible for Burke for any reason?

    How can we figure this out?

    I'm not talking about what we "think" or "believe" he could or couldn't have done. I'm talking about what the evidence says.

    Livor mortis: if she lay by the paint tray for more than 20 minutes and then was moved to the cellar room to stage, that would be in the evidence of livor mortis at autopsy.

    So that would put Burke, if he did ALL of this, as being up alone, bludgeoning his sister, doing whatever for another 60-90 minutes, strangling her, her body lying there another 20+ minutes while Burke did whatever again, maybe getting the blanket and pillow, etc., then him moving her/dragging her to the cellar room and staging her.

    However he staged her at that point, if the parents moved her again in any way, that would have shown up in the livor mortis patterns, correct?

    So the evidence as I understand it indicates she was not moved after she was staged in the cellar room. She also was not moved more than 20 minutes after death. What would that tell us, as far as a timeline goes?

    If Burke did all of it, he moved her to the cellar room within 20 minutes of strangling her, and at least put her on the blanket. The wrist ligature and duct tape could have been staged earlier or later without affecting livor mortis; and the duct tape appears to have been applied after her head was lying to the right, as she was later "found" in rigor. Remember the saliva and mucous ran down the right of her face, dripping on the upper right shirt sleeve, before the duct tape was applied.

    Now look at it another way:

    If Burke bludgeoned her somewhere in the house, then strangled her by the paint tray, but left her there and the parents later found her...

    How much time would have lapsed if there were no livor mortis patterns showing her body being moved after it began to set?

    In other words, and this is critical or I wouldn't be dogging it...

    If Burke bludgeoned and strangled his sister, leaving her by the paint tray, and Patsy and/or JR moved her to the cellar room for the staging there...

    They had to know fairly quickly what had happened, didn't they?

    So within 20 minutes of strangulation they find JB by the paint tray dead at the hands of her brother and they decide to stage her body in the cellar room?

    And if they actually cleaned her up and redressed her before moving her body from the paint tray area into the cellar room...

    That's a fast leap from Happy Family to Dead Child Staged in the Cellar Room.

    And let's write a ransom note.

    Maybe I'm off on the livor mortis timeline. Or maybe I'm just off.

    But looking at it this way, it appears to me it has to be all Burke, to the cellar room staging, with Patsy writing the note to cover once the parents found the body...

    Or I have to consider either Patsy and/or John had a hand in the ligature strangulation by the tray.

    How can it be any other way?

    And back to speculation: How do two not completely psychotic parents find their daughter bludgeoned, sexually assaulted, and strangled by the paint tray in their basement, and decide and execute within 20 minutes the cleaning, redressing, and staging of the body in the cellar room, let's write a ransom note to cover it all up, possibly with some quick phone calls, and voila! La de da.

    How did those phone calls go? (Again speculation, but I believe these calls were made by the "lack of evidence" resulting from the Ramseys and DA Hunter stonewalling LE on them for a year.)

    JR: "Hello? It's JR, Michael. Sorry to call so late, but it is a bit of an emergency. JB's dead. It was an accident and we really don't want those pesky cops bothering about this, so what do you think?

    Michael: What? How'd this....

    JR: Don't interrupt! Suffice it to say, GET US OUT OF THIS! Stay by the phone. I'll call later! Buh bye!

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I only look at what Patsy ever said as possible clues; I never take her at face value. The physical evidence has to support what actually happened, and if Patsy's telling the truth at any point, then that will match also. If there is no evidence to back up her or John's story, or to flat out refute it, then I consider it shaky at best, or evidence of lying to LE, at worst.

    Sorry, Learning, I'm no help. I still haven't decided where I think the head blow occurred; every scenario I come up with, I can think of something that makes me question it. I'm afraid I just don't know any family as bat chit crazy as the Ramseys, so children's clothing and beds and rooms reeking of urine and feces isn't something I can reasonably process as a mother/grandmother. For chrissakes, Patsy had sisters and parents nearby, other relatives, a maid, nannies, and plenty of money! I cannot fathom how she let this get so out of control...something was very sick in that family, and I think it lay with Patsy.

    Something I'm tossing around in my head right now is was it possible for Burke to commit all the acts of violence on JB that night. I truly haven't believed he could, but now I'm wondering. If that were the case, I'd say it all happened in the basement.

    I've always wondered if Burke at least struck the head blow, as that made sense to me as to why Patsy and John would stage the rest, awful as it was, for reasons you've all mentioned.

    I now would be half convinced Burke also strangled her, but for a couple of things, which I'll mention again:

    1. Kolar said 90 minutes passed between the head blow and strangulation, but even if it was less, I can't see Burke hanging around alone in the middle of the night, tired from the long Christmas Day, his sister lying comatose after he cracked her skull in half, and then randomly deciding to strangle his sister an hour or so later. It's possible, but I even question the children would have been up by themselves once they were put to bed, because they had to be exhausted after the long Christmas Day, unless they took afternoon naps--and maybe they did, we'll never know. Of course, it's just speculation; the kids could have sneaked downstairs to peek into the presents in the basement room. But back to how tired they must have been; I simply can't see them waking up later in the night and going on a present hunt. So if that took them to the basement, maybe it happened before the parents even went to bed, while they were preparing for bed, maybe after the kids had pineapple and were dressed for bed and maybe put to bed, with the parents thinking they'd go right to sleep. But instead the kids got back up.

    And there I go again: speculation on top of guessing on top of imagining.

    2. So back to what the evidence tells us, and DeeDee, you always explain this so well, I hope you'll stay with me here: if JB was lying by the paint tray for any length of time, dead, what about the livor mortis setting in? For example, if she was moved to the cellar room soon after she was strangled outside that door, laid out on the blanket, wrists tied, duct tape applied to the mouth, how much time could have elapsed between the strangulation by the paint tray and that staging without livor mortis showing she'd been moved?

    I'm getting at what Burke could have done by himself. So clearly this would be "Burke did it all, head blow, sexual assault with paintbrush, redressing, staging in cellar room:

    Burke couldn't have carried her with her weight and his size, so he'd have to have struck her down at least in the basement, if not by the paint tray area initially, and then used the paintbrush on her, broken the brush and tied the end on the ligature cord; then strangled her by the paint tray; and then did he drag her into the cellar room by himself--is that what we're thinking in this situation? Where he laid her on her blanket and wrapped it over her, staged the duct tape and wrist ligatures?

    Seems rather diabolical for a not yet 10 year old to me.

    So if this doesn't all make sense, then break it down as to what part Burke could and could not have done.

    My reasoning here is this:

    1. Let's say Burke in fact bludgeoned her "somewhere" and managed to get her to the paint tray, where he strangled her all by his lonesome. So unless John and Patsy found her dead very quickly after Burke strangled her by the paint tray and then they moved her and staged her body, livor mortis would have shown she was moved some time after her death, right? (I'm thinking the time frame is approx. 20 minutes until livor mortis sets in, DeeDee, or somewhere thereabouts?)

    2. NO source I've seen has stated or implied the child lay by the paint tray for any length of time after death and then was moved, thereby establishing rigor had already started when she was moved to the cellar room and staged.

    3. Therefore, it's reasonable to conclude she was moved from outside the cellar door to inside the cellar room not long after she was strangled.

    4. So if Burke bludgeoned, sexually assaulted, cleaned up, strangled, and then staged his sister's body in the cellar room, when did the parents find her, inspiring Patsy to write the note, etc.?

    Now, I don't believe anyone believes Burke did the staging in the cellar room. For one thing, he would have to have picked up her body and laid it out on the blanket, if what JR says about her position on the blanket is true--and Fleet White would have been able to back that up at that point, wouldn't he?

    Dragging her body onto the blanket would have been difficult, if he coudn't actually pick her up, though this might explain why she had so many fibers and hair on the top under the armpits, I guess.

    Her hair was also a mess, which has made me think either she did sleep some in her bed before whatever woke her and ended with her death, or she was roughly handled during the various aspects of the attacks and/or staging--she did have contre coup brain injury, as well, if memory serves.

    See that's what's bothering me about this right now. I am limiting myself as to what I believe Burke could have done; in fact, her white top was covered in hair, fibers, and artifact, plus she did have a few scrape-like abrasions on her upper back/left shoulder and the back of one leg. So I'm now wondering about that lab report of the aforementioned dirt and trash, as well,, Learnin. Shouldn't that have told LE where her torso had been lying, what rooms in the home, especially the basement? Was it all from being by the paint tray?

    And if someone had "dirty" hands depositing various artifact of hair, fibers, and debris under her armpits, what's that about?

    Didn't we recently have this discussion? Okay, I'm confused again. I've wandered around in this basement for so long, I'm starting to feel like the ghost there.
    I, too, am trying to ascertain, in my own mind, just how much BR could have been responsible for. I'm inclined to think BR could have struck the head blow and tied the ligature. The stager, trying to explain the strangulation, rigged the stick to make it look "professional". Let's face it. That stick served no useful purpose to the killer.

    With Kolar's book, we now know BR's DNA was not on the cord so my inclination (to believe BR pulled the cord) loses weight unless Kolar is withholding that bit of information. Doubt it, but it would explain his theory.

    It was Meyer who mentioned the dust and lint on JBR's feet when he first viewed the body at the Ramsey home. Obviously, he thought it important enough to note it in his report from that evening. I wonder why it wasn't mentioned at the autopsy or was it? I'd have to start reading again.

    At any rate, here's what I'm thinking at the present. BR got into a fight with JBR in the basement laundry room where they ended up after checking the presents, etc. LE found pictures down there...were they stuck under the washer and what types of pictures....??? At any rate, if I remember correctly, one of the interviews suggested that the laundry room was a pace the kids might have spent some time playing.

    He got to experimenting again, she resists after a bit and attempts to run up stairs. He grabs her by the shirt collar and slings her around to the floor. As she attempts to get up, he grabs a golf club nearby and delivers the blow. She probably got a scream or two out before the head blow. Patsy hears it upstairs...the basement door being opened and she heads down that way. She catches Burke dragging her back toward the wine cellar to hide her.

    She screams...and it could be the scream the neighbor heard but earlier than what she thought. "What did you do...what happened?" "She fell....she fell and hit her head!" But Patsy sees some blood...may even have had her bottoms down...and sees red marks on her neck. She's putting two and two together as JBR is gurgling...etc....

    She calls John, after a brief quizzing where they manage to get him to admit he hit her with a golf club. They send BR to his bedroom while they wait to see if JBR will come to. She is cleaned up, and maybe eve redressed because they think they might take her to the hospital but the bruising on her neck can't be explained. Her vital signs are very weak...and getting weaker...at a point, they think she's dead...but this is where the 45 to 90 minutes come in before ligature is tied. They decide to make it look like a sexual murder and jab her with the stick but, afterwards, decides to make it look like a kidnapping gone wrong.
    She's turned over, ligature tightened, then moved into the wine cellar. Lastly, the ransom note is concocted.



    At some point, they know they have to cover and make it look like

  10. #58

    Default

    Oh, sorry, I know I'm going off topic.

    Y'all are talking about Bloomies and what room this happened in and so forth.

    And I'm off on another tangent. I'm outta control!

    50 lashes for me, from Chero!
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    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Oh, sorry, I know I'm going off topic.

    Y'all are talking about Bloomies and what room this happened in and so forth.

    And I'm off on another tangent. I'm outta control!

    50 lashes for me, from Chero!
    No, you're not off topic!!!

    The title of the thread is "In which room do you think the head blow occurred?" and your post was about that and more. If anything, the Bloomies discussion was an off-topic topic on this thread, but even then, it had to do with whether they were in the basement or upstairs. So it's all good.

    Carry on!

  12. #60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    I, too, am trying to ascertain, in my own mind, just how much BR could have been responsible for. I'm inclined to think BR could have struck the head blow and tied the ligature. The stager, trying to explain the strangulation, rigged the stick to make it look "professional". Let's face it. That stick served no useful purpose to the killer.

    With Kolar's book, we now know BR's DNA was not on the cord so my inclination (to believe BR pulled the cord) loses weight unless Kolar is withholding that bit of information. Doubt it, but it would explain his theory.

    It was Meyer who mentioned the dust and lint on JBR's feet when he first viewed the body at the Ramsey home. Obviously, he thought it important enough to note it in his report from that evening. I wonder why it wasn't mentioned at the autopsy or was it? I'd have to start reading again.

    At any rate, here's what I'm thinking at the present. BR got into a fight with JBR in the basement laundry room where they ended up after checking the presents, etc. LE found pictures down there...were they stuck under the washer and what types of pictures....??? At any rate, if I remember correctly, one of the interviews suggested that the laundry room was a pace the kids might have spent some time playing.

    He got to experimenting again, she resists after a bit and attempts to run up stairs. He grabs her by the shirt collar and slings her around to the floor. As she attempts to get up, he grabs a golf club nearby and delivers the blow. She probably got a scream or two out before the head blow. Patsy hears it upstairs...the basement door being opened and she heads down that way. She catches Burke dragging her back toward the wine cellar to hide her.

    She screams...and it could be the scream the neighbor heard but earlier than what she thought. "What did you do...what happened?" "She fell....she fell and hit her head!" But Patsy sees some blood...may even have had her bottoms down...and sees red marks on her neck. She's putting two and two together as JBR is gurgling...etc....

    She calls John, after a brief quizzing where they manage to get him to admit he hit her with a golf club. They send BR to his bedroom while they wait to see if JBR will come to. She is cleaned up, and maybe eve redressed because they think they might take her to the hospital but the bruising on her neck can't be explained. Her vital signs are very weak...and getting weaker...at a point, they think she's dead...but this is where the 45 to 90 minutes come in before ligature is tied. They decide to make it look like a sexual murder and jab her with the stick but, afterwards, decides to make it look like a kidnapping gone wrong.
    She's turned over, ligature tightened, then moved into the wine cellar. Lastly, the ransom note is concocted.



    At some point, they know they have to cover and make it look like
    Ah, yes! Where is Burke's DNA on the ligature? No way he'd have thought to wear gloves.

    It's so hard to even REMEMBER all the evidence at this point.

    See, if there was no intruder--and I think that's been established--then why wasn't any Ramsey DNA on the ligatures? Or the paintbrush "handle"?

    Unless that foreign faction was dancing around in that basement, handling the cord, all six of them, either Patsy and/or JR thought to wear gloves, right?

    Or could it be that they didn't wear gloves at that point, and their DNA was just not recovered from the cord? In which case, one could say Burke didn't wear gloves and his DNA just didn't happen to be recovered from the cord.

    The cord was handled by numerous people during collection and processing, no doubt, as well as at manufacture, packing, and shipping.

    So maybe "missing" DNA is as unpredictable as finding random DNA artifact?

    Sheesh. I'm thinking we can pretty much just give up on the DNA evidence. At this point, I'm totally convinced either of the DAs in this case would have destroyed any critical evidence of Ramsey DNA found at the crime scene anyway.

    I'm thinking the livor mortis might be a better determination to narrow down what happened and who was responsible for what element of the death?

    Or maybe even some other piece of evidence we haven't focused on yet.

    The blood on that pillowcase still troubles me. And while I do understand your focus on the laundry room in the basement, I wonder if the blanket had been washed upstairs in that laundry area.

    Who remembers where the maid or Patsy said JB's bedclothes were usually washed? I remember that being addressed, but don't remember the answer this minute. Anyone? TIA. Or I can look it up later.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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