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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    I do think Heymom may be right about those golf clubs being Burke's youth set. That's why they're not all nice and neat in a big bag.

    I'm guessing one of the big golf bags in the cellar hall is John's and the other is Patsy's.

    The single bag in the storage room by the laundry could have belonged to John Andrew (he was old enough to have a bigger set of clubs to play with his dad), or maybe it was an old set of John's they were saving for Burke to use.

    It's interesting when you read the article that it says John was using an old bag with the handle missing and none of his golf clubs had covers. The story really paints John as being on hard times six months after Patsy died. That may have been why John claimed to have only played six times that year (if you believe that) because, at the time, he couldn't afford the greens fees.
    So are those skinny rods actually golf clubs, Cherokee? H-E-L-P!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    No, you're not off topic!!!

    The title of the thread is "In which room do you think the head blow occurred?" and your post was about that and more. If anything, the Bloomies discussion was an off-topic topic on this thread, but even then, it had to do with whether they were in the basement or upstairs. So it's all good.

    Carry on!

    Whew! I'm still bleeding from that last walk down the plank....
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    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    There were other gifts wrapped in the room where JonBenet was found, Elle. They had the paper peeled away from them. Now, granted, that was likely also where the Bloomies package was, and whoever looked for the panties may have unwrapped a couple of other packages before the Bloomies were found, but I'm thinking the lure of unwrapped presents is what drew the 2 kids down to the cellar in the first place. Maybe Burke went down first and started unwrapping the presents, and then JonBenet found him and said she would tell. She turned around, started to leave - he runs after her - maybe grabs her shirt from behind, picks up a golf club and WHACK - hits her on the head. She falls. He waits to see if she gets back up. She doesn't. He gets a train track piece, pokes her with it. Pokes her in another spot. She still doesn't move. He goes and gets Mommy and the night is spent both mourning for their lost child and working to protect the still living one.
    I have trouble with the train track poking hm (?). If she was wearing cliothes, how would these poke/prodding marks show up? I think these marks would only show up if they were actually prodded into bare skin not on top of her clothes or jammies, whatever (?). Know what I mean?
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pearlsim View Post
    I don't know that anything had to have happened. Patsy saw that her daughter was dead and she saw that her son caused that death. It could be that she was aware of JonBenet's prior sexual abuse but, even if she wasn't, this was a woman who was all about image. She would've had to realize how "messy" this would all be and how Burke would be branded a monster for killing his sister. JonBenet was gone and there was nothing that could be done to save her but I believe Patsy, in deep shock and grief, probably felt that she couldn't lose her only other child.

    I've thought a lot about Patsy since reading Kolar's book. Let me state right off the bat, I will NEVER excuse her and John's terrible behavior in throwing innocent people under the Ramsey "We're Too Good to Have Done This" Gospel Train, but I do feel a certain sympathy for her when I think of those terrible hours of realizing JonBenet was dead. From a probably greatly anticipated trip on the Big Red Boat to spending all night working over the battered body of your baby girl - whew, that's pretty hard to digest.
    Your post is believable, Pearlsim!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    At any rate, here's what I'm thinking at the present. BR got into a fight with JBR in the basement laundry room where they ended up after checking the presents, etc. LE found pictures down there...were they stuck under the washer and what types of pictures....??? At any rate, if I remember correctly, one of the interviews suggested that the laundry room was a pace the kids might have spent some time playing.

    He got to experimenting again, she resists after a bit and attempts to run up stairs. He grabs her by the shirt collar and slings her around to the floor. As she attempts to get up, he grabs a golf club nearby and delivers the blow. She probably got a scream or two out before the head blow. Patsy hears it upstairs...the basement door being opened and she heads down that way. She catches Burke dragging her back toward the wine cellar to hide her.

    She screams...and it could be the scream the neighbor heard but earlier than what she thought. "What did you do...what happened?" "She fell....she fell and hit her head!" But Patsy sees some blood...may even have had her bottoms down...and sees red marks on her neck. She's putting two and two together as JBR is gurgling...etc....

    She calls John, after a brief quizzing where they manage to get him to admit he hit her with a golf club. They send BR to his bedroom while they wait to see if JBR will come to. She is cleaned up, and maybe eve redressed because they think they might take her to the hospital but the bruising on her neck can't be explained. Her vital signs are very weak...and getting weaker...at a point, they think she's dead...but this is where the 45 to 90 minutes come in before ligature is tied. They decide to make it look like a sexual murder and jab her with the stick but, afterwards, decides to make it look like a kidnapping gone wrong.
    She's turned over, ligature tightened, then moved into the wine cellar. Lastly, the ransom note is concocted.

    At some point, they know they have to cover and make it look like
    I agree with most of your scenario, Learnin. But the stick stuck up inside JonBenet's vagina was done to cover up the prior abuse, I feel certain about that. Maybe one of the parents, either John or Patsy, didn't know about the abuse, or maybe they both did, but whichever one decided to stick the paintbrush up inside her definitely did know what he/she was trying to cover up.

    I forgot, did LE find the part of the paintbrush that had been poked up inside JonBenet, or was that part of the evidence along with the duct tape and cord that was never found?
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    I agree with most of your scenario, Learnin. But the stick stuck up inside JonBenet's vagina was done to cover up the prior abuse, I feel certain about that. Maybe one of the parents, either John or Patsy, didn't know about the abuse, or maybe they both did, but whichever one decided to stick the paintbrush up inside her definitely did know what he/she was trying to cover up.

    I forgot, did LE find the part of the paintbrush that had been poked up inside JonBenet, or was that part of the evidence along with the duct tape and cord that was never found?
    I agree with this heymom. This is exactly why this broken brush was used! To cover up prior abuse. This is why the whole staging was arranged. Instead of Patsy Ramsey taking action and preventing further abuse to her young daughter, she was still too deeply into entering JonBenét into child beauty pageants. Where were her priorities?
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    I, too, am trying to ascertain, in my own mind, just how much BR could have been responsible for. I'm inclined to think BR could have struck the head blow and tied the ligature. The stager, trying to explain the strangulation, rigged the stick to make it look "professional". Let's face it. That stick served no useful purpose to the killer.

    With Kolar's book, we now know BR's DNA was not on the cord so my inclination (to believe BR pulled the cord) loses weight unless Kolar is withholding that bit of information. Doubt it, but it would explain his theory.

    It was Meyer who mentioned the dust and lint on JBR's feet when he first viewed the body at the Ramsey home. Obviously, he thought it important enough to note it in his report from that evening. I wonder why it wasn't mentioned at the autopsy or was it? I'd have to start reading again.

    At any rate, here's what I'm thinking at the present. BR got into a fight with JBR in the basement laundry room where they ended up after checking the presents, etc. LE found pictures down there...were they stuck under the washer and what types of pictures....??? At any rate, if I remember correctly, one of the interviews suggested that the laundry room was a pace the kids might have spent some time playing.

    He got to experimenting again, she resists after a bit and attempts to run up stairs. He grabs her by the shirt collar and slings her around to the floor. As she attempts to get up, he grabs a golf club nearby and delivers the blow. She probably got a scream or two out before the head blow. Patsy hears it upstairs...the basement door being opened and she heads down that way. She catches Burke dragging her back toward the wine cellar to hide her.

    She screams...and it could be the scream the neighbor heard but earlier than what she thought. "What did you do...what happened?" "She fell....she fell and hit her head!" But Patsy sees some blood...may even have had her bottoms down...and sees red marks on her neck. She's putting two and two together as JBR is gurgling...etc....

    She calls John, after a brief quizzing where they manage to get him to admit he hit her with a golf club. They send BR to his bedroom while they wait to see if JBR will come to. She is cleaned up, and maybe eve redressed because they think they might take her to the hospital but the bruising on her neck can't be explained. Her vital signs are very weak...and getting weaker...at a point, they think she's dead...but this is where the 45 to 90 minutes come in before ligature is tied. They decide to make it look like a sexual murder and jab her with the stick but, afterwards, decides to make it look like a kidnapping gone wrong.
    She's turned over, ligature tightened, then moved into the wine cellar. Lastly, the ransom note is concocted.

    At some point, they know they have to cover and make it look like
    This scenario is very close to what I think happened as well. But I think it was BR who jabbed JBR with the paintbrush. I think the stager then broke up the paintbrush, wiped it clean of BR prints, and disposed of the part of the brush that caused the vaginal injury.

    I don't think BR had anything to do with the ligature. IMO PR and JR did all of the staging - "erasing" everything that was connected to the truth of what happened - and part of its purpose was to hide the truth from BR so he wouldn't connect JBR's death to anything he had done.

    JR also tried to "erase" the broken window by lying about it. Therefore, I believe it is connected in some way to what happened - if not that night, then a prior time. Did BR try to attack JBR previously with a golf club (besides the known prior incident) and hit the window?

    I suspect BR of regularly abusing JBR - sexually, physically and other acting out of anger, i.e. the chocolate box. IMO what happened that night was an escalation of what was already taking place. IMO PR and JR knew about the abuse, that BR had issues, and he was in therapy for it, hence the hidden medical records.

    You mention JBR gurgling and I've always wondered what awful reaction she may have been having to the head blow, i.e. convulsing?, and then possibly the cheyne-stokes breathing mentioned in Kolar's book (p. 65). Point being, some dramatic horrifying physical symptoms, versus simple unconsciousness, that would've motivated PR and JR to do a "mercy killing" while at the same time stage a "crime scene."

    IMO the purpose of the staged strangulation - that is, leaving the ligature ON JBR's neck - was to divert attention away from both the head injury AND the vaginal injury. Why stage a sexual attack only to unstage it by cleaning up and dressing?

    It doesn't make sense to me that they'd think they could cover up prior abuse by inflicting a new injury, since if they were aware of evidence of prior abuse, what made them think the new injury would hide it? Seems more likely to me that the new injury would only add to the abuse evidence, not replace it. I don't know.

    Finally, is it possible they were hoping the cause of death would be so blatantly obvious that no one would feel the need to do an autopsy? Or maybe they thought their political connections would help them avoid an autopsy? I understand that the autopsy would be automatic but I didn't know that until reading on this case.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Ah, yes! Where is Burke's DNA on the ligature? No way he'd have thought to wear gloves.

    It's so hard to even REMEMBER all the evidence at this point.

    See, if there was no intruder--and I think that's been established--then why wasn't any Ramsey DNA on the ligatures? Or the paintbrush "handle"?

    Unless that foreign faction was dancing around in that basement, handling the cord, all six of them, either Patsy and/or JR thought to wear gloves, right?

    Or could it be that they didn't wear gloves at that point, and their DNA was just not recovered from the cord? In which case, one could say Burke didn't wear gloves and his DNA just didn't happen to be recovered from the cord.

    The cord was handled by numerous people during collection and processing, no doubt, as well as at manufacture, packing, and shipping.

    So maybe "missing" DNA is as unpredictable as finding random DNA artifact?

    Sheesh. I'm thinking we can pretty much just give up on the DNA evidence. At this point, I'm totally convinced either of the DAs in this case would have destroyed any critical evidence of Ramsey DNA found at the crime scene anyway.

    I'm thinking the livor mortis might be a better determination to narrow down what happened and who was responsible for what element of the death?

    Or maybe even some other piece of evidence we haven't focused on yet.

    The blood on that pillowcase still troubles me. And while I do understand your focus on the laundry room in the basement, I wonder if the blanket had been washed upstairs in that laundry area.

    Who remembers where the maid or Patsy said JB's bedclothes were usually washed? I remember that being addressed, but don't remember the answer this minute. Anyone? TIA. Or I can look it up later.
    Another thing about the ligature. Kolar states that the cord was taken out and snipped in succession. I forget how and what was cut first. There was a burned end, and then all other lengths were cut in succession as the ligatures were made. Sounds like an adult with gloves on.

    Another thing. I think the stager(s) had to run up and down from the basement to the second floor and back down to get things...this is why the lights were turned down and the flashlight was used. It's also why, IMO, the light in the solarium was turned off for the first time the neighbor could ever remember. I could just hear the stagers: "You have to turn the lights off like we're asleep because if the neighbors see our lights burning until 2 in the morning, they're going to know it wasn't an intruder." The dim lights that the neighbor saw through the window was, IMO, the stager(s) retrieving things from upstairs. I've always thought it was significant that the solarium light was off and it indicated an "inside" job. An intruder, coming in through the basement window or through a back door wouldn't have need to be in the living room area, etc.

    And my belief is becoming more and more strong that the stager(s) changed their mind(s) about staging a sex crime vs. a kidnapping gone wrong. It explains why someone jabbed JBR and yet cleaned her.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    I agree with most of your scenario, Learnin. But the stick stuck up inside JonBenet's vagina was done to cover up the prior abuse, I feel certain about that. Maybe one of the parents, either John or Patsy, didn't know about the abuse, or maybe they both did, but whichever one decided to stick the paintbrush up inside her definitely did know what he/she was trying to cover up.

    I forgot, did LE find the part of the paintbrush that had been poked up inside JonBenet, or was that part of the evidence along with the duct tape and cord that was never found?
    You could be right about the stick being used to cover up prior abuse. I wouldn't argue the point but my problem with this is I can't understand why she was cleaned up. If they jabbed her with a stick to make it look like she had been sexually molested by an intruder that night (in order to cover up prior abuse), then, why clean her up? I won't belabor the point because maybe PR simply couldn't stand her to be bloodied. The quandry, for me, is simply: Was the stager(s) staging a kidnapping scene or a sexual sadistic murder? Therein lies the confusion and I'm only attempting to explain the contradiction. It might be that the stager(s) started out to stage a sexual scene then came up with a better scenario (in their mind) such as a kidnapping gone wrong. But, again, I'm not insisting on this.

    On the other hand, experts tell us that a person, guilty of murdering someone they care for, will try to undo the crime as best they can and there are certainly signs of that here.

    I do not believe the other part of the stick was ever found.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    You could be right about the stick being used to cover up prior abuse. I wouldn't argue the point but my problem with this is I can't understand why she was cleaned up. If they jabbed her with a stick to make it look like she had been sexually molested by an intruder that night (in order to cover up prior abuse), then, why clean her up? I won't belabor the point because maybe PR simply couldn't stand her to be bloodied. The quandry, for me, is simply: Was the stager(s) staging a kidnapping scene or a sexual sadistic murder? Therein lies the confusion and I'm only attempting to explain the contradiction. It might be that the stager(s) started out to stage a sexual scene then came up with a better scenario (in their mind) such as a kidnapping gone wrong. But, again, I'm not insisting on this.

    On the other hand, experts tell us that a person, guilty of murdering someone they care for, will try to undo the crime as best they can and there are certainly signs of that here.

    I do not believe the other part of the stick was ever found.
    She was cleaned up because this is what a mother usually does with her children, Learnin. Plus it was just force of habit. Patsy gave herself away here, I think! Maybe never even gave this a thought while it was being done, because it was always done with JonBenét.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Britt View Post
    This scenario is very close to what I think happened as well. But I think it was BR who jabbed JBR with the paintbrush. I think the stager then broke up the paintbrush, wiped it clean of BR prints, and disposed of the part of the brush that caused the vaginal injury.
    I wouldn't argue this point.

    I don't think BR had anything to do with the ligature. IMO PR and JR did all of the staging - "erasing" everything that was connected to the truth of what happened - and part of its purpose was to hide the truth from BR so he wouldn't connect JBR's death to anything he had done.
    I agree that the staging had a double purpose and one was to give BR a way out.

    JR also tried to "erase" the broken window by lying about it. Therefore, I believe it is connected in some way to what happened - if not that night, then a prior time. Did BR try to attack JBR previously with a golf club (besides the known prior incident) and hit the window?
    Point well taken. I believe the window was broken before that night but maybe not the way JR told.

    I suspect BR of regularly abusing JBR - sexually, physically and other acting out of anger, i.e. the chocolate box. IMO what happened that night was an escalation of what was already taking place. IMO PR and JR knew about the abuse, that BR had issues, and he was in therapy for it, hence the hidden medical records.
    I've always felt it was BR or JAR doing the abuse. Since Kolar's book, I suspicion BR even moreso.

    You mention JBR gurgling and I've always wondered what awful reaction she may have been having to the head blow, i.e. convulsing?, and then possibly the cheyne-stokes breathing mentioned in Kolar's book (p. 65). Point being, some dramatic horrifying physical symptoms, versus simple unconsciousness, that would've motivated PR and JR to do a "mercy killing" while at the same time stage a "crime scene."
    The point being I think whatever horrible response JBR might have been manifesting right after the headblow, at the very least, it let the parents know that she was injured very seriously.

    IMO the purpose of the staged strangulation - that is, leaving the ligature ON JBR's neck - was to divert attention away from both the head injury AND the vaginal injury. Why stage a sexual attack only to unstage it by cleaning up and dressing?
    Precisely the difficulty I have! Why stage a sexual attack and then clean it up? I agree with you. All the other staging was done to divert attention away from the vagina.

    Finally, is it possible they were hoping the cause of death would be so blatantly obvious that no one would feel the need to do an autopsy? Or maybe they thought their political connections would help them avoid an autopsy? I understand that the autopsy would be automatic but I didn't know that until reading on this case.
    I think you've nailed it, here. They decided to make it look like a kidnapping with child being held in basement bound and gagged with tape. Parents call against the clear and repeated after repeated after repeated (Patsy anyone?) instructions not to call the police.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    She was cleaned up because this is what a mother usually does with her children, Learnin. Plus it was just force of habit. Patsy gave herself away here, I think! Maybe never even gave this a thought while it was being done, because it was always done with JonBenét.
    It does have mother written all over it, doesn't it?



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