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  1. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    So are those skinny rods actually golf clubs, Cherokee? H-E-L-P!
    Yes. The screen captures from the "train room" video show different angles of the objects, and they look like metal rods with black rubber grips the size of youth golf clubs. Unfortunately, the Daily Beast logo is over the ends of the clubs on the basement floor, so the club heads are difficult to see. The objects are not curtain rods. If you look through the various photos KK has posted at the beginning of the "Extra golf clubs seen in Ramsey basement/train room video" thread here at FFJ, or go to the Ramsey Case Library and look at the screen captures KK and Cynic have posted from the "train room" video, there are more photos of clubs than the one or two I posted.

    Kolar says Burke had a youth set of golf clubs downstairs. We know that two years earlier, Burke hit JonBenet in the face with a club in Charlevoix. I seriously doubt he was using an adult golf club at age 7 1/2, so I imagine it was from his youth set. Patsy even say Burke had his whiffle ball" there with the club, so he wasn't hitting real golf balls, if you believe what she said.

    John was an avid golfer both before, and after, he met Patsy. I think the game was very important to him. He learned it from his dad, and I believe he wanted Burke to learn from him.

    Interestingly, there was also a golf club found in the Ramsey back yard. It was taken into evidence, but we've not heard much about it.

    http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-evidence.htm

    May 9, 2000 - Live Chat with former Detective Steve Thomas on About.com

    crimeADM: "We've been told that the paperback will include several corrections. Anything of substance?"

    Steve Thomas: "One item-page 44, a last minute mistake - ballbat with hair on it should read "golfclub with hair on it," found outside on west side of house. Ballbat found in north yard ...."

  2. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    [/B]

    I'm not trying ti be argumentative, honestly I'm not. I've just learned with this case to try and think outside the box and that's all I'm doing. Maybe things aren't how we've been thinking they were all along so I'm just throwing some different ideas out here.
    Ok so DeeDee you say the reason the panties couldn't have been in the drawer is because the rest of the package wasn't found in the drawer by LE. And also because the rest of the package was turned in 5 years later? I have to ask why would not the rest of these panties have ended up in the same place as the rest of the duct tape and the rest of the cord? There are missing elements that were used in this crime already. I don't understand why the missing panties are any different? I think they may be with the other things that are also missing. I don't see why they wouldn't be. I didn't say they took one pair out and put them in a drawer. I think the whole package was in a drawer and possibly the whole package was taken out, Wednesday pair removed, the package then disposed of with the duct tape and cord and tip of paintbrush that was missing. Why couldn't that have happened?
    And the rest of the package was turned in to LE 5 years later? And Patsy also turned in her red sweater, that was obviously brand new and too small and still had the fold creases in it right? What would stop someone from buying another package of panties and taking out the Wednesday pair and turning them in? I don't know why they would do that 5 years later but it all boils down to how much of the Ramseys lies do you believe? They also bought polygraphs years later too. That's what the panties showing up 5 years later reminds me of. Tying up some loose ends perhaps and giving the public one less thing to speculate about. So I'm not sure that what was turned in to LE 5 years later was the original package.
    And now this gets back to choosing what to believe about what Patsy said. In one instance I'm being told repeatedly Patsy lied about everything. No argument there. But now you're using Patsys statements to show what happened to the panties. It can't be both ways, unless it fits someones theory. and they choose to believe Patsy in this instance. So it's been decided this is one thing she didn't lie about? I do believe the panties were for Jenny. But another story Patsy tells is that Jonbenet wanted them so they ended up in her drawer. The other story is that they didn't make it to Atlanta for Christmas so they were in a box. The consensus is they were in a box I guess. But why couldn't they have been in the drawer then?
    It just seems to be that Patsy lied so much everybody picks and chooses what they believe. The truth is nobody knows where the panties were kept and everybody has their own theories. That's what determines what you believe was the truth from Patsy and what wasn't.
    It's hard to know what to believe, but I remember PR saying JB didn't
    want her to give the other pair of undies away, she wanted them, so
    PR said she let her keep them and they were just pitched in a drawer.
    brenk

  3. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Whew! I'm still bleeding from that last walk down the plank....
    Argh, you scurvy knavette, you are not! You didn't walk down any plank; I walked your pyrate booty back here to the FFJ Guttah where it belongs!

  4. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    It does have mother written all over it, doesn't it?
    Exactly Learnin! Without even knowing what she was doing, she was still being JonBenét's mother!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  5. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britt View Post
    This scenario is very close to what I think happened as well. But I think it was BR who jabbed JBR with the paintbrush. I think the stager then broke up the paintbrush, wiped it clean of BR prints, and disposed of the part of the brush that caused the vaginal injury.

    I don't think BR had anything to do with the ligature. IMO PR and JR did all of the staging - "erasing" everything that was connected to the truth of what happened - and part of its purpose was to hide the truth from BR so he wouldn't connect JBR's death to anything he had done.

    JR also tried to "erase" the broken window by lying about it. Therefore, I believe it is connected in some way to what happened - if not that night, then a prior time. Did BR try to attack JBR previously with a golf club (besides the known prior incident) and hit the window?

    I suspect BR of regularly abusing JBR - sexually, physically and other acting out of anger, i.e. the chocolate box. IMO what happened that night was an escalation of what was already taking place. IMO PR and JR knew about the abuse, that BR had issues, and he was in therapy for it, hence the hidden medical records.

    You mention JBR gurgling and I've always wondered what awful reaction she may have been having to the head blow, i.e. convulsing?, and then possibly the cheyne-stokes breathing mentioned in Kolar's book (p. 65). Point being, some dramatic horrifying physical symptoms, versus simple unconsciousness, that would've motivated PR and JR to do a "mercy killing" while at the same time stage a "crime scene."

    IMO the purpose of the staged strangulation - that is, leaving the ligature ON JBR's neck - was to divert attention away from both the head injury AND the vaginal injury. Why stage a sexual attack only to unstage it by cleaning up and dressing?

    It doesn't make sense to me that they'd think they could cover up prior abuse by inflicting a new injury, since if they were aware of evidence of prior abuse, what made them think the new injury would hide it? Seems more likely to me that the new injury would only add to the abuse evidence, not replace it. I don't know.

    Finally, is it possible they were hoping the cause of death would be so blatantly obvious that no one would feel the need to do an autopsy? Or maybe they thought their political connections would help them avoid an autopsy? I understand that the autopsy would be automatic but I didn't know that until reading on this case.
    Thank you for laying this scenario out so clearly. Maybe BR did use the whole paintbrush, either before he hit JonBenet over the head (and she then screamed) or afterward, as she lay there mostly unconscious on the floor. If those marks on her back and cheek were from the end of the train track being poked into her, either Burke did it to see if she'd wake up, or he did it out of cruelty.

    As for what could have happened after she was hit....My son was knocked out for a few minutes after he fell and hit his head. But when he started coming to, he did scream, an unearlthy, high-pitched keening that I have been told many head-injury patients make. I could not hush him up. I think it was involuntary. Now, his skull fracture was nothing like JonBenet's, and he was semi-conscious at the time, so I'm not sure JonBenet was able to make that sound, but if she was, everyone in the house would have heard it. It was horrible. He was also bleeding from his right ear.

    My son did not have seizures, and once the first responders arrived, they were able to talk to him and get him to stop the screaming and calm down, which I could not do. Then they loaded him into the ambulance, drove him to the local airport and life-flighted him to a level 1 Trauma hospital 90 miles away. Thank God it was a mild to minor skull fracture and he recovered in a few days.

    I only share the circumstances to compare them with the very severe injury that JonBenet suffered the night she died, not to get sympathy.

    I think your scenario of the "mercy killing" may be very true - that JonBenet was not simply lying there inert but was moaning, or seizing, or bleeding from her ears, or having Cheyne-Stokes breaths, something that horrified her parents and drove them to think of some way to end it for her.

    And all the clean-up was to hopefully hide the injury to her vagina, but as it turned out, she continued to bleed a little, even after the clean-up. So the evidence of the sexual assault was there on her underwear and the physical evidence was there also.

    It's hard for me to think that either John or Patsy was monster enough to dig a sharp object into the vagina of their dying little girl, but I can believe that Burke would do it. Given all the other signs we now understand better, I think he may well have been rather nonplussed, which also explains his response the next morning. It really didn't bother him all that much.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  6. #78
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    I don't think it was Burke Ramsey who used part of the brush to add injury upon injury to JonBenét's vagina after she was dead. I don't think he would have given this action too much thought, because he was just going on ten, but an adult would!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  7. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Another thing about the ligature. Kolar states that the cord was taken out and snipped in succession. I forget how and what was cut first. There was a burned end, and then all other lengths were cut in succession as the ligatures were made. Sounds like an adult with gloves on.

    Another thing. I think the stager(s) had to run up and down from the basement to the second floor and back down to get things...this is why the lights were turned down and the flashlight was used. It's also why, IMO, the light in the solarium was turned off for the first time the neighbor could ever remember. I could just hear the stagers: "You have to turn the lights off like we're asleep because if the neighbors see our lights burning until 2 in the morning, they're going to know it wasn't an intruder." The dim lights that the neighbor saw through the window was, IMO, the stager(s) retrieving things from upstairs. I've always thought it was significant that the solarium light was off and it indicated an "inside" job. An intruder, coming in through the basement window or through a back door wouldn't have need to be in the living room area, etc.

    And my belief is becoming more and more strong that the stager(s) changed their mind(s) about staging a sex crime vs. a kidnapping gone wrong. It explains why someone jabbed JBR and yet cleaned her.
    The coroner cut the cord from her neck and marked the ends where he made the cuts with black marker. I would hope HE wore gloves, but nothing in what I have read so far makes me think whoever put that cord on her wore gloves.
    The neighbor who saw the lights in the R kitchen window described them as "strange, moving, lights" in other words, EXACTLY like someone walking around with the flashlight.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  8. #80

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    Clearly, I'm off on a tangent all by my lonesome.

    Ah. Been there....

    But I have to try again, because I do need some feedback--the ideas of others to help me dissect my thoughts, to discard or enhance them. I've posted about this at topix, but the chance of objective response there is slim, so I'll try again here, because I think this is crucial.

    So, I repeat my thoughts:

    I think I've concentrated the events of that night to the issue of livor mortis, after the strangulation, being critical as to what happened next.

    Again: if livor mortis takes about 20 minutes to set in after death...

    If only 20 minutes passed before moving the body, and moving the body after that time would have been obvious from livor mortis; and if there was no indication the body had been moved after that 20 minute window:

    Then no more 20 minutes elapsed between the strangulation by the paint tray and the staging in the cellar room.

    What does that tell us?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Nothing, apparently.

    I thought I read "20 minutes" was the time in which livor mortis started setting in, but that's not what I'm reading now.

    http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/patholo...rtem-interval/

    'livor mortis' (post mortem hypostasis)

    Cessation of circulation and loss of muscle tone after death allows blood within vessels to 'settle under gravity', producing a pink/ purple colour in those areas of the body that are lowest, or 'dependent'. In a body lying on its back, the back of the body show hypostatic discolouration, save for those areas compressed by direct contact with a firm surface, such as the buttocks and shoulder blade regions, for example.
    The forensic significance of hypostasis is overstated in many textbooks, and was historically used as a means of providing a timetable for the post mortem interval. Modern forensic pathology aims to be evidence-based, and to provide cautious opinions regarding such phenomena, which are so heavily influenced by factors which may not be capable of adequate investigation, such as the temperature of the microenvironment in which the body lies.
    Hypostasis may never actually appear (for instance in infants, the elderly, or those who were clinically anemic in life), and Fechner et al (1984) found that there was no linear relationship between the time at which no further movement of blood under gravity could occur (and the hypostatis was described as being 'fixed') and the time since death. Suzutani et al (1978) found that blood was mobile, and could therefore move under gravity, for up to 3 days. Most forensic pathologists would agree that hypostasis was maximal/ fully developed after about 12 hours.
    The pattern of hypostasis may provide useful investigative information; if the distribution of hypostasis is on the back of the body, but the body is discovered lying on its front, the body has been moved after a sufficient time has elapsed during which posterior hypostasis has developed and become 'fixed'.
    When a body has lain on its front, post mortem hypostasis will devlop on the front of the body. Blood settling in lax soft tissues of the face can cause petechiae, and sometimes larger coalescences of petechiae (vibices or 'Tardieu spots'), perhaps with pallor due to compression around the mouth and nose. In such circumstanes, the pattern of hypostasis may appear sinister, and suggest that compression of the mouth/ nose (suffocation) had occurred. Detailed pathological dissection of the face and neck in such cases will frequently be able to distinguish such scenarios, but pressure to the face/ neck may not always be capable of being excluded.
    So what did the autopsy say about petechial hemorrhaging on the face?

    Here's another source, which states that lividity (livor mortis) starts at 30 minutes, but the timeline is much longer than I thought:

    http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/ri...-lividity.html


    What is Lividity?
    Lividity is also useful for this purpose. Lividity is the process through which the body's blood supply will stop moving after the heart has stopped pumping it around the inside of the deceased. What normally happens at this point is that the blood supply - or at least any blood that remains within the corpse depending on the nature of their death - will settle in direct response to gravity. For example an individual found lying on their stomach would be found with all the blood from their back heading towards the ground. Lividity also displays itself as a dark purple discolouration of the body and can also be referred to as Livor Mortis or Post Mortem Hypostasis.
    Any part of the body which has come into contact with a firm surface for a period of time - such as a floor or bench top - will show signs of this during lividity as this impression against the skin displays itself as an indentation surrounded by gravity-pulled blood.

    It is worth noting that lividity begins to work through the deceased within thirty minutes of their heart stopping and can last up to twelve hours. Only up to the first six hours of death can lividity be altered by moving the body. After the six hour mark lividity is fixed as blood vessels begin to break down within the body.
    So...the body could have been moved from outside the cellar door to inside the cellar room within 6 hours? Is that what I'm reading?

    So Patsy and/or JR could have "found" the body by the paint tray and had plenty of time to decide to stage/move it into the cellar room?

    Okay, never mind. I told y'all I should be on a long vacay.
    Last edited by koldkase; August 25, 2012, 7:20 pm at Sat Aug 25 19:20:52 UTC 2012.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Clearly, I'm off on a tangent all by my lonesome.

    Ah. Been there....

    But I have to try again, because I do need some feedback--the ideas of others to help me dissect my thoughts, to discard or enhance them. I've posted about this at topix, but the chance of objective response there is slim, so I'll try again here, because I think this is crucial.

    So, I repeat my thoughts:

    I think I've concentrated the events of that night to the issue of livor mortis, after the strangulation, being critical as to what happened next.

    Again: if livor mortis takes about 20 minutes to set in after death...

    If only 20 minutes passed before moving the body, and moving the body after that time would have been obvious from livor mortis; and if there was no indication the body had been moved after that 20 minute window:

    Then no more 20 minutes elapsed between the strangulation by the paint tray and the staging in the cellar room.

    What does that tell us?
    Livor can shift and dissipate within certain time frames. I spent some time with the Rebecca Zahau case (which is another case involving money over justice) and the following is an exchange between the chief ME and a reporter involving the victim who was found hanging for at least 3 or so hours, then cut down and placed on a lawn for hours
    Dr. Lucas: The photographs that I can recall of the top of my head, I never saw anything that would be inconsistent with the scenario as we understand it, so I didn’t see anything out of sorts, I didn’t see lividity against gravity and especially if she’s only been dead for a few hours lividity is going to transfer real quick.
    Reporter: So your opinion is that if someone had examined the body right when she was cut down and if she had been there for say three hours there would have been some noticeable lividity in her feet and once she lay there for a half a day then the lividity from her feet went away.
    Dr Lucas: Yes, the moment she was cut down if there was a photograph when that occurred it’s logical to conclude that she would have had lividity in her feet, probably her hands as well, but she was so fresh when she was brought down that that would have re-settled pretty quickly.

    (For those who are familiar with the Zahau case, what he said about livor mortis is true in general but he made some specific errors which I won’t go into.)

    Here is an overview of my research on lividity
    LM in its earliest stages has the appearance of dull red patches, the time frame is 20-30 min after death, but this may be delayed for up to 2, or rarely 3 hours. The patches of livor then deepen, increase in intensity, and reach a maximum extent and intensity within about 6-10 h, but sometimes as early as 3 h or as late as 16 h.
    After anywhere from about 4-12 h, the lividity becomes 'fixed' and repositioning the body, e.g. from the prone to the supine position, will result in a dual pattern of lividity, as the primary distribution will not fade completely but a secondary distribution will develop in the newly dependent parts.

    Here is some more on when "fixing" occurs:
    It may offer some indication as to whether the position of a body has been altered after it has become fixed (about 4 to 8 hours).
    Fracis E. Camps, Practical forensic medicine, pp.104

    After 8 to 12 hours lividity becomes "fixed" and will remain where it originally formed.
    Simpson and Knight, Forensic Medicine pp. 9

    After about 10-12 hours the lividity becomes "fixed" and repositioning the body, e.g. from the prone to the supine position, will result in a dual pattern of lividity since the primary distribution will not fade completely. Fixation of lividity is a relative, rather than an absolute, phenomenon, but nevertheless, well developed lividity fades very slowly and only incompletely. Duality of the distribution of lividity is important because it shows that the body had been moved after death. However, the timing of this movement of the body is inexact.
    Prof. Derrick J. Pounder., Department of Forensic Medicine, University of Dundee
    Last edited by cynic; August 25, 2012, 7:59 pm at Sat Aug 25 19:59:55 UTC 2012.

  10. #82
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    And as we know, JB had only ONE livor pattern. She wasn't moved around.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  11. #83

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    A couple comments about the livor mortis thing. After the headblow, JBR was still alive for (according to Kolar) any where between 45 minutes and two hours. During this time, livor mortis would not have begun, no? So, during this time, JBR could have been turned on her stomach, side, etc., without having any effect on lividity. It was only after she was turned on to her stomach, and the ligature tightened, that livor mortis would have begun. She was no doubt taken, shortly thereafter, to the wine cellar.

    So, I think, koldkase, JBR could have laid on the basement floor for 45 minutes or longer, after the headblow; could have been moved around or not at all, before the ligature was tightened and livor mortis, on JBR's posterior side, wouldn't dispute that.

  12. #84

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    Thanks, cynic, DeeDee, and Learnin. Y'all are so much better at this technical stuff than I am. ♥♥♥

    I can't remember now where I was reading that got me off on the livor mortis, but I agree there was only one pattern and that was why I was looking at the timeline between death outside the cellar room and being moved into the cellar room, where she lay for at least 7 hrs. before she was brought upstairs.

    She was already in developing rigor at that point; so she was laid by JR onto the floor near the front door for a short time, then moved by Arndt to a spot near the Christmas tree. She lay there until after 8 pm, when the coroner/medical examiner, Dr. Meyer, went into the crime scene. His asst. was already there, I think I remember.

    Then she was zipped into a body bag and moved to the morgue/medical examiner's facilities? Where she would have been under refrigeration until the next morning, when she was autopsied, right?

    But by then, the livor mortis was set, and so the white lines on her back we see in the autopsy photos are from her clothing, which would have resulted from her being on her back on the hard surfaces.

    I was looking at the autopsy report, and Meyer describes livor mortis on the right side of her face, pronounced enough at autopsy, some 30+ hrs. after death, for him to state it was difficult to see the petechial hemorrhages on her right eyelid? Did I get that right?

    Then there is that photo, taken by the medical examiner, of her in situ at the home, with her hands bagged. She appears to be lying on her left side in that photo, so she was turned for the photo?

    And her arms/hands, which should have been in substantial rigor by that point, are not at all in the position we so often have concluded from the "illustration" we've seen of her lying on her back, arms stretched out high above her head/body. Instead, in that photo, they're almost in a "prayer-like" position in front of her, like she was asleep on her bed, on her side.

    I can't tell you how that confuses me.

    For example, if she had her pillow under her head, while lying on her right side, after the head blow, her blood on it would be explained. It would have drained there as it ran down the right side of her face, as we can see from the autopsy photos.

    So where did the pillow figure into all of this? Found at the bottom of her bed, not where it would have normally been, according to Patsy herself.

    Since the bed was in the standard "made" position, as far as the sheets and comforter--with the blanket not having been pulled out of place, i.e.--the blanket has been deduced to have been in the dryer. Or somewhere in a linen closet or laundry basket...?

    Of course, none of this is what we've been told, so...I'm wandering around in the twilight zone here.

    And how does this fit into where the body was found in the cellar?

    I guess I'm wondering why Burke, a child, if he found himself "comforting" his dying sister in his own way, would look for a specific blanket, and a specific pillow from her own bed? If he were in the basement, for example, would he run up two flights of stairs to get "her" pillow from her bed, and look for "her" blanket? As opposed to just grabbing a pillow and afghan from a couch or chair on the first floor?

    Or was John Ramsey just misleading LE and his friends when he said "he"--the killer--didn't mean to hurt her, he put a blanket on her to keep her warm (approx. quote)? Meaning JR couldn't quite separate what actually happened from the staging in his own mind yet? Or meaning "we've staged the scene and you should think this killer cared for JB and knew her--an inside job"?

    Which is more speculation.

    But what I'm getting at, or hoping someone will see something I can't, is this: does the blood on the pillowcase found on the bed and the use of that particular blanket tell us anything?

    Does the fact that she had only one pattern of livor mortis tell us anything? Like, was the livor mortis set before she was even found at 1 pm? If she'd been lying in that position in the cellar for around 12 hrs, in other words, strangled around 1 am?

    More specifically: she was back home around 9 pm; she ate pineapple; she was bludgeoned; approx. an hour or two later she was strangled?

    Hey, what if she never even made it to her bedroom at all? What if she was downstairs, ate some pineapple, and then was struck?

    Kolar believes this happened on the first floor, I believe he said on the Peter Boyles show, right?

    He certainly knows things he's not telling, particularly from the grand jury.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
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