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  1. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I wonder if the blanket was in the basement dryer?

    I thought either Patsy or LHP said the heavier items such as blankets were washed and dried in the basement?

    I just wanted to add I've always thought that "garrote" looked like a toy. Something a kid would manufacture while playing with those items. It doesn't look to me like something John Ramsey would construct. That leaves Patsy or Burke. I've always had a problem with the notion Patsy strangled Jonbenet.
    I totally agree with you Karen. It doesn't look at all menacing in any way, but just a spur-of-the-moment construction. It never had the appearance of a killing tool. I think Burke could have made this. I really wonder how much of this he carried out himself.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  2. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Ah. That's it. RIGHT THERE.

    I'm no coroner. Nor am I a medical examiner. So this may be a simple question for others.

    Not for me.

    Why?

    Why would he break rigor in her arms at that point?

    There has to be a reason. As far as evidence, it seems like a bad choice unless there were a very specific need to do it. I mean, there might be bruising from that alone, right? She's clothed; evidence hasn't been totally collected from her body yet, so might be disturbed by something so violent as breaking rigor.

    Why would Meyer do that?

    Anybody?
    It was probably to have a picture to supplement his observation of the abrasion that he noticed and made specific mention of in the portion of the autopsy report that detailed his observations at the home.

    The body of this six year old female was first seen by me after I was called to an address identified as 755 - 15th street in Boulder, Colorado, on 12/26/96. I arrived at the scene approximately 8 PM on 12/26 and entered the house where the decedent's body was located at approximately 8:20PM. I initially viewed the body in the living room of the house. The decedent was laying on her back on the floor, covered by a blanket and a Colorado Avalanche sweatshirt. On removing these two items from the top of the body the decedent was found to be lying on her back with her arms extended up over her head. The head was turned to the right. A brief examination of the body disclosed a ligature around the neck and a ligature around the right wrist. Also noted was a small area of abrasion or contusion below the right ear on the lateral aspect of the right cheek. A prominent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck. After examining the body, I left the residence at approximately 8:30PM.

  3. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    [From the "Golf club or flashlight" thread]...I'm now wondering how this injury occurred(?) JonBenét sitting at the table eating her pineapple (?). I believe golf clubs were mentioned as Christmas presents. So they were maybe close at hand near the kitchen (?)...
    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Hey, what if she never even made it to her bedroom at all? What if she was downstairs, ate some pineapple, and then was struck?

    Kolar believes this happened on the first floor, I believe he said on the Peter Boyles show, right?

    He certainly knows things he's not telling, particularly from the grand jury.
    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    You're right, it was during the PB interview that he expressed that opininion
    Kolar: “I think she was struck in the kitchen or the dining room where the pineapple was being consumed and then moved downstairs afterward.”
    @3:00 – 3:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcBudyKeOFo
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    Interestingly, there was also a golf club found in the Ramsey back yard. It was taken into evidence, but we've not heard much about it.

    http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-evidence.htm

    May 9, 2000 - Live Chat with former Detective Steve Thomas on About.com

    crimeADM: "We've been told that the paperback will include several corrections. Anything of substance?"

    Steve Thomas: "One item-page 44, a last minute mistake - ballbat with hair on it should read "golfclub with hair on it," found outside on west side of house. Ballbat found in north yard ...."
    Adding these things up, I'm thinking possibly the weapon was the golf club found in the back yard and JBR was hit in the kitchen/dining room?
    Last edited by Britt; August 26, 2012, 9:21 pm at Sun Aug 26 21:21:17 UTC 2012.

  4. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Clearly, I'm off on a tangent all by my lonesome.

    Ah. Been there....

    But I have to try again, because I do need some feedback--the ideas of others to help me dissect my thoughts, to discard or enhance them. I've posted about this at topix, but the chance of objective response there is slim, so I'll try again here, because I think this is crucial.

    So, I repeat my thoughts:

    I think I've concentrated the events of that night to the issue of livor mortis, after the strangulation, being critical as to what happened next.

    Again: if livor mortis takes about 20 minutes to set in after death...

    If only 20 minutes passed before moving the body, and moving the body after that time would have been obvious from livor mortis; and if there was no indication the body had been moved after that 20 minute window:

    Then no more 20 minutes elapsed between the strangulation by the paint tray and the staging in the cellar room.

    What does that tell us?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Nothing, apparently.

    I thought I read "20 minutes" was the time in which livor mortis started setting in, but that's not what I'm reading now.

    http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/patholo...rtem-interval/



    So what did the autopsy say about petechial hemorrhaging on the face?

    Here's another source, which states that lividity (livor mortis) starts at 30 minutes, but the timeline is much longer than I thought:

    http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/ri...-lividity.html



    So...the body could have been moved from outside the cellar door to inside the cellar room within 6 hours? Is that what I'm reading?

    So Patsy and/or JR could have "found" the body by the paint tray and had plenty of time to decide to stage/move it into the cellar room?

    Okay, never mind. I told y'all I should be on a long vacay.
    The body could not have been moved during those 6 hours without creating another livor pattern, superimposed on the first..

    I know it is confusing, but remember just one thing- she was NOT moved or there would be evidence of it in a second livor pattern. She had only ONE- therefore she was not moved.

    AFTER the 6 or so hours, she could have been moved without a second livor pattern forming because by then it was fixed. BUT- by then rigor had started and it would have been impossible to put her in another position without breaking rigor.
    We seem to spend a lot of time on this one thing- was she moved or not. And it's been discussed a lot. But there really is a simple answer to this very confusing question. Keep in mind that BOTH rigor and livor mortis form ONLY AFTER death.
    JB was found in FULL rigor, on her back with her legs straight and arms pulled up in front of her.
    She had ONLY ONE livor pattern, which also indicates she was placed on her back in that same position within 20 minutes or so of her death and she was not moved within that first 6 hours. After that, it is still doubtful she was moved, because rigor would not have formed if she was handled.

    There is ONLY ONE OPTION for her having been moved and that was the "possibility" of JB sliding her body along the WC floor ON THE BLANKET from a deeper part of the room to a position closer to the door.

    The blanket was NOT pulled from her bed. Go back and look at the crime photos of her bed- you will see a bed with the head portion unmade, and the foot portion still neatly made. No one can pull a blanket off a bed and have the foot portion remain made. It had to have been in the basement dryer, where it was always laundered.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  5. #101
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Elle_1
    Koldkase,

    Help me out here, please. Many moons ago, I remember reading Patsy wanted JonBenét to wear a red sweater top and black pants to the White's Xmas party, 1996 , to match her own outfit, and JonBenét rebelled and wore the white top with the star. At this moment I'm reading page 124-125 and Kolar states the initial reporting by Patsy of JonBenét going to bed in a red turtleneck top had changed. Kolar doesn't state what she wore, but she was found in the white top- with the star.

    There is a photo on page 125 "not in colour" of the red top on the right side of JonBenét's sink, bunched up. I wondered if Patsy had been spiteful that night. because JonBenét refused to wear it to match Patsy's outfit, Patsy may well have put it on her out of spite and all hell broke loose, and Patsy lost it! (?).

    Haven't got the patience to wait until I come across more news about this red top, but I'm not seeing it right now. Is there any more mention
    of this?

    [/i]

    cynic:
    I hope you don't mind hearing it from me rather than KK , but the answer is no, there is no further mention of it.
    Thank you so much, cynic. Not another cheep about the red top and Patsy changes her story and gets away with it.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  6. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    ...For example, if she had her pillow under her head, while lying on her right side, after the head blow, her blood on it would be explained. It would have drained there as it ran down the right side of her face, as we can see from the autopsy photos.

    So where did the pillow figure into all of this? Found at the bottom of her bed, not where it would have normally been, according to Patsy herself.

    Since the bed was in the standard "made" position, as far as the sheets and comforter--with the blanket not having been pulled out of place, i.e.--the blanket has been deduced to have been in the dryer. Or somewhere in a linen closet or laundry basket...?

    Of course, none of this is what we've been told, so...I'm wandering around in the twilight zone here.

    And how does this fit into where the body was found in the cellar?

    I guess I'm wondering why Burke, a child, if he found himself "comforting" his dying sister in his own way, would look for a specific blanket, and a specific pillow from her own bed? If he were in the basement, for example, would he run up two flights of stairs to get "her" pillow from her bed, and look for "her" blanket? As opposed to just grabbing a pillow and afghan from a couch or chair on the first floor?

    Or was John Ramsey just misleading LE and his friends when he said "he"--the killer--didn't mean to hurt her, he put a blanket on her to keep her warm (approx. quote)? Meaning JR couldn't quite separate what actually happened from the staging in his own mind yet? Or meaning "we've staged the scene and you should think this killer cared for JB and knew her--an inside job"?

    Which is more speculation.

    But what I'm getting at, or hoping someone will see something I can't, is this: does the blood on the pillowcase found on the bed and the use of that particular blanket tell us anything?...
    Thoughts...

    If JBR was hit in the kitchen/dining room, PR/JR may have first moved her upstairs to her bedroom and laid her on the bed with her head on her pillow at the foot of the bed while they dealt with her injury and tried to figure out what to do.

    Possibly they considered dressing her in her red sweater for some reason(?) as they began the staging process. I don't know why they would, but it might explain why Patsy had that in her head the next morning.

    I think the blanket was still in the dryer, probably downstairs, because JBR's bedding was changed at some point between the 23rd and the 26th, per LHP's statement about the sheets. JBR probably wet the bed on one of those nights and the bedding was washed. Blanket still in the dryer makes sense.

    Based on what I've read re BR's statements and demeanor, I don't believe for a minute that he did any "comforting" of JBR but that's JMO. I think the stagers wrapped her in her blanket in the basement because that's where the blanket was.

  7. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    You're right, it was during the PB interview that he expressed that opininion
    Kolar: “I think she was struck in the kitchen or the dining room where the pineapple was being consumed and then moved downstairs afterward.”
    @3:00 – 3:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcBudyKeOFo
    Forgive me cynic and other posters, why is it, I can still see Patsy Ramsey in a rage throwing JonBenét head first against the edge of the bath tub or the toilet bowl rim?
    I wish we could have re-enacted this with a life size doll.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  8. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    The body could not have been moved during those 6 hours without creating another livor pattern, superimposed on the first..

    I know it is confusing, but remember just one thing- she was NOT moved or there would be evidence of it in a second livor pattern. She had only ONE- therefore she was not moved.

    AFTER the 6 or so hours, she could have been moved without a second livor pattern forming because by then it was fixed. BUT- by then rigor had started and it would have been impossible to put her in another position without breaking rigor.
    We seem to spend a lot of time on this one thing- was she moved or not. And it's been discussed a lot. But there really is a simple answer to this very confusing question. Keep in mind that BOTH rigor and livor mortis form ONLY AFTER death.
    JB was found in FULL rigor, on her back with her legs straight and arms pulled up in front of her.
    She had ONLY ONE livor pattern, which also indicates she was placed on her back in that same position within 20 minutes or so of her death and she was not moved within that first 6 hours. After that, it is still doubtful she was moved, because rigor would not have formed if she was handled.

    There is ONLY ONE OPTION for her having been moved and that was the "possibility" of JB sliding her body along the WC floor ON THE BLANKET from a deeper part of the room to a position closer to the door.

    The blanket was NOT pulled from her bed. Go back and look at the crime photos of her bed- you will see a bed with the head portion unmade, and the foot portion still neatly made. No one can pull a blanket off a bed and have the foot portion remain made. It had to have been in the basement dryer, where it was always laundered.
    Very good explanation, DeeDee.

    I think it's very safe to assume that, after the ligature was tightened, JBR was on her back, in the position we've all come to know, within 20 minutes.

    I think we are safe to assume the blanket was taken from the basement dryer.

  9. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Forgive me cynic and other posters, why is it, I can still see Patsy Ramsey in a rage throwing JonBenét head first against the edge of the bath tub or the toilet bowl rim?
    I wish we could have re-enacted this with a life size doll.
    I think it's still a possibility, Elle. The skull depression is higher up on the head than I originally thought so, while it's possible, I think it's more probable that she was struck from behind but that's just my opinion.

  10. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Very good explanation, DeeDee.

    I think it's very safe to assume that, after the ligature was tightened, JBR was on her back, in the position we've all come to know, within 20 minutes.

    I think we are safe to assume the blanket was taken from the basement dryer.
    I agree with DeeDee and Learnin.

    I've never thought the white blanket came from the bed for the very reason DeeDee stated, which I've said before myself. The bottom half of the bed COULD not have been left like it was, neatly made, if the blanket had been taken from it. LHP said Patsy frequently had the white blanket in the downstairs dryer. Most stackable units aren't built to wash big items like blankets.

    The ligature was tightened from behind while JonBenet was lying on her stomach, and her heart finally stopped it's faint beating. She was then placed within 20 minutes on her back on the white blanket in the "wine cellar." During that 20 minutes, the loose wrist ties were attached, and the lower part of the blanket was wrapped around her legs and waist. The small piece of duct tape was applied to her lips, and her head was allowed to tilt to her right right side.

  11. #107

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    I think that if the person who is a trained LE who has seen all the evidence and read all the Grand Jury transcripts thinks the head blow happened in the breakfast room/kitchen area then I'm going to listen to him. He knows more about this case than anybody else and that statement is the only statement he's made for a certainty as far as I can tell. He avoided making statements because he wants the reader to come to their own conclusions, but he made this one. And he knows about evidence he did not divulge. So that's what I'm going to go with.
    I just have to figure out now how it fits in with all the other evidence we know about.

    I think the red turtleneck top is not a factor in the crime. If Patsy said they had a little "tiff" over her wearing it then you know it was more of a fight than what she alludes to. I can see them arguing about it and Jonbenet wadding it up and throwing it in the counter top and saying she's NOT going to wear it. I think that top is a red herring.

    Another thing is Jonbenet had an awful lot of abrasions and bruises found in the autopsy. I haven't noticed anybody making much mention of that but i think it's significant. I think I even started a thread about it around here somewhere. There were two long purple bruises on her shoulder. Where did those come from? And she had a purple bruise outside on her labia or somewhere in that area. Sexual assault injuries aside, could she have gotten kicked there? It actually sounds like she was in a fight that night and she was on the losing end. She was actually pretty beat up from what I read.

  12. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Forgive me cynic and other posters, why is it, I can still see Patsy Ramsey in a rage throwing JonBenét head first against the edge of the bath tub or the toilet bowl rim?
    I wish we could have re-enacted this with a life size doll.
    Well, that was Steve Thomas' scenario, Elle, and many of us thought he had the most case information at the time, so it seemed reasonable. I always had my doubts about the force necessary to crack JonBenet's skull like it was - I just couldn't see how that would happen in a bathroom, with Patsy as the person doing the throwing. I also simply do not think that hole in JonBenet's skull would be caused in that scenario - that was a focused blow. A child would still have some degree of resistance to being flung around, even if caught off-guard.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!



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