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Thread: Child of Rage

  1. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    I keep thinking about JR's throwaway comment about getting medication for himself from Burke's psychiatrist, like a couple years after JB's killing. (You get more information from the Rs when they forget to lie.) I've always thought something must be up with that - Burke was in therapy for a long time, not with a social worker/child therapist but with a medical doctor, and that medical doctor prescribed sedative meds to a person who was not his primary patient.
    I think a normal family might go through grief counseling for a period of time after something horrific like this happened, but after some good therapy (and a lot of prayer and spiritual counseling), the members of the family would come to a point of peace. I could have used some grief therapy after my mother died, but back then, there was no such thing. Grief therapy was just "suck it up and move on."

    It would be very unusual for an M.D. to give a sedative prescription to the parent of his patient. Probably qualifies as malpractice, unless he did see JR at some point and has a chart, with medical history.

    Do you remember if PR or JR mentioned Burke being in therapy BEFORE JonBenet's murder?
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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  2. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britt View Post
    She was adopted from an orphanage in Korea at about 18 months of age. She is in her twenties now. My brother and sister-in-law were amazing parents, and she had the best child psychiatrists and they sent her to the best programs in the country to deal with her issues. I won't go into details about those but it was basically a variety of criminal, antisocial behavior her entire life. She also self-harmed and pulled her hair out.

    However, she never killed anyone (as far as I know) and didn't abuse her siblings or pets. She DID, however, abuse her child (whom she had as a teenager) and he was removed from her care by the state and is in a good home now (brother and sister-in-law have partial custody). The psychiatrists warned her family from day one that she would likely never bond with them or anyone, but they have never given up. Sadly, even with all of the specialized care, medication and superhuman family support she received, she was not "cured" (not even close). So what BobC says rings true for me. This girl's lifestyle is still criminal - in and out of jail, arrests for everything from burglary to prostitution, living with gangs and on the street. It's so sad and hopeless.

    It is my understanding that the neglect and lack of normal human contact during such a critical stage of development actually cause negative changes in the brain that are irreversible... or something like that (sorry, not a medical person and don't know the medical specifics).
    That has been my understanding as well, but I have seen some reports of limited success. BobC's experience tells him that the RAD kids never do get fixed, they just learn how to con in a more convincing way. That may well be true. I'd like to think there is hope of reform. Chief Kolar's book mentions reports that these "sexually aggressive children" can be cured, with a lot of treatment. I don't know what that treatment consists of. And I don't know what the real success rate is.

    I am sorry about your niece. I'm very glad her son is in a loving, stable home and shows no signs of his mother's problems. What a tragedy.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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  3. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    I think a normal family might go through grief counseling for a period of time after something horrific like this happened, but after some good therapy (and a lot of prayer and spiritual counseling), the members of the family would come to a point of peace. I could have used some grief therapy after my mother died, but back then, there was no such thing. Grief therapy was just "suck it up and move on."

    It would be very unusual for an M.D. to give a sedative prescription to the parent of his patient. Probably qualifies as malpractice, unless he did see JR at some point and has a chart, with medical history.

    Do you remember if PR or JR mentioned Burke being in therapy BEFORE JonBenet's murder?
    I have never read any indication that ANY Ramsey was in therapy prior to the murder. They went to church, read the bible, and attended prayer groups, but did not get any psychological counseling. I personally think that is negligent, due to all the trauma this family experienced prior to (and maybe leading up to, in a way) JonBenet's death. Faith is one thing, but trauma needs to be dealt with by professionals.

    John's daughter Beth died on January 8, 1992 (when Burke was 6). In DOI John says that he read alot about Christianity and life after death, and that her death strenghtened his faith and softened his character. He read some books, but makes no mention of therapy. (An aside about John - between Beth's death and JonBenet's, and during Patsy's illness, he was running Access Graphics, not a 9-to-5 job.)

    Patsy was diagnosed with ovarian cancer that had spread to her lymph nodes in June 1993, and began chemo in Bethesda MD on July 27, 1993. She was told the death rate from this disease was 95% in five years.

    During chemo Patsy left her family in Boulder every three weeks and flew to Maryland. I believe she received chemo for about nine months. She also had several disfiguring operations - including a radical hysterectomy, which removes all the reproductive organs and a portion of the vagina, and a laparotomy, which involves an incision from breastbone to pelvis so tissue samples of internal organs can be taken.

    In DOI Patsy only refers to Bible reading to get her through all this, plus family support. No therapy for her, who entered this "calamity," as she called it, a beautiful young woman, and became a sick, bald, disfigured, sterile, dying cancer patient. Her babies were six and and three years old, and their old mommy was gone. When she came back she dressed up JB as a sexualized doll, and ignored Burke. No therapy for them, either.

    After JB dies, Burke finally gets a psychiatrist. Somehow that seems to have worked, because he grew up, graduated from college, and is living his life. Cherokee mentioned somewhere that he's reportedly not close to Dad. No comment.

  4. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    I have never read any indication that ANY Ramsey was in therapy prior to the murder. They went to church, read the bible, and attended prayer groups, but did not get any psychological counseling. I personally think that is negligent, due to all the trauma this family experienced prior to (and maybe leading up to, in a way) JonBenet's death. Faith is one thing, but trauma needs to be dealt with by professionals.

    John's daughter Beth died on January 8, 1992 (when Burke was 6). In DOI John says that he read alot about Christianity and life after death, and that her death strenghtened his faith and softened his character. He read some books, but makes no mention of therapy. (An aside about John - between Beth's death and JonBenet's, and during Patsy's illness, he was running Access Graphics, not a 9-to-5 job.)

    Patsy was diagnosed with ovarian cancer that had spread to her lymph nodes in June 1993, and began chemo in Bethesda MD on July 27, 1993. She was told the death rate from this disease was 95% in five years.

    During chemo Patsy left her family in Boulder every three weeks and flew to Maryland. I believe she received chemo for about nine months. She also had several disfiguring operations - including a radical hysterectomy, which removes all the reproductive organs and a portion of the vagina, and a laparotomy, which involves an incision from breastbone to pelvis so tissue samples of internal organs can be taken.

    In DOI Patsy only refers to Bible reading to get her through all this, plus family support. No therapy for her, who entered this "calamity," as she called it, a beautiful young woman, and became a sick, bald, disfigured, sterile, dying cancer patient. Her babies were six and and three years old, and their old mommy was gone. When she came back she dressed up JB as a sexualized doll, and ignored Burke. No therapy for them, either.

    After JB dies, Burke finally gets a psychiatrist. Somehow that seems to have worked, because he grew up, graduated from college, and is living his life. Cherokee mentioned somewhere that he's reportedly not close to Dad. No comment.
    Just to double-check the dates - Burke can't have been 6 when Beth was killed, if he was still 6 in June of 1993 when Patsy was diagnosed.

    If I remember correctly, John was never with her when she went to Bethesda for chemo? What about her operations? Did she go through all of this without him? However you justify it, that he had to run a business, etc., that would have been horrible to go through without your spouse at your side. Why did she go all the way to Bethesda? There are great medical centers in Denver. Was it experimental chemo? At least she got remission for quite a long time.

    Thank you, wombat, for laying it out so starkly for us. I had never thought about the dates of these traumatic experiences. Poor Burke had been through so much in his early life, and who knows how the family dynamics were, even before his stepsister was killed. Maybe the seeds were sown long before that.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  5. #41

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    To clear up any confusion on the dates - Burke was born January 27, 1987. He would have been almost five when Beth died in the car accident on January 8, 1992.

    Wombat, thanks for laying it all out like you did about the disfiguring operations and chemo Patsy had to go through ... and all without John who stayed in Boulder. Her self-esteem must have taken a horrible hit, especially for someone who had always had their image tied up with how she looked. Imagine, a beauty queen who has been cut from stem to stern, sterilized and made bald from the chemo while gaining weight and puffiness from the prednisone. I'm sure Patsy didn't feel very attractive, and her sex drive would have been nil. At that point in her life, she would have been in survival mode. The house and kids would have been a lot for her to handle. Once she got to feeling better, it became important to Patsy for JonBenet to be the sexualized beauty queen - the person Patsy would never be again. JonBenet was Patsy's "mini-me," and it made Patsy feel good for JonBenet to win pageants and be considered the prettiest girl there.

  6. #42

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    I don't want to make this too personal, but just so it's understood where I'm coming from, I will tell this. I have never mentioned this anywhere else, and I probably never will again.

    Over the past year, Mrs. otg and I have been going through exactly this. She was diagnosed with Stage-4 ovarian cancer in August of last year -- she had a CA-125 of ~1,150 (normal range is 0 - 35), she had a tumor on each of her ovaries (each about the size of a grapefruit), and the CT-scans showed that it had spread to surrounding organs and tissue. Since then she's had nine chemos (each one takes up about 10-hours with lab work, Dr. visit, and IV treatment), three surgeries, and I-don't-know how many other doctor visits and consultations. There's no way she would be in any condition during or after any one of these things to be without me. So I do understand what it is to go through this. But I know we're not the only ones who have gone through something like this.

    The only reason for telling you this is because I can not for the life of me imagine a husband (or a wife) not being with their partner every single minute of every one of those procedures, appointments, hospital stays, or consultations with the doctors. I know what Mrs. otg went through -- the pain, the nausea, the sleepless nights, yes the 'chemo-brain", the mental anguish not knowing how long she might live. I watched her going through all our stuff -- organizing it and putting labels on it so I would know what it was when she was gone, and the whole time trying to smile and be brave for me.

    So anyway, it's not like I had a very high opinion of JR to begin with after following this case for so long... but knowing that he didn't even go with Patsy for her treatments, after seeing personally what it's like, just lowers him in my mind to a level that no one can imagine. I don't even know what else to say. I simply can't find the words to describe it.

    But on the brighter side personally, my wife has finished her treatments and we only go back to the doctor every three months now for lab work, checkups, and monitoring. Her doctor has declared her "cancer free". We both know that survival rates are not very good long term, but people do make it through this. The important thing is to make the most of what time we have here. We're all only here for a short time.

  7. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Just to double-check the dates - Burke can't have been 6 when Beth was killed, if he was still 6 in June of 1993 when Patsy was diagnosed.

    If I remember correctly, John was never with her when she went to Bethesda for chemo? What about her operations? Did she go through all of this without him? However you justify it, that he had to run a business, etc., that would have been horrible to go through without your spouse at your side. Why did she go all the way to Bethesda? There are great medical centers in Denver. Was it experimental chemo? At least she got remission for quite a long time.

    Thank you, wombat, for laying it out so starkly for us. I had never thought about the dates of these traumatic experiences. Poor Burke had been through so much in his early life, and who knows how the family dynamics were, even before his stepsister was killed. Maybe the seeds were sown long before that.
    From Cherokee:

    To clear up any confusion on the dates - Burke was born January 27, 1987. He would have been almost five when Beth died in the car accident on January 8, 1992.

    Wombat, thanks for laying it all out like you did about the disfiguring operations and chemo Patsy had to go through ... and all without John who stayed in Boulder. Her self-esteem must have taken a horrible hit, especially for someone who had always had their image tied up with how she looked. Imagine, a beauty queen who has been cut from stem to stern, sterilized and made bald from the chemo while gaining weight and puffiness from the prednisone. I'm sure Patsy didn't feel very attractive, and her sex drive would have been nil. At that point in her life, she would have been in survival mode. The house and kids would have been a lot for her to handle. Once she got to feeling better, it became important to Patsy for JonBenet to be the sexualized beauty queen - the person Patsy would never be again. JonBenet was Patsy's "mini-me," and it made Patsy feel good for JonBenet to win pageants and be considered the prettiest girl there.
    You're welcome. Whoops on Burke's age when Patsy got sick, he was 5 as Cherokee points out.


    She went to the National Institute of Health in Bethesda for experimental treatment that wasn't available anywhere else. She was young and otherwise healthy, they like people like that in trials.

    BTW I think Patsy and John had little to no sex life after she got sick, not that I can be sure about it. She was pretty much maimed, and I cannot imagine that they were adventurous/experimental/creative. Also their bedroom had no doors; what was up with that?

    From otg:

    I don't want to make this too personal, but just so it's understood where I'm coming from, I will tell this. I have never mentioned this anywhere else, and I probably never will again.

    Over the past year, Mrs. otg and I have been going through exactly this. She was diagnosed with Stage-4 ovarian cancer in August of last year -- she had a CA-125 of ~1,150 (normal range is 0 - 35), she had a tumor on each of her ovaries (each about the size of a grapefruit), and the CT-scans showed that it had spread to surrounding organs and tissue. Since then she's had nine chemos (each one takes up about 10-hours with lab work, Dr. visit, and IV treatment), three surgeries, and I-don't-know how many other doctor visits and consultations. There's no way she would be in any condition during or after any one of these things to be without me. So I do understand what it is to go through this. But I know we're not the only ones who have gone through something like this.

    The only reason for telling you this is because I can not for the life of me imagine a husband (or a wife) not being with their partner every single minute of every one of those procedures, appointments, hospital stays, or consultations with the doctors. I know what Mrs. otg went through -- the pain, the nausea, the sleepless nights, yes the 'chemo-brain", the mental anguish not knowing how long she might live. I watched her going through all our stuff -- organizing it and putting labels on it so I would know what it was when she was gone, and the whole time trying to smile and be brave for me.

    So anyway, it's not like I had a very high opinion of JR to begin with after following this case for so long... but knowing that he didn't even go with Patsy for her treatments, after seeing personally what it's like, just lowers him in my mind to a level that no one can imagine. I don't even know what else to say. I simply can't find the words to describe it.

    But on the brighter side personally, my wife has finished her treatments and we only go back to the doctor every three months now for lab work, checkups, and monitoring. Her doctor has declared her "cancer free". We both know that survival rates are not very good long term, but people do make it through this. The important thing is to make the most of what time we have here. We're all only here for a short time.
    My heart goes out to you and the Mrs., otg. I completely understand what you have been going through, as ovarian cancer runs in my family, and I was diagnosed with and underwent treatment for breast cancer as well. You are right, make the most of the time we have.

    As awful as it is, cancer, or any serious illness, brings people together, families deal with the treatment together, and EVERYONE needs to maintain their mental health. After treatment ends, you are supposed to go live your life, but your life is not the same, and you need to deal with it in healthy ways. All evidence indicates the R's did not.

  8. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    I don't want to make this too personal, but just so it's understood where I'm coming from, I will tell this. I have never mentioned this anywhere else, and I probably never will again.

    Over the past year, Mrs. otg and I have been going through exactly this. She was diagnosed with Stage-4 ovarian cancer in August of last year -- she had a CA-125 of ~1,150 (normal range is 0 - 35), she had a tumor on each of her ovaries (each about the size of a grapefruit), and the CT-scans showed that it had spread to surrounding organs and tissue. Since then she's had nine chemos (each one takes up about 10-hours with lab work, Dr. visit, and IV treatment), three surgeries, and I-don't-know how many other doctor visits and consultations. There's no way she would be in any condition during or after any one of these things to be without me. So I do understand what it is to go through this. But I know we're not the only ones who have gone through something like this.

    The only reason for telling you this is because I can not for the life of me imagine a husband (or a wife) not being with their partner every single minute of every one of those procedures, appointments, hospital stays, or consultations with the doctors. I know what Mrs. otg went through -- the pain, the nausea, the sleepless nights, yes the 'chemo-brain", the mental anguish not knowing how long she might live. I watched her going through all our stuff -- organizing it and putting labels on it so I would know what it was when she was gone, and the whole time trying to smile and be brave for me.

    So anyway, it's not like I had a very high opinion of JR to begin with after following this case for so long... but knowing that he didn't even go with Patsy for her treatments, after seeing personally what it's like, just lowers him in my mind to a level that no one can imagine. I don't even know what else to say. I simply can't find the words to describe it.

    But on the brighter side personally, my wife has finished her treatments and we only go back to the doctor every three months now for lab work, checkups, and monitoring. Her doctor has declared her "cancer free". We both know that survival rates are not very good long term, but people do make it through this. The important thing is to make the most of what time we have here. We're all only here for a short time.
    You are one very brave devoted husband, for sure, otg. I am so sorry your wife had to go through so much to stay alive. I wish her all the best and with a loving husband like you by her side, she sure has a good chance.
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  9. #45
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    You are a good man, O.

    Anyway--I am astonished that anyone would read my posts and suggest that I thought JBR gave herself the vaginal injuries. You are missing the point completely.

  10. #46
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    I will pray for your wife, otg, that she makes a complete and full recovery. Bless you for being there for her.
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  11. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    I don't want to make this too personal, but just so it's understood where I'm coming from, I will tell this. I have never mentioned this anywhere else, and I probably never will again.

    Over the past year, Mrs. otg and I have been going through exactly this. She was diagnosed with Stage-4 ovarian cancer in August of last year -- she had a CA-125 of ~1,150 (normal range is 0 - 35), she had a tumor on each of her ovaries (each about the size of a grapefruit), and the CT-scans showed that it had spread to surrounding organs and tissue. Since then she's had nine chemos (each one takes up about 10-hours with lab work, Dr. visit, and IV treatment), three surgeries, and I-don't-know how many other doctor visits and consultations. There's no way she would be in any condition during or after any one of these things to be without me. So I do understand what it is to go through this. But I know we're not the only ones who have gone through something like this.

    The only reason for telling you this is because I can not for the life of me imagine a husband (or a wife) not being with their partner every single minute of every one of those procedures, appointments, hospital stays, or consultations with the doctors. I know what Mrs. otg went through -- the pain, the nausea, the sleepless nights, yes the 'chemo-brain", the mental anguish not knowing how long she might live. I watched her going through all our stuff -- organizing it and putting labels on it so I would know what it was when she was gone, and the whole time trying to smile and be brave for me.

    So anyway, it's not like I had a very high opinion of JR to begin with after following this case for so long... but knowing that he didn't even go with Patsy for her treatments, after seeing personally what it's like, just lowers him in my mind to a level that no one can imagine. I don't even know what else to say. I simply can't find the words to describe it.

    But on the brighter side personally, my wife has finished her treatments and we only go back to the doctor every three months now for lab work, checkups, and monitoring. Her doctor has declared her "cancer free". We both know that survival rates are not very good long term, but people do make it through this. The important thing is to make the most of what time we have here. We're all only here for a short time.
    OTG, it brought me to tears to read your post. What a wonderful husband you are, and I hope and pray your wife is a long-term survivor - one who beats the odds. Thank you for telling us your story and how it relates to the Ramsey case.

    I've always held John Ramsey in low esteem for not accompanying Patsy on even ONE of her chemo trips to Bethesda, MD. I can't imagine a spouse showing so little love and regard for their mate.

    Wombat, I know you have been through a lot as well. Many of us here at FFJ have had health issues in the past, or are currently fighting them now. As both you and OTG said, we have to make the most of every day. Bonnie Raitt said it so well ... "Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste."

    Love and hugs to all here at FFJ.
    Last edited by Cherokee; August 25, 2012, 9:07 pm at Sat Aug 25 21:07:12 UTC 2012.

  12. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    You are a good man, O.

    Anyway--I am astonished that anyone would read my posts and suggest that I thought JBR gave herself the vaginal injuries. You are missing the point completely.
    No, I don't believe that! I swear! I must have written poorly. I think she might have been unusually focussed on her vaginal area because of the abuse by someone else. I shouldn't post about this sort of thing; I know very little about child psychology. I just think there were huge emotional issues in the household and this created psychological problems in the kids, but I cannot decently do a cuase-and-effect analysis.



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