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Thread: Child of Rage

  1. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    I don't want to make this too personal, but just so it's understood where I'm coming from, I will tell this. I have never mentioned this anywhere else, and I probably never will again.

    Over the past year, Mrs. otg and I have been going through exactly this. She was diagnosed with Stage-4 ovarian cancer in August of last year -- she had a CA-125 of ~1,150 (normal range is 0 - 35), she had a tumor on each of her ovaries (each about the size of a grapefruit), and the CT-scans showed that it had spread to surrounding organs and tissue. Since then she's had nine chemos (each one takes up about 10-hours with lab work, Dr. visit, and IV treatment), three surgeries, and I-don't-know how many other doctor visits and consultations. There's no way she would be in any condition during or after any one of these things to be without me. So I do understand what it is to go through this. But I know we're not the only ones who have gone through something like this.

    The only reason for telling you this is because I can not for the life of me imagine a husband (or a wife) not being with their partner every single minute of every one of those procedures, appointments, hospital stays, or consultations with the doctors. I know what Mrs. otg went through -- the pain, the nausea, the sleepless nights, yes the 'chemo-brain", the mental anguish not knowing how long she might live. I watched her going through all our stuff -- organizing it and putting labels on it so I would know what it was when she was gone, and the whole time trying to smile and be brave for me.

    So anyway, it's not like I had a very high opinion of JR to begin with after following this case for so long... but knowing that he didn't even go with Patsy for her treatments, after seeing personally what it's like, just lowers him in my mind to a level that no one can imagine. I don't even know what else to say. I simply can't find the words to describe it.

    But on the brighter side personally, my wife has finished her treatments and we only go back to the doctor every three months now for lab work, checkups, and monitoring. Her doctor has declared her "cancer free". We both know that survival rates are not very good long term, but people do make it through this. The important thing is to make the most of what time we have here. We're all only here for a short time.
    I know exactly what you mean, otg. I have a feeling that JR didn't have the ability to be present for Patsy. She would have had to soldier on through all of that by herself, with only his money to keep her company and give her support. It doesn't compensate at all. I wonder about Narcissistic Personality Disorder - they really don't care about others unless they need you for something, and only until they don't need you any more. And if you get sick, or something breaks, well, tough luck for you, ta-ta, they are gone.

    John Ramsey was not going to take a break from his business to take Patsy to her chemo appointments, no way. And the kids! My gosh, they were just little mites to go through that scary time with their mom!

    Now, kids are adaptable to an extent. As I said earlier, or in another thread, I really didn't realize that my mother was as sick as she was. She'd been ill my whole life and I just took all the hospital visits, pills, etc. as normal. I can clearly remember playing with a particular toy on her hospital bed just before she passed away. I was totally oblivious of what was going to happen. Completely focused on my own little wishes and desires. I just never thought about my mama dying. I'm sure Burke and JonBenet didn't really grasp the seriousness of what was going on with their mom, but since Patsy actually left them on a regular basis, and was sick when she got home, it must have affected them, especially Burke, since he was older.

    If JR wasn't paying much attention to the kids, they must have felt completely abandoned when Patsy got sick. And everyone soldiered on...obviously there were cracks in the pretty picture - the bed-wetting, the disorder in the house, etc. but Patsy kept up appearances, probably always trying to please her Ice Man.

    Your wife is a lucky woman. And you must love her very much. I hope she stays cancer free from now on.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  2. #50
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    I am so sorry to hear what you and your wife went through OTG. But I am so glad she appears to be so much better and I hope she stays that way. Yes, you are a wonderful husband (unlike our John) to stick by her. You did the right thing.

    And Wombat, I am sorry to hear about your cancer. I am lucky that I've never had any form of it, but then it seems like it is attacking so many people anymore. Wish they would wipe this vile disease off the map.

    I didn't realize just how much Patsy endured with her ovarian cancer. I knew about some of it, but not all.
    I despise the Ramseys and this is just my opinion

  3. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    I am so sorry to hear what you and your wife went through OTG. But I am so glad she appears to be so much better and I hope she stays that way. Yes, you are a wonderful husband (unlike our John) to stick by her. You did the right thing.

    And Wombat, I am sorry to hear about your cancer. I am lucky that I've never had any form of it, but then it seems like it is attacking so many people anymore. Wish they would wipe this vile disease off the map.

    I didn't realize just how much Patsy endured with her ovarian cancer. I knew about some of it, but not all.
    There are some things underway right now that will absolutely cure a bunch of different kinds of cancer.

    But oh, dear...please don't call John Ramsey "our John." That about made me gag.

    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  4. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    There are some things underway right now that will absolutely cure a bunch of different kinds of cancer.

    But oh, dear...please don't call John Ramsey "our John." That about made me gag.

    OK, fair enough. How about "Liz"?
    I despise the Ramseys and this is just my opinion

  5. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    OK, fair enough. How about "Liz"?
    Calling him "Liz" would be an insult to reptiles everywhere.

    Sorry, guys, I didn't mean to turn the conversation around like this. Thank you all for the kind words, good wishes, and especially the prayers. Like I said, I know I'm not the only one struggling with this -- or something else. I just wanted you to understand exactly how despicable JR was (and is). I don't care how important he felt like he was to his company, he should have been there for Patsy and for their kids. Who knows but what that if he had been, things might have been different. I won't try to analyze the dynamics of the R family. That's beyond my knowledge and not something I'm very good at. And I'm not suggesting that this one thing is what caused all the problems that were going on in that hellhole. But I know there were things going on with them that did not make for a healthy environment to raise kids in. I know it was beginning to show in little things that others were beginning to notice, and Patsy was beginning to see (even though she didn't want to.) Too bad they couldn't have stopped it in time.

    Okay, carry on.

  6. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    No, I don't believe that! I swear! I must have written poorly. I think she might have been unusually focussed on her vaginal area because of the abuse by someone else. I shouldn't post about this sort of thing; I know very little about child psychology. I just think there were huge emotional issues in the household and this created psychological problems in the kids, but I cannot decently do a cuase-and-effect analysis.
    Well, I was the first to make mention of the traumatized little girl stating that
    her vag. was inflamed because of her rubbing it. In no way did I mean that JBR caused the chronic injuries to her hymen, etc.

    The connection I was making was this. The traumatized little girl was sexually abused and it caused her to rub herself and this caused irritation.
    Could some of JBR's vaginal irritation problems have stemmed from the same rubbing, etc.?

  7. #55
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    [QUOTE=otg;192101]Calling him "Liz" would be an insult to reptiles everywhere.

    Oh geez, that's funny! You can't win no matter how you reference him!
    I despise the Ramseys and this is just my opinion

  8. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Well, I was the first to make mention of the traumatized little girl stating that
    her vag. was inflamed because of her rubbing it. In no way did I mean that JBR caused the chronic injuries to her hymen, etc.

    The connection I was making was this. The traumatized little girl was sexually abused and it caused her to rub herself and this caused irritation.
    Could some of JBR's vaginal irritation problems have stemmed from the same rubbing, etc.?
    I think it is more likely to have been caused by the sexual abuse she was undergoing. The autopsy report said nothing about vulvar irritation. Remember, the vagina is the INTERIOR part of a female, not the exterior. The vulva is the external part. If JonBenet's vulva had been inflamed, I'm sure Dr. Meyer would have noted it. Also, if JonBenet were disturbed enough to masturbate like that, other people would have seen signs of the problem. Beth Thomas was a seriously disturbed child.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  9. #57
    BobC is offline Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript and Book Reviewer
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    I know so many people with cancer right now--makes me very sad. You have to just live life and appreciate what you have while you have it. My beloved dogs Otis and Ellie both have cancer and it is breaking my heart.

    Anyway, Wombat I was not directing that at anybody in particular, just surprised that a few posters thought I was suggesting JBR gave herself those injuries. The field of psychology is in it's infancy and a lot of it is really philosophy. AND many of the "experts" are crazier than the kids they are treating (I could tell you stories you wouldn't believe). Still others are in the field for the money. I got really tired of psychiatrists making a pit-stop at our facility in their Ferraris, asking a few innocuous questions, and then suggesting we up the dose of meds on any kid who made the slightest infraction of the rules. It was disgusting.

    Back to the case. Bed wetting/soiling past a certain age are usually signs of high anxiety if there isn't a physiological problem causing them, like a urinary tract infection. None of our kids were bed-wetters. In JBR's case, it could have just been the intense pressure Patsy put on her. Did you all see that Patsy paid someone to mow their neighbor's yard because she was having a party and she didn't even tell the neighbor? Also--a man called the Peter Boyles show years ago and said he'd met Patsy and JBR at some pageant-related celebration which was outside in the winter, and JBR was in her skimpy pageant regalia. The man offered JBR his coat, but Patsy turned in down JBR had to be on display! And during the Boulder Tour of homes, Patsy had a Christmas tree in virtually every room. Now, there is over-doing it and then there is OVER-DOING IT. That get-up JBR wore with the huge feathers and sequins was another example. Pressure, pressure pressure. Everything had to be perfect and flawless and that comes with a price.

    Smearing feces on walls and a candy box is not a red flag, it is a signal flare. I am stunned that this has not gotten out before. To me, that was the biggest bombshell in the book. I certainly understand the need for an "island of privacy" regarding medical records.

  10. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    Calling him "Liz" would be an insult to reptiles everywhere.

    Oh geez, that's funny! You can't win no matter how you reference him!
    otg,

    It was Thor who christened John Ramsey Lizard lips many years ago, due to the fact that when John spoke his drooling tongue was on display. All the members of FFJ way back then sanctioned it. You can't take this away from Thor. She earned high praise from all the posters way back then.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  11. #59
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    Smile Otg,

    I am just reading your notes regarding your wife and her battle with Cancer. I am so sorry that both of you have had to endure this. You are a wonderful husband to go through this with her. Of course you love her and will help in any way possible I'm sure. That wasn't easy for you to tell us about. My prayers go out to you both.

    It points out just what a cold fish JR really was or still is. I've always wondered about his telling the story about helping JB get ready for bed that night and then doing some reading to her. He just isn't the "daddy" type at all. After she is dead his first thought was to get outa town. Really.

    Wombat I'm sorry to hear about your having the big C also. My prayers are for you to recover and live a long life full of happiness.
    "When are we going to get our heads out of the sand and understand that sometimes really nice people who look good on the outside are dastardly on the inside." Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, MA

  12. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobC View Post
    Smearing feces on walls and a candy box is not a red flag, it is a signal flare.
    Unfortunately, the dysfunction level was so high in that family, no one paid attention to the distress signal.

    A friend of mine is a consultant, and she happened to be in Parkersburg, WV several years ago for one of her clients. While there, my friend asked one of the people she was working with if she knew Patsy Ramsey. The other person said yes, so my friend asked about them, specifically about Burke. The other person said something like ... everyone knew Burke had an anger problem and that he'd gone to a special school or program for it when he was young. That's not a direct quote, but is a paraphrase of what was said. They acted like it was common knowledge about people who knew the Ramsey/Paugh families.

    When I started reading what was in Kolar's book about Burke, the first thing I thought of was that person in Parkersburg had said he'd had some kind of treatment for his anger issues. Furthermore, they were sure EVERYONE who knew the Ramseys back then knew about it.

    At the time the story was told to me, I thought the anger problems might be related to Burke's symptoms of having Asperger's Syndrome. People who score even on the low end of the autism spectrum can get frustrated and upset very easily because it's hard for them to adapt to change or anything that is not done their way. They have to be taught skills for dealing with what they sometimes cannot communicate effectively.

    Now that I know more about the turmoil in the Ramsey home, and the feces smearing and other actions from Burke, I'm afraid his anger and emotional disturbance went much deeper than an occasional outburst from an intelligent and high-functioning person with Asperger's Syndrome.



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