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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    When I first pulled up in front of the house, Elle, I couldn't believe how close the house was to the street and how close the houses were together. Just looking at the house, from the front, it doesn't look that big, but, walk around the side and see it from the back and it looks as if a lot of additions were made. So, while looking small from the front, it actually goes a long way back in the lot.
    I had the exact same reaction when we first pulled up to the Ramsey house. All the media photos made it look like it was fairly far away from other houses on a big lot. Not true. It's on a very small lot with the neighbor houses very close on the sides, and 15th Street is also not very wide, so those houses are close as well.

    To me, it felt like the houses were almost on top of each other, and that was especially true for the Ramsey house and their neighbor to the north. There was barely room for the iron fence that was later put up between the two houses (and around the front and other side of the Ramsey house). I think the reason for that was the extra wideness of Patsy's addition to the house. If they had left the house as it was, there would have been more room on the lot, and it wouldn't have been as close to the neighbor's house.

    I also couldn't believe how close the back of the Ramsey house was to the alley. The driveway was so short, it was almost non-existant and more like a slab than a driveway. That addition looks like a real monstrosity when you see the original, lovely house.

    By the way, the house is STILL for sale for more than $2,000,000 by the daughter of Robert Schuller. They can't give the thing away. I don't know why they don't reduce the price to get it sold. Maybe they're using it for a tax write-off.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    When I first pulled up in front of the house, Elle, I couldn't believe how close the house was to the street and how close the houses were together. Just looking at the house, from the front, it doesn't look that big, but, walk around the side and see it from the back and it looks as if a lot of additions were made. So, while looking small from the front, it actually goes a long way back in the lot.

    Thank you Learnin! This does explain it much better! If you come across Bob Cooksie's photos, please post them for me. I had no success when I was looking (?)!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Thank you Learnin! This does explain it much better! If you come across Bob Cooksie's photos, please post them for me. I had no success when I was looking (?)!
    Elle, they are in the Ramsey Case Files in the thread with other exterior house photos and house plans of the Ramsey home on 15th Street.

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...4&postcount=23


    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...5&postcount=24

  4. #64

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    I went back and read JR's '97 interview with Thomas and Trujillo. That's where he told them for the first time he broke the window.

    I'm going to quote a section that implies to me how he wanted the "broken window" as entry to play out.

    JR: Well, and that morning we had certainly focused on the cleaning lady. I mean she had free reign of our house, she had a key, she had spent the weekend, well, had worked there on Thanksgiving weekend, we were out of town. There had been some very bizarre behavior. Shortly before we left town, she called and asked Patsy if she could borrow some money, and Patsy said yes, and then she called, I think it was, I don’t know, Saturday, or something like that, and was crying and had had a fight with her sister, and Patsy said her sister was really mean and she hadn’t paid her rent and she threw her out of the house and then, (inaudible) happens. And ah, that was my first suspicion, and it was, I think that comment was kind of formed on just thinking that. And based on the room was just such an out of the way place that, I just don’t anybody could have walked in off the street and . . . Normally it’s full of Christmas stuff. I mean it’s just packed, you couldn’t get in, because we store all our Christmas stuff so, you know, it’s ah. I mean, based on what I understand, there was a practice not and all of that. Somebody obviously spent some time there, and I guess found their way around the house the same time, but my, I mean my theory is that someone came in through the basement window. Because it was a new Samsonite suitcase also sitting right under the window, and you would have had to, you could have gotten into the house without that, but you couldn’t have gotten out that window without something to step on. And to even have known those windows were there, wouldn’t have been obvious to somebody who just was walking by. But . . .
    ST: You talking about the window in the back, was not obvious?
    JR: Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, it’s not obvious, but that is to me because that is the way to get into the house, and we know that the grate could be pulled off and the windows were not painted shut and, you know, it’s just I guess that’s why we never gave it much thought about . . .
    ?: And we asked a couple of times that that grates kind of out of the way, and you have to, I wouldn’t have known it was there. I mean, you can’t see from the back alleyway, you can’t see from the front. It’s out of the ordinary, out of the way picture, excuse me, out of the way window.
    JR: Yeah. And when I went down and looked around the house that morning, and I think I’d made a statement or at least I read, I know I said this, that all the doors were locked and I had checked, I believe, every door on the first floor. And they were, appeared to be locked.
    ST: So the morning of the 26th do you recall checking all the doors, and they were locked?
    JR: I believed I checked all the first-floor doors, yeah. I did go out once.
    I went out to the door that leads into the garage to see if it was locked because there’s a bunch of boxes piled in front of it and you couldn’t get to it from the inside of the garage. So I did in fact go out of the house once, which would have been for, you know, half a minute.
    ST: And that was from where to where?
    ST: I went out the side door around to the back of the garage to see if that garage door into the garage was locked.
    ST: And then immediately back into the house?
    JR: Yeah.
    ST: And that wasn’t an excursion that exceeded 30 seconds?
    JR: No, at max.
    JR has changed this story many times, as a matter of fact, but this was his original version. He elaborated quite a bit on it in '98 with Smit's encouragement...and described a scenario of how he entered the basement through that window, on more than one occasion, he claimed, which I believe to be absolutely impossible to execute.

    So why would he want to create this "entry point for the intruder" story with the broken window, and then blow that up by claiming he broke the window himself...when he clearly is lying?

    Here's how I worked it out for myself...and I certainly can be wrong, but it's what I'm thinking at present with the new info we have to work with:

    JR and Patsy both told elaborate lies about how that window actually got broken. Clearly they'd cooridinated those lies before their LE interviews in '97 and '98.

    They could not expect anyone to believe an intruder broke the window that morning because the glass wasn't there. If the glass had been there, why not just go with that and let LE believe the intruder broke the window?

    I don't believe the glass was there. I believe the glass had been cleaned up by Patsy. Why would Patsy do that when she had a maid? Maybe because the maid was off for a while, or more likely, IMO, because the Ramseys didn't want the maid to know how the window got broken. Maids talk, as we all know.

    So what would have been so serious that they wouldn't even want the maid to know about it?

    If JB was seeing a therapist, if Burke was seeing a therapist...and we know JB was being molested before the night she was killed, probably for some time...

    We know she had her skull broken in half. She still ended up garroted in the basement, her body staged as molested, left posed in the cellar room, with a staged ransom note written by Patsy, IMO.

    Even though John had to eventually "find" it himself, that staging wasn't meant for John to find, IMO, but for LE or one of the kidnap party guests to find.

    So the only thing that puts all the puzzles into place for me is that the parents were protecting Burke.

    JB AT LEAST was seeing a therapist...AT SIX YEARS OF AGE. Patsy called Dr. Beuf three times in an hour after his office closed on Dec. 17th, yet neither she nor Dr. Beuf seemed to remember what was so urgent just 8 days before her child was violently killed.

    After the head blow, she was dying. Then for some reason, one or more of the three in the house decided to strangle her--an hour or two later.

    And that paintbrush...something else I read in Thomas' book I didn't remember, as I thought for years that JB was afraid of the cellar. But former nanny Suzanne Savage told police JonBenet "...loved to play and paint pictures in the basement...." (JB:ITRMI, p.46.)

    So looking at these pieces of that puzzle in light of this new and old, forgotten info, perhaps that window got broken when the children were playing and acted out violently there, and it was so alarming to the parents they cleaned it up and concealed it. When that violence later escalated so dramatically, their guilty knowledge led them to lie about it to hide the facts, facts those therapy records could have revealed.

    So the broken window was woven into the "intruder" story they concocted on the fly that night.

    Maybe there had been sadistic sexual abuse that night and the paintbrush was used; maybe it was only used to cover up prior molestation. Maybe the paintbrush was simply handy, something pulled out of a demented brain attempting to deal with the unthinkable, from a past experience or reference, in a controlled panic.

    Two children gone for JR.

    But Patsy only had two children. And she could have no more.

    Well, this is how my thinking is leaning, anyway. I'll stop here, because it's all so much speculation, and that's unfortunately probably all we'll ever have.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    But former nanny Suzanne Savage told police JonBenet "...loved to play and paint pictures in the basement...." (JB:ITRMI, p.46.)
    Iirc, Patsy too said in one of the police interviews that the children used to play in the basement a lot.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    Iirc, Patsy too said in one of the police interviews that the children used to play in the basement a lot.
    Yes, she did...though somehow through the years, I got the impression which stuck that JB would have been afraid to go into basement at night. (Clearly my memory sucks at this point.) Well, even a familiar place like that would have been scary in the dark to a child.

    Which could support an argument that if she in fact was in the basement, playing or sneaking peeps at Christmas presents or some such, when she was struck, the lights were on, the parents were still up, and things were not so scary.

    At any rate, reading that JB was in therapy, and her therapist refused to reveal to LE the facts of that therapy for a child murder victim, whose family were the prime suspects for a long time...and still are, for many of us; and knowing through Kolar that the Ramsey attorneys got Hunter to "permit" the Ramseys to have an "island of privacy" when it came to medical records--i.e., refused to get subpoenas for those records; added to the info that JB played and PAINTED in the basement; equals an even stronger argument, in my mind, that Kolar hit the nail on the head in his suspicions about the abuser in JB's life.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  7. #67
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    Default JonBenet in therapy

    Did anyone ever give the name of her therapist?
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  8. #68

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    I do remember someone saying Jonbenet was afraid of the basement. Maybe LHP? I'll look around in some books and see if I can come up with who said that. Koldkase, you're not crazy, I've read that too.

    So! We have facts here that seem to play out a certain way and it sounds pretty ominous.
    Maybe Jonbenet liked to play and paint down in the basement, but then maybe one time something bad happened to her down there and after that she was afraid of the basement. That could be the place where the sexual contact took place when she was previously molested. So it stands to reason she would relate the basement to that and not want to go down there anymore.
    Saying she was afraid of the "basement" tells me she wasn't really saying what she was afraid of. She was afraid of molestation that happened "in" the basement but since she was probably told not to tell anyone she could only say she didn't want to go down to the basement because she was afraid.
    Also a 6 year old mind may not have been able to articulate why she was afraid of the basement and what happened to her down there.
    I'm just thinking out loud so please chime in.
    I haven't ordered the book yet, I'll be doing that tomorrow. I'll give a review on it especially of course if it has any new or different information than what we already know. I don't know why but I seem to have this incessant need to possess any and all books about this crime. It's a quirk I have.

    ETA: The fear of the basement makes me think of two things. The duvet in the suitcase and the books that were given to Patsy by her family. I don't know why those two things came into my mind but they did.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    Elle, they are in the Ramsey Case Files in the thread with other exterior house photos and house plans of the Ramsey home on 15th Street.

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...4&postcount=23


    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...5&postcount=24
    Thank you, Cherokee! Much appreciated!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    Me too. Both parents were involved in the coverup, and while I believe completely that Patsy physically wrote the note, I believe JR helped to author it.
    This is where I have trouble, DeeDee. I can't see John Ramsey condoning this ransom note, but then again, crafty John may also depend on us thinking this way! (?).
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  11. #71

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    I think it's very interesting as to where this train of thought is going.

    I wonder. Did Burke break that window, before that night, by swinging a golf club? And, if the golf club was used to inflict the head wound, wouldn't the parents avoid stating that Burke broke the window with a golf club?


    If this be the case, then, John's story was concocted for two reasons.

    1. To draw police away from the real reason the window was broken.

    2. To lead FW, and LE, toward the fact that an intruder could wriggle
    through that window well.

    If you stop and think about it. You had a broken window in the basement. If it were broken before that night, police are going to quiz you about how it got broken. If it was broken by Burke wielding a golf club or some other type of break, then, you have to come up with an innocent explanation.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Did anyone ever give the name of her therapist?
    To state the obvious, not to my knowledge. Maybe someone else knows who it was...well, of course they do. Maybe someone who can and will tell us knows, I should say.

    It's the kind of information that an ethical detective would never reveal to the public in a case such as this, though, I'm thinking. But I bet Lou Smit told all his little toadies.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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