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  1. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I do remember someone saying Jonbenet was afraid of the basement. Maybe LHP? I'll look around in some books and see if I can come up with who said that. Koldkase, you're not crazy, I've read that too.

    So! We have facts here that seem to play out a certain way and it sounds pretty ominous.
    Maybe Jonbenet liked to play and paint down in the basement, but then maybe one time something bad happened to her down there and after that she was afraid of the basement. That could be the place where the sexual contact took place when she was previously molested. So it stands to reason she would relate the basement to that and not want to go down there anymore.
    Saying she was afraid of the "basement" tells me she wasn't really saying what she was afraid of. She was afraid of molestation that happened "in" the basement but since she was probably told not to tell anyone she could only say she didn't want to go down to the basement because she was afraid.
    Also a 6 year old mind may not have been able to articulate why she was afraid of the basement and what happened to her down there.
    I'm just thinking out loud so please chime in.
    I haven't ordered the book yet, I'll be doing that tomorrow. I'll give a review on it especially of course if it has any new or different information than what we already know. I don't know why but I seem to have this incessant need to possess any and all books about this crime. It's a quirk I have.

    ETA: The fear of the basement makes me think of two things. The duvet in the suitcase and the books that were given to Patsy by her family. I don't know why those two things came into my mind but they did.
    I like your little quirk, Karen. I look forward to hearing your review.

    I will be always be suspicious of the duvet in the suitcase, along with the heretofore unnamed Dr. Seuss child's book. I have always had this image in my mind when it comes to that: of the duvet spread on the floor in the basement, with the child being read the Dr. Seuss book...to divert her attention from the true agenda of the reader.

    Of course, that's just a scenario I imagine an abuser might use. But for the Dr. Seuss book, I'd never have given it much thought. But that child's book in that related adult's suitcase, with a dirty duvet with a young man's semen stain on it, near where the body of the sexually abused child was found...it's hard to dismiss as so much coincidence. It could be, but knowing what we know about this family and this murder, their trouble with boundaries, their propensity to deny and lie to cover their dirty secrets...it's just suspicious--to me, at least.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
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    3 Dimensional

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  2. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    Whoops, wrong thread, sorry.
    But while I have you here...I am a bit behind in my forum reading, so if I may ask, did you ever get to the question about the broken window? Is there any way to determine if it was broken from the inside or outside? I know you gave us the "break a glass bowl" experiment, but what I was wondering is if there is any way we can look at the photos and get a handle on this issue?

    Okay, I'm dreaming, I know, but hey, what else do we have at this point?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  3. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    I think it's very interesting as to where this train of thought is going.

    I wonder. Did Burke break that window, before that night, by swinging a golf club? And, if the golf club was used to inflict the head wound, wouldn't the parents avoid stating that Burke broke the window with a golf club?


    If this be the case, then, John's story was concocted for two reasons.

    1. To draw police away from the real reason the window was broken.

    2. To lead FW, and LE, toward the fact that an intruder could wriggle
    through that window well.


    If you stop and think about it. You had a broken window in the basement. If it were broken before that night, police are going to quiz you about how it got broken. If it was broken by Burke wielding a golf club or some other type of break, then, you have to come up with an innocent explanation.
    Thank you! Well done! Succinctly stated...something I am utterly incapable of....

    It's all that makes sense to me, Learnin.

    I cannot see any reason for the Ramseys to lie about how that window was broken. But clearly they did--to me, at least.

    Why admit you broke the window and then lie about how and why?

    In all these years, it's a question that has haunted me. It has to be key.

    Since we know no intruder came in the window, and since the Ramseys both spun that wild story about how it got broken by JR, what were they trying to cover up...again?

    There's nothing more normal than a child breaking a window in the process of playing around a house. Balls, bats, golf clubs, siblings fighting--which nearly all siblings do...what's the big deal if one broke a window?

    It has to be something related to their guilty knowledge of who committed this murder, IMO.

    Since the child was bludgeoned in an out of control act of anger and violence, as opposed to the controlled strangulation by ligature and then staging, it's only logical to me that the lies about the broken window must relate to the rage leading to the bludgeoning, or to the person who did that.

    Like I said, it's the only thing that makes sense in all the years I've pondered this issue.

    How could we possibly imagine how much the Ramseys had to lie about? If their lips were moving, they were lying! All these years and all the Team Ramsey spin about no history...oh, they had plenty of history. A six year old child in therapy? With all the pageant trappings? With a worried Patsy telling her friend Pam Archuleta JB "flirted" inappropriately?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  4. #76

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    Another question which has been brought up, and which involves something so unusual, most of us can't figure it out: why on earth didn't the Ramseys fix that window?

    I know in my small, beer-can collecting life, we would no more ignore or forget about a broken window than we'd leave a hole in the roof.

    I know the men who study this case with us are flabbergasted, thinking of things like small animals entering, the heating bill, etc.

    Patsy claimed she told LHP's husband to fix it, but LHP claimed she had no knowledge of the window being broken, so that's yet another contradiction in this story.

    The thing is, we'd have that window covered with something like plywood immediately and it would be fixed in a matter of weeks, if not days. My hubs would have done that immediately. That night. In the middle of the night, if that's when he broke it. Something would have gone over a broken window, even in the basement.

    I guess the careless Ramseys could have just ignored it, so busy with important things, etc. No rats or squirrels in their home would be a problem--just call the exterminator.

    So why not just call the glass company? Call one of the countless remodeling/repair businesses they'd used through the years when working on their home?

    I guess if they expected the maid's husband to fix it, they'd forget about it. Maybe they never spent much time in that basement, so never noticed the window wasn't fixed. I guess that isn't beyond the pale.

    But JR said Patsy smoked down there. She wrapped presents down there, even on the afternoon of the 25th of Dec., if memory serves. The primary laundry room was there, as well, and Patsy told LE she did a lot of laundry herself. So clearly she was down there a lot. I do laundry, and that's a daily chore with a family. I know they had the maid, but she was only part time, and LHP said Patsy would have JB's soiled bedclothes in the wash when she came in some mornings.

    So the question then would be if Patsy did tell the maid to have her husband fix the window, did the maid forget? Or did Patsy "mean" to tell the maid, but didn't? Or was one of them flat out lying? If Patsy told the maid, why didn't she notice it never got fixed? Why didn't she or JR bother to check on it? Burke's train room was where he and a lot of his friends played, as well. Was there NO adult supervision for them? No parental checking or concern? I'd call THAT neglectful and irresponsible, especially if one of them broke that window. Wouldn't you DELIBERATELY check on them after that?

    We do know the Ramseys first ran the bus over the maid. That morning. First thing when LE questioned them. That continued, so maybe saying the maid helped clean up the glass and her husband was supposed to fix the window could have been intended to point the finger at them for knowing the window was broken. But then, didn't the maid have a key? Of course, just planting the seed could have been the point, especially if they were trying to deflect LE from finding out the truth about how the window got broken.

    I'd say I hope the grand jury got some answers to some of these questions, but of course, we'll never know, so it doesn't matter.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  5. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Thank you! Well done! Succinctly stated...something I am utterly incapable of....

    It's all that makes sense to me, Learnin.

    I cannot see any reason for the Ramseys to lie about how that window was broken. But clearly they did--to me, at least.

    Why admit you broke the window and then lie about how and why?

    In all these years, it's a question that has haunted me. It has to be key.

    Since we know no intruder came in the window, and since the Ramseys both spun that wild story about how it got broken by JR, what were they trying to cover up...again?

    There's nothing more normal than a child breaking a window in the process of playing around a house. Balls, bats, golf clubs, siblings fighting--which nearly all siblings do...what's the big deal if one broke a window?
    It has to be something related to their guilty knowledge of who committed this murder, IMO.

    Since the child was bludgeoned in an out of control act of anger and violence, as opposed to the controlled strangulation by ligature and then staging, it's only logical to me that the lies about the broken window must relate to the rage leading to the bludgeoning, or to the person who did that.

    Like I said, it's the only thing that makes sense in all the years I've pondered this issue.
    Bingo! I agree 100%. I'm glad you brought this window thing up some time ago especially as to how John squirmed around when asked as to how he came through that window. It's clear that he never climbed through there and why would he when there's a ton of glass to be broken elsewhere without having to force yourself through that space.

    I think you're on to something here. It's clear the window was broken before that fateful night and it is becoming as clear as blue sky outside my window that Patsy and John made up a story to cover for the real reason it was broken.

  6. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Another question which has been brought up, and which involves something so unusual, most of us can't figure it out: why on earth didn't the Ramseys fix that window?

    I know in my small, beer-can collecting life, we would no more ignore or forget about a broken window than we'd leave a hole in the roof.

    I know the men who study this case with us are flabbergasted, thinking of things like small animals entering, the heating bill, etc.

    Patsy claimed she told LHP's husband to fix it, but LHP claimed she had no knowledge of the window being broken, so that's yet another contradiction in this story.

    The thing is, we'd have that window covered with something like plywood immediately and it would be fixed in a matter of weeks, if not days. My hubs would have done that immediately. That night. In the middle of the night, if that's when he broke it. Something would have gone over a broken window, even in the basement.

    I guess the careless Ramseys could have just ignored it, so busy with important things, etc. No rats or squirrels in their home would be a problem--just call the exterminator.

    So why not just call the glass company? Call one of the countless remodeling/repair businesses they'd used through the years when working on their home?

    I guess if they expected the maid's husband to fix it, they'd forget about it. Maybe they never spent much time in that basement, so never noticed the window wasn't fixed. I guess that isn't beyond the pale.

    But JR said Patsy smoked down there. She wrapped presents down there, even on the afternoon of the 25th of Dec., if memory serves. The primary laundry room was there, as well, and Patsy told LE she did a lot of laundry herself. So clearly she was down there a lot. I do laundry, and that's a daily chore with a family. I know they had the maid, but she was only part time, and LHP said Patsy would have JB's soiled bedclothes in the wash when she came in some mornings.

    So the question then would be if Patsy did tell the maid to have her husband fix the window, did the maid forget? Or did Patsy "mean" to tell the maid, but didn't? Or was one of them flat out lying? If Patsy told the maid, why didn't she notice it never got fixed? Why didn't she or JR bother to check on it? Burke's train room was where he and a lot of his friends played, as well. Was there NO adult supervision for them? No parental checking or concern? I'd call THAT neglectful and irresponsible, especially if one of them broke that window. Wouldn't you DELIBERATELY check on them after that?

    We do know the Ramseys first ran the bus over the maid. That morning. First thing when LE questioned them. That continued, so maybe saying the maid helped clean up the glass and her husband was supposed to fix the window could have been intended to point the finger at them for knowing the window was broken. But then, didn't the maid have a key? Of course, just planting the seed could have been the point, especially if they were trying to deflect LE from finding out the truth about how the window got broken.

    I'd say I hope the grand jury got some answers to some of these questions, but of course, we'll never know, so it doesn't matter.
    I, surely, have raised the issue, in the past, about mice and cold air coming in through that window. After seeing the break, and where it was located, however, I wonder if small animals would have negotiated that glass panel and climbed over the sharp glass? And, if the window was at ground level, there would have been a noticeable drop in temperature. However, it was several feet below ground level, and the break wasn't large, so I wonder if there would have been much temperature difference noted down there.

    I guess what I'm saying is that, in such a maze of a house (with so many rooms) and knowing how messy most of the place was, that broken window probably was not high on the priority list of these people. Probably something that was mentioned at time of break but easily placed on the back burner.

  7. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I do remember someone saying Jonbenet was afraid of the basement. Maybe LHP? I'll look around in some books and see if I can come up with who said that. Koldkase, you're not crazy, I've read that too.

    So! We have facts here that seem to play out a certain way and it sounds pretty ominous.
    Maybe Jonbenet liked to play and paint down in the basement, but then maybe one time something bad happened to her down there and after that she was afraid of the basement. That could be the place where the sexual contact took place when she was previously molested. So it stands to reason she would relate the basement to that and not want to go down there anymore.
    Saying she was afraid of the "basement" tells me she wasn't really saying what she was afraid of. She was afraid of molestation that happened "in" the basement but since she was probably told not to tell anyone she could only say she didn't want to go down to the basement because she was afraid.
    Also a 6 year old mind may not have been able to articulate why she was afraid of the basement and what happened to her down there.
    I'm just thinking out loud so please chime in.
    I haven't ordered the book yet, I'll be doing that tomorrow. I'll give a review on it especially of course if it has any new or different information than what we already know. I don't know why but I seem to have this incessant need to possess any and all books about this crime. It's a quirk I have.

    ETA: The fear of the basement makes me think of two things. The duvet in the suitcase and the books that were given to Patsy by her family. I don't know why those two things came into my mind but they did.

    You make an interesting point about JB and the basement. She wasn't afraid of the basement per se, but of things that may have taken place in the basement (molestation).
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  8. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    Iirc, Patsy too said in one of the police interviews that the children used to play in the basement a lot.
    I do recall that interview. I seem to recall that she was referring to BR and his friends who mostly played down there in the train room, and that JB didn't really like to play down there.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  9. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    I do recall that interview. I seem to recall that she was referring to BR and his friends who mostly played down there in the train room, and that JB didn't really like to play down there.
    And I keep thinking about that one interview where Patsy was asked about the basement laundry room. She was asked if it would be out of place for a pic of JBR to be located down there. She was asked if she (Patsy) would go fetch a camera if JBR was being "cute"?

    This tells me they found a picture of JBR which was taken in that basement laundry room; she was posing; and the picture was left in the basement laundry room. It had to be taken with an automatic camera, one which developed instantly. Why? Because, if it were a developed picture, then, an adult (Patsy or John) would have taken the picture. Patsy, clearly, didn't know anything about a pic of JBR taken down in the basement and said she would not have done it.

    This is extremely interesting with the discussion we're having about a therapist, the basement, possible sexual experimentation; the basement window and where the body was found.

    Obviously, this JBR pic was of interest to investigators so it had to be unusual; out of the ordinary; suspicious enough that investigators suggested this was a possible play room for kids....

  10. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    But while I have you here...I am a bit behind in my forum reading, so if I may ask, did you ever get to the question about the broken window? Is there any way to determine if it was broken from the inside or outside? I know you gave us the "break a glass bowl" experiment, but what I was wondering is if there is any way we can look at the photos and get a handle on this issue?

    Okay, I'm dreaming, I know, but hey, what else do we have at this point?
    Would it ibe possible in any form to ask J. Kolar (through Tricia maybe) whether he knows if testing could establish from which side the window had been broken?

  11. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    When I first pulled up in front of the house, Elle, I couldn't believe how close the house was to the street and how close the houses were together. Just looking at the house, from the front, it doesn't look that big, but, walk around the side and see it from the back and it looks as if a lot of additions were made. So, while looking small from the front, it actually goes a long way back in the lot.
    The house is listed as having 7,240-square-feet:

    http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_17443014

    Like you said, the front view does not show the additions that have been made in the back, and one may get the impression of a much smaller house.

    On page 7 (middle picture) of this photo gallery of the house and rooms (redecorated by Carol Schuller Milner), one can see what looks like an addition:

    http://blogs.westword.com/latestword...tos.php?page=7

    Did the Ramseys have these parts added to the original building?

  12. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    But while I have you here...I am a bit behind in my forum reading, so if I may ask, did you ever get to the question about the broken window? Is there any way to determine if it was broken from the inside or outside? I know you gave us the "break a glass bowl" experiment, but what I was wondering is if there is any way we can look at the photos and get a handle on this issue?

    Okay, I'm dreaming, I know, but hey, what else do we have at this point?
    You can definitely determine the direction of impact in a glass failure, I would say almost always, if you have the pieces. When something hits a glass panel, ridges form concave to the direction of the impact. They’re called Wallner lines:

    http://www.flachglas-service.de/en/c...ner_lines.html

    You can also usually tell if it was low, medium, or high impact. The basement window was plain old ordinary glass, non-tempered, brittle, and probably didn't need to be hit that hard.

    I would say that the BPD could have figured out whether the glass window was broken from inside or outside, based on what was left of the window on December 26. That was a common law enforcement skill even in 1996.

    Here's a summary of a 2004 FBI guideline on glass fractures:

    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/fore...standards7.htm



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