About that duct tape....

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    While reading Patsy's 1998 interview with BDA Hunter's team, for the hundredth time, looking for something else, of course, I found this again and think I better put it here for discussion, since we've only heard a million times--no exaggeration--that the Ramseys had no such thing as duct tape in their home.

    It's a throwaway line, really, but I remember another part of the interview earlier in which Patsy used a similar phrase she repeats here, almost as if she's rehearsed this.

    Let's review:

    From the 1998 interview, going over crime scene photos with Haney and Demuth:

    On June 25th, Thursday; page 0461 of the transcript:

    Now what did Trip Demuth mean by THIS question: Do you know who that tape would belong to? It's a weird question. If there is tape in a drawer in my house, I'm pretty sure IT'S MINE. Or my husband's. I think by asking his question as he did, Trip implies there is something important about putting this particular tape in a specific person's hands.

    And what kind of tape is Patsy discussing? Could it be paper tape, often called masking tape? Or could it be duct tape? Does Patsy know the difference? Let's see what she had to say about tape the day before:

    From that Wednesday of the interview, June 23rd, 1998; page 0398 of the transcript:


    So Patsy knew the difference between duct tape, masking tape, and clear tape. In the earlier Q & A about duct tape, she even says she HAD masking tape in her own drawer, related to sending boxes by UPS, etc. So this implies to me that tape in that drawer was DUCT TAPE.

    Then Patsy quickly threw that question to John, didn't she?

    But what kind of tape was in the drawer? That question was asked on the last day of this 3 days of interviews with the BDA's Office.

    I get the impression that the tape in the drawer in Patsy was asked about on Thursday was, in fact, duct tape.

    Ideas anyone?

    I'll post a little of what John had to say about duct tape during his 1998 interviews next.
     
  2. Elle

    Elle Member

    I am actully agreeing with Patsy Ramsey about the duct tape being gooey. I hate it! One really needs a strong pair of hands to hold it and tear a strip of it and be careful it doesn't stick to itself. I keep ours in the garage.

    More than likely the duct tape was in the drawer too, KK.
     
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    From his first day of DA interviews in 1998, June 23rd, Tuesday; John was asked about finding the body in the cellar room:

    Oh. I think I just figured something else out.

    Sorry folks, I'm all over the place. Let me post the transcript where JR describes the cords and the "hands tied behind the head" before I forget, then I'll come back and finish the duct tape quotes here.
     
  4. otg

    otg Member

    Wow! You go, girl. :thumbsup: You may be on to something. :toast:

    (P.S.: Check your msgs., kk.)
     
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    It certainly appears to be, Elle. But was it black duct tape? JR said he wasn't familiar with black duct tape. I did a lot of reading and shopping for black duct tape some years back, and it was often used for stage functions, like marking a spot for a performer to "hit" for a camera or a stage production of some kind. Colored duct tapes were also in full production when I was researching them, used for many other things, as well. I found multiple references to duct tape having long been used under clothing, specifically evening dresses or bathing suits, to "enhance" the figure, like bust lines, etc., in pageants.

    So I wonder if Patsy's and JR's "unfamiliarity" with black duct tape was faked to support the intruder story. Or maybe JR wasn't that familiar with it until one fateful Christmas night in 1996.

    But Patsy sure did throw that "tape in the drawer" question to John.

    Here's the thing: if that picture of that drawer was in fact of duct tape, and ESPECIALLY if it was black duct tape, Team Ramsey has had it, seen it, and lied about it countless times.

    If it's silver duct tape, unlike the black put on the child's mouth, why would LE question Patsy about it?

    I don't know the answers to these questions.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Okay, back to JR....

    In JR's DA interviews in 1998, I found 23 hits with my document search for the words "duct tape." So I want to look at those. There were 80 hits for the word "tape," so I narrowed it down using both words. I have highlighted in red "tape" and descriptors like "duct tape", etc.

    I'm going to keep adding quotes in more posts, so I won't work for an hour and then accidentally lose work or have ridiculously long posts--oh, yeah, you know what I'm talking about.

    On June 23rd, Tuesday; John was asked about finding the body in the cellar room:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9946

    Some time later, they got back to "duct tape": I believe the photo they're looking at here is the one of the blanket, where the duct tape had fallen sticky side up, and the tape was white/gray on that side, which confused a lot of us until we bought some and found that out.

    Also, I'm noticing that John was awfully confused about that black duct tape at times, then very precise, at others--like when he says it was cut to fit her mouth perfectly.

     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  7. Elle

    Elle Member

    You sure work hard at trying to find the answers, KK! You and all the others here!

    I've never had anything but the silver duct tape in our house. I don't like it because it gives me the creeps because it is the tape which is used on humans for criminal actions. The thought of this little girl JonBenét going home after a Christmas party and having her life ended the way it did was one of the saddest stories on record.

    Let's hope 2013 may find out more. A big thank you to Chief A James Kolar for writing his book "FOREIGN FACTION" and keeping this case before the public, and proving Patsy and John Ramsey lied about the murder of their young daughter, JonBenét.

    Just wanted to add I do have other tape black and white in the house KK, but it's not duct tape; however, this type of tape could be used to go around the body and stick on to itself, but it wouldn't actually stick to your skin (?).


    Both the Ramseys were lying!
     
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Continuing with JR's '98 interview, Smit and Kane were asking JR about different things and inserted this question about a bulk merchandise store and the purchase of duct tape or cord. Unfortunately, John's answer was inaudible to the transcriber:

    Looking at outside photos of exterior windows, seems John sees duct tape there.

     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  9. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, it is depressingly sad to think of the awful fate of this child, Elle. Even more so as I go through the interviews with her parents: the details of that night; the lies and evasions; the frustrations of knowing what we now know.

    But you're always so kind to take the time to respond with encouragement, Elle, no matter how much volume in words I throw at you. I hope you know how much we all appreciate you.

    I think I have some info, in my next post of quotes, related to your musings about tapes, which I bolded above. It's where John describes the duct tape found on the child's mouth.

    But I must warn, it is very sad reading.
     
  10. cynic

    cynic Member

    There’s not much doubt in my mind that it was duct tape, especially when the attempt was made to link it to Patsy’s December purchases at McGuckin’s:
    TOM HANEY: You don't recall making a purchase of either or both of those things, like I said, back in early December, December 2nd of '96?
    PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    TOM HANEY: Do you ever recall purchasing black duct tape?
    PATSY RAMSEY: No.


    "Earlier when White had opened that same door, he had been unable to see anything in the stygian darkness. John Ramsey was kneeling beside his daughter, feeling her ashen face. A piece of black duct tape lay on the blanket, and a long cord was attached to her right wrist. Nearby was a pink nightgown. White, who had never before touched a dead person, felt JonBenet's cold ankle, turned, and ran for help. John Ramsey picked up his daughter, who had been carefully wrapped, papoose-like, in a white blanket, and followed.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 29

    "By mid-February the FBI and the CBI forensics technicians had concluded part of their fingerprint typing and fiber analysis. CBI told the Boulder police that no prints had been found on the black duct tape that John Ramsey said he removed from his daughter's mouth and none were found on the broken artist's paintbrush used to make the "garrote" found around JonBenet's neck."
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 239

    Among the items on Patsy’s December 9 receipt was an item from builder’s hardware. The price was $1.99. On the December 2 slip there was an item from the garden department. It was $1.99. Duct tape also sold for $1.99. We had no way of knowing what she bought.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 136

    Originally we hoped to prove the black duct tape was from the same pieces found on the back of several portraits in the house.By determining the manufacturer, we might be able to find where it was sold and then track it back to the Ramsey house. We already thought that Patsy might have purchased a roll of such tape from McGuckin’s.
    The FBI lab said that both tape samples, from the mouth and the pictures, were a low grade and of low quality, possibly the Shufford Mills model PC-600, but they wouldn’t call it a match
    By September 1997 Detective Gosage and I visited the Shufford Mills factory in Hickory, North Carolina and learned that the duct tape was made in small quanties. In fact it only comprised 0.4 percent of the company’s product. We determined that it was sold at McGuckin’s
    Shufford Mills gave us various tapes for testing, the dates when changes were made in yarn and scrim counts, recipies for various adhesives, and the various production periods, all of which we sent back to the FBI. In November 1997 the lab said the pieces of tape came from different production runs and had different yarn counts. Same brand, same type, different production run
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 281-282
     
  11. cynic

    cynic Member

    John was certainly a very confused individual, soooo many things seemed wrong, or out of place. :D
    I guess he had heard that it’s good to distance yourself from any material piece of evidence in the case.
    He did the same thing with the Kleenex box, the bowl of pineapple, the tea, the flashlight etc.

    JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It looks like it. This was like in -- Patsy would know. I'm not sure why
    a Kleenex box is there either. That's not normal for a Kleenex box.
    LOU SMIT: What do you say about that?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I guess it doesn't belong on the kitchen table. I don't know where it
    came from, but that's now it aught to be.
    MIKE KANE: Do you recognize the bowl?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. I recognize the spoon, because it's a big serving spoon. It's not like a teaspoon. And that could be one of our bowls.



    … if you can, to tell me what you see there?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Well it looks like a MAG like kind of flashlight there. But that looks like maybe a plane or (INAUDIBLE) or something.
    LOU SMIT: Does that look like flashlight that you have or does --
    JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it could be. It looks a little bigger than the one I had. But it could have been the same one.
    LOU SMIT: Were you ever shown the flashlight?
    JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    LOU SMIT: Where does that flashlight appear to be here?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's on the kitchen counter.
    16 LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how it got there?
    JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    LOU SMIT: Did you put it there?
    JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I recall.



    LOU SMIT: Have you ever seen cord like that before?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-uh. Well like this no, this looks like drawstring cord that you find in a coat jacket. There was some laying on a driveway up in Michigan, some drawstring cord, and it was –
    LOU SMIT: Is that like the cord?
    JOHN RAMSEY: It's not quite this fat. It's a little thinner. But it's this woven.



    JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids like pineapple, but that's a big bowl and this is a big spoon and I can't imagine that the kids would have something like that at any time. Certainly not with iced tea, I don't think. They don't even drink iced tea. I think they do not. (INAUDIBLE) yeah. that would not be like us to leave that. Certainly not leaving the next morning on a trip, to leave it like that, out.
    That's a big bowl, whatever it is, if it's pineapple.
    MIKE KANE: Do you recognize the bowl?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. I recognize the spoon, because it's a big serving spoon. It's not like a teaspoon. And that could be one of our bowls. We had white bowls like that. Patsy would recognize it for sure. It looks like our glass.
    LOU SMIT: Who would drink tea with a teabag in the glass?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Somebody who would drink tea,
    I guess. I don't know. I don't drink tea. Burke will drink sweet ice tea. I don't remember if JonBenet did, if she did. I mean, even for someone who's there and to get out that big of a bowl and put that much pineapple in it and just leave it. That doesn't make sense.
     
  12. cynic

    cynic Member

    Let’s establish John’s knowledge of duct tape:

    JOHN RAMSEY: Well it's just it wasn't a tape that looked familiar to me, or it looked like it wasn't torn, it was cut perfectly, literally, that it fit her mouth. It was black, it wider than electrical tape, but not as wide as duct tape. I mean I know what duct tape is; it wasn't duct tape.

    So far, he says he knows what duct tape is and he is sure this isn’t duct tape.
    Does he know?

    LOU SMIT: I am going to show you another item. It's a roll of tape.
    JOHN RAMSEY: This looks certainly similar in color but it looks much wider than I recall. I tried to remember, I would say that it must be that kind of width.

    JOHN RAMSEY: Gee, I am having such a hard time but what I remember about it was it, it was cut squarely, it wasn't torn or wasn't too much. It was just a very properly cut piece of tape.
    LOU SMIT: That was your impression?
    JOHN RAMSEY: That was my -- as I remember it. But it was black, it was a bit narrower than that.
    LOU SMIT: Was it light in that room or how could you tell?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know. It just seemed light enough. And I don't remember if I turned on the light or not,
    but.
    LOU SMIT: I mean did you look at the ends?
    JOHN RAMSEY: No, just an impression, you know
    , and as I thought about it later, that's what I remember.

    LOU SMIT: Fine, we won't go into any more of that. But have you ever seen anything like this before? This is really critical, because our -- the killer left that behind, there is no doubt about that. It's a clue that we have.
    JOHN RAMSEY: Is this the size of the tape?
    MIKE KANE: Yes, it is.
    JOHN RAMSEY: I thought it was narrower.

    VOICE: When you say he left that behind, do you mean he left a roll behind?
    LOU SMIT: No, he left the tape behind.
    VOICE: Just the tape that we find that was on her mouth?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Well, if I were to speculate that's something that Fleet White
    would have, which --
    LOU SMIT: And why would you say that, have you ever seen anything like that?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Maybe, you know, I can't -- I can't remember for sure, but Fleet had -- when we got, went up to get our boat ready for this Mackinaw, Mackinaw race was a 300-mile race, Fleet had some special tapes, I remember white tape. And possibly I remember black duct tape. The only kind of duct tape I have ever seen a gray.


    LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE). We have to try to find that someone that has that. How often have you seen black duct tape?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall that I ever have
    .


    John is at his finest here.
    JR is shown a roll of tape which is the same width as the tape from JBR’s mouth.
    He claims that the tape that he removed was black, but was narrower, and despite the fact he doesn’t remember whether the light was on or off, he remembers that the tape “was cut squarely, it wasn't torn or wasn't too much. It was just a very properly cut piece of tape.”
    He further claims that the only duct tape he has ever seen is grey, and that he has never seen black duct tape.
    And then, to top it all off, he casts suspicion on Fleet.

    It was a standard black duct tape, here is Henry Lee speaking about it:
    KURTIS: Dr. Lee, didn't you take a look at some tape in the JonBenet Ramsey case, reexamine it?
    LEE: Yes. Yes, I did. Yes.
    KURTIS: And there was nothing became of that.
    LEE: Well, that's a two-inch tape and it's been used. It's not like the Laci Peterson case, which, as I say, I cannot comment too much on that.
    http://edition.cnn.hu/TRANSCRIPTS/0311/03/lkl.00.html
     
  13. cynic

    cynic Member

    I have a different take on the well known blanket picture.
    I believe there is a good possibility that the “silver/white/grey†seen there is an overexposed shadow.

    [​IMG]


    Here is picture I took to try to replicate what I believe was happening.


    [​IMG]
     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Wow, cynic! I got caught up in reading the transcript...again...and you've done all the work. I may put that fruit basket back in storage for the time being. :rolling:

    I have some very interesting quotes from this interview I'd like to bring into this later in the thread, regarding the cord--which lead me to believe "someone" told LE John owned cord like that used on the child, and I'm thinking it may have been Fleet White, as much as Team Ramsey has tried to ruin him through the years.

    For now, I'm going to post the section I was just studying though you've posted most already with your observations. If I stop to study your posts I will lose my thoughts with the excerpt I'm working on, so sorry to repeat.

    Mainly I want to include where John implicates Fleet White into it...again. JR is ALL OVER THE PLACE with this duct tape--he knows it, has it, used it, no he doesn't and he hasn't, maybe, but Fleet does, Patsy may or may not, it looks different, but he remembers exact details like how sticky it was when he pulled it off the body, how the edges were cut but not torn....

    You've probably pointed all this out, as well, but in case not, I'll just put this here and come back and delete later.

    BECAUSE THIS IS WILD:

    [It's all about the duct tape so I won't distract by using red highlights.]

    Here is an evidence photos of the duct tape JR took of the child's mouth, white/gray side shown:
    [​IMG]
     
  15. Elle

    Elle Member

    Yes, KK and cynic, I noticed John was confused about the black tape. I thought over the years, Patsy and John kept putting their foot in it forgetting what they had said before!

    Thank you for all your posts. Way back when I first started I did more research with my books than I do now, so this is why I do appreciate the time taken by you, KK and the others who post all this valuable information. You sure keep us all updated!

    I noted vey quickly, where he implicates Fleet White. Crafty! He reached the top of the pyramid in business because he was a crafty son-of-a-gun!
     
  16. cynic

    cynic Member

    Hey wait a minute, what do you mean, may and time being???
    I pointed out that John tried to cast the long shadow of suspicion on Fleet, but you have included more context.
    It is.
     
  17. cynic

    cynic Member

    Hey Elle, thanks. :)

    The blame game was rampant in those interviews.
    I find it amusing that essentially what happened with the tape questioning was this:
    Question: Who’s tape is this?
    Patsy: Not mine, ask John.
    John: Not mine, ask Fleet White
     
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    It's smaller, not as wide, not as sticky, either! After all, JR spent a total of half a second with that duct tape, according to his story, so he'd know.

    And he had half a second to notice how sticky it was, the width and weight, too, plus how it was cut, not torn. So glad Lou "WORLD-CLASS DETECTIVE" Smit noticed things like how implausible JR's story was, yet managed to dismiss it ALL and declare the Ramseys innocent! INNOCENT, HE SAID!!

    Oh, good, then the Whites are out of the suspect pool because JR only ever saw gray duct tape...except possibly Fleet had black...which JR never saw.


    You pretty much hit the high...low?...points, cynic.

    Patsy was down with the duct tape spin in classic Southern Foreign Faction style when she said didn't know nothing 'bout no duct tape, ask Mr. John Ramsey, please!

    She and JR brought the poor Whites into it every single chance they got. And why not? Clearly the Whites had given up much info on the Ramseys which Team Ramsey wanted to counter in a potential trial by pointing the finger...AT THE WHITES.

    Which brings me to something you mentioned: the questions about the cord.

    And I want to address that part about the cord in another post.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Perhaps I need to point out I'm a card-carrying member of the SFF. We have standards. Turning soft isn't one of them.

    Remember our fearless leader: [​IMG]
     
  20. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    It's an interesting idea. I see your point. It's a tough one.

    To cast such a shadow, the object casting the shadow would have to be between the lighting and the blanket, as you know. I don't see any extension of that shadow which would indicate the rectangular object was held up between the light source and the blanket, so I can't get a clear idea of what you're imagining.

    But I did buy some black duct tape at a Wal-Mart or maybe Lowe's, at the time--we're talking maybe 10 years ago? The black duct tape had a grayish/whitish/silverish color, or lack thereof, on the sticky side, with the lines of the weave just as that in the close-up of the actual light side of the tape I included.

    It's a cloth tape, you no doubt know.

    Because of this, once I had similar tape in my hands, I had no problem concluding that tape on the blanket was the actual duct tape from the mouth.

    But of course, I could be wrong.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
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