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Thread: Arms in rigor 2

  1. #13

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    I certainly could be wrong (it has happened), but I believe the boxer’s position (or pugilistic position, or equestrian position) referred to above is more a reaction to heat than a normal body response during rigor mortis. It is fairly uncommon unless a person has maybe died in a house fire or their body exposed in some way to extreme heat.

    After Joseph Goebbels and his wife killed their six children and then themselves, his aides tried to burn his body. Because of an insufficient amount of fuel, his body wasn’t completely burned. It was found bent at the waist and knees with one arm raised showing an outstretched hand. Soldiers who found the body joked that he looked like he was riding a horse (equestrian position) and “seig heiling” in death. (I’m not making this up.)

    Extreme heat causes rapid drying of the muscle tissue and tendons, therefore shrinkage -- which results in contraction of the limbs. If you’ve ever cooked some kind of meat (muscle tissue) in the oven and seen it curl one way or another, you’ve seen this very thing happen because of the difference in the rate of shrinkage.

    I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t think the position of JonBenet’s arms had anything to do with anything other than their having been in that position during the process of rigor mortis.

    But then.... I could be wrong.
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  2. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    I certainly could be wrong (it has happened), but I believe the boxer’s position (or pugilistic position, or equestrian position) referred to above is more a reaction to heat than a normal body response during rigor mortis. It is fairly uncommon unless a person has maybe died in a house fire or their body exposed in some way to extreme heat.

    After Joseph Goebbels and his wife killed their six children and then themselves, his aides tried to burn his body. Because of an insufficient amount of fuel, his body wasn’t completely burned. It was found bent at the waist and knees with one arm raised showing an outstretched hand. Soldiers who found the body joked that he looked like he was riding a horse (equestrian position) and “seig heiling” in death. (I’m not making this up.)

    Extreme heat causes rapid drying of the muscle tissue and tendons, therefore shrinkage -- which results in contraction of the limbs. If you’ve ever cooked some kind of meat (muscle tissue) in the oven and seen it curl one way or another, you’ve seen this very thing happen because of the difference in the rate of shrinkage.

    I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t think the position of JonBenet’s arms had anything to do with anything other than their having been in that position during the process of rigor mortis.

    But then.... I could be wrong.
    Now that you mention it, I do remember "boxing position" of the arms being mentioned as an element of someone dying in a fire.

    Thanks for bringing that up.

    I'm just so confused at this point about the position of the body in rigor, I can't get it in my head how that photo of the bagged hands compares with such a different position illustrated in the "drawing" many of us had relied on for years. The description in the autopsy is also vague enough that I can't figure out the discrepancy, either.

    It makes me wonder if the drawing was based on a bad interpretation of the description and we've simply mistakenly thought it was correct for so many years.

    It's frustrating to waste so much time on misinformation.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
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  3. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Now that you mention it, I do remember "boxing position" of the arms being mentioned as an element of someone dying in a fire.

    Thanks for bringing that up.

    I'm just so confused at this point about the position of the body in rigor, I can't get it in my head how that photo of the bagged hands compares with such a different position illustrated in the "drawing" many of us had relied on for years. The description in the autopsy is also vague enough that I can't figure out the discrepancy, either.

    It makes me wonder if the drawing was based on a bad interpretation of the description and we've simply mistakenly thought it was correct for so many years.

    It's frustrating to waste so much time on misinformation.
    Yes, I think that's exactly the problem, KK. We have had no access to the real information and so we've had to play detective with what little we had access to, including that very famous depiction of JonBenet with her arms right up over her head, and obviously NOT in any sort of rigor. It looks as if she'd just passed away...well, actually, no, it looks as if she is sleeping, not even dead. I'm 100% sure her rigid body looked NOTHING like that drawing. She had livor mortis, was cold, her lips were blue, her feet must have been dead white. Somewhat surprised the tabloids didn't go for the sensational and have the artist draw her body as it must have looked!

    :(
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  4. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    Yes, KK - the "boxer's" position (arms pulled up, bent at the elbow). The process of rigor "pulls" the arms into this position in many cases- they need not be kept in that position as it forms. In think in JB's case, they were possibly at her sides or across her lower abdomen or even bent at the elbow, wrists near her chin or ears. Either position would have allowed them to be pulled up into the position in the photo, as the muscles contracted tighter and tighter, caused by the chemical process of rigor mortis.
    Livor mortis is not a chemical process, per se. It is simply gravity acting on liquid inside the body. Livor forms rather quickly, and in JB's case there is no evidence the body was moved (at least not during the UNfixed time). But by the time livor was fixed, rigor will have progressed significantly, making the possibility that the body was moved very remote. She could have been moved from deeper in the wineceller to a place nearer the door without disturbing rigor or livor if she was merely pulled along the floor on the blanket until she was close enough to be seen when someone opened the door. I believe this is what may have happened when JR "disappeared" that morning for 2 hours. He was rearranging the crime scene. And I think this made FW sit up and take notice, as he had looked in there and seen nothing. I think she was in there, but deeper into he room.
    Oh my gosh, it sure WOULD make FW take notice!!! He would then KNOW for sure that the Ramseys not only knew that JonBenet was dead, but that someone in the family had gone into that room and moved her closer to the door so she could be "found" at last. That would explain why JR and PR started distancing themselves from the Whites and tossing them under the bus at every opportunity - as well as possibly threatening them with legal action - because they knew that Fleet's testimony could destroy their entire house of lies.

    But didn't Fleet testify in front of the grand jury? If he told the truth about that morning, why wouldn't the grand jury vote to indict?

    God how I hate Boulder Colorado.
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  5. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    It makes me wonder if the drawing was based on a bad interpretation of the description and we've simply mistakenly thought it was correct for so many years.
    I've always thought the artist's rendition was just that ... an artist's rendition of what they thought JonBenet's body looked like from the words spoken by John. (Some details, like the bracelet, were added from the short version of Meyer's autopsy report.) I never believed it was an eyewitness image or even that accurate. In fact, do we even know where this artist rendition originally came from?

    If you look at the photo taken of JonBenet lying on her side with her arms bent up next to her face, and you take that image and turn it on its back in your mind, then JonBenet's arms ARE up over and "above" her head. I think that is what John was describing as JonBenet's arms being "above" her head - in the vertical plane above her, not the horizontal plane on the floor. Does that make sense?

  6. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    I've always thought the artist's rendition was just that ... an artist's rendition of what they thought JonBenet's body looked like from the words spoken by John. (Some details, like the bracelet, were added from the short version of Meyer's autopsy report.) I never believed it was an eyewitness image or even that accurate. In fact, do we even know where this artist rendition originally came from?

    If you look at the photo taken of JonBenet lying on her side with her arms bent up next to her face, and you take that image and turn it on its back in your mind, then JonBenet's arms ARE up over and "above" her head. I think that is what John was describing as JonBenet's arms being "above" her head - in the vertical plane above her, not the horizontal plane on the floor. Does that make sense?
    Yeah, that's exactly what I'm wondering myself.

    So...how did those hands/arms get in THAT position? They had to be either "tied up" to put them there, someway, frozen in rigor eventually, OR she froze in rigor on her side...in which case, the body was either moved or there's a huge missing piece of the puzzle here.

    And we've been deliberately misled...if by omission...all these years.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
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  7. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    Yes, I think that's exactly the problem, KK. We have had no access to the real information and so we've had to play detective with what little we had access to, including that very famous depiction of JonBenet with her arms right up over her head, and obviously NOT in any sort of rigor. It looks as if she'd just passed away...well, actually, no, it looks as if she is sleeping, not even dead. I'm 100% sure her rigid body looked NOTHING like that drawing. She had livor mortis, was cold, her lips were blue, her feet must have been dead white. Somewhat surprised the tabloids didn't go for the sensational and have the artist draw her body as it must have looked!

    :(
    Oh, those autopsy/crime scene photos have dispelled any "romantic" depiction anyone might have ever had about the brutal murder of this child.

    I will never understand, TO THE DAY I DIE, how the Ramseys were not INSANE over Lou Smit publishing those photos.

    The fact that they had no problem with that tells me exactly what they cared about--having disinformation spread and themselves cast as poor victims.

    And the "intruder" gets a high five from Team Ramsey.

    Honestly, I've always believed that jams and Lou Smit got their "compensation" with the blessings of the Ramseys, who have made a fortune off of photos of JonBenet sold to the "news organizations" paying for them while "not paying for the Ramsey interviews."

    It's nothing but a play on words. They all made A BOATLOAD of money off of this murdered child.

    I curse them all.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
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  8. #20

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    Sometimes the injustice and corruption of this case make me a little crazy.
    Last edited by koldkase; January 4, 2013, 11:32 pm at Fri Jan 4 23:32:06 UTC 2013.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  9. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Yeah, that's exactly what I'm wondering myself.

    So...how did those hands/arms get in THAT position? They had to be either "tied up" to put them there, someway, frozen in rigor eventually, OR she froze in rigor on her side...in which case, the body was either moved or there's a huge missing piece of the puzzle here.

    And we've been deliberately misled...if by omission...all these years.
    No, I don't think she was necessarily on her side. Dee Dee said that she could have been lying on her back, and her muscles simply contracted her arms into that "boxer" position. When she was laid down on the floor upstairs, they could have put her on her side at that point, even though she had been on her back in the cellar. She just didn't have a front-on photo taken. Or if she did, we never saw it.
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  10. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    No, I don't think she was necessarily on her side. Dee Dee said that she could have been lying on her back, and her muscles simply contracted her arms into that "boxer" position. When she was laid down on the floor upstairs, they could have put her on her side at that point, even though she had been on her back in the cellar. She just didn't have a front-on photo taken. Or if she did, we never saw it.
    She was on her back. Livor mortis PROVES that. She was turned on her side for the photograph. I am sure there are other photos taken where she is turned on her other side, as well as on her stomach, too. Remember, we see only 6-8 photos out of the dozens that were taken.
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  11. #23

    Default This is how I always imagined JonBenet was found, not the artist "rendition"

    I've taken the one photo we do have and rotated it so that JonBenet is lying on an imaginary floor. That way, we can see the position in which her arms would have been according to rigor mortis.

    JonBenet's arms were not drawn up so much into a boxer's position in front of her (as would have resulted from being exposed to extreme heat), but they were drawn up diagonally "above" her head in the vertical plane that extended from her body to the ceiling.

    It is possible JonBenet's arms were originally lying along either side of her head but they were pulled into the photographed position by the tightening of the muscles during the process of rigor mortis. This made the muscles draw up and her elbows consequently formed the top of a pyramid with the floor.
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  12. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    I've taken the one photo we do have and rotated it so that JonBenet is lying on an imaginary floor. That way, we can see the position in which her arms would have been according to rigor mortis.

    JonBenet's arms were not drawn up so much into a boxer's position in front of her (as would have resulted from being exposed to extreme heat), but they were drawn up diagonally "above" her head in the vertical plane that extended from her body to the ceiling.

    It is possible JonBenet's arms were originally lying along either side of her head but they were pulled into the photographed position by the tightening of the muscles during the process of rigor mortis. This made the muscles draw up and her elbows consequently formed the top of a pyramid with the floor.
    Okay, so livor mortis proves she was ON HER BACK when she lay in the basement for possibly 12+ hours. She wasn't moved...livor mortis sets in...well, Moab contributed this wikipedia info on this topic once for me:

    Livor mortis starts twenty minutes to three hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in four to five hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6–12 hours. The blood pools into the interstitial tissues of the body.
    That's what I'm thinking, Cherokee, as your rotation illustrates--good job.

    But I have to say...and I'm sorry to be such a pain in the rear about this...I'm not convinced her arms ended up in that position because of a "death process." I've never heard of that before, discounting the "boxing" position, which I'm also not convinced would happen to that extent if she were on her back.

    Then again, I'm not remotely familiar with the processes that take place during and after death, so what do I know?

    Now I'm back to wondering about what Mr. Walsh said about JR "cutting her down." Maybe he meant her arms? If they were suspended from the wrist binding post mortem, then that would explain the faint white line seen in one wrist photo, since that is what happens rather than bruising, post mortem?

    It could also explain the long wrist ligature.

    But JR said her arms were tied "behind her head"? Which brought me to the original question: did he mean the ligature was "behind" her head"?

    Or not.

    So...where could her arms/wrists have been suspended "from"...?

    This is too crazy, right? I'm completely thrown by this question of the position of the arms. I don't get it.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
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