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Thread: Arms in rigor 2

  1. #37

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    KK, as you, I'm questioning everything that sounds/looks strange to me....so, I can share your frustration in regards of JB's hand position....For years, I have the same frustration in regards of JB's gold chain. Yes! Gold chain on her neck, believe it or not. Sorry for using this thread (I'm too shy to open any new one yet....But here are few pictures I copied from your old posts.

    This is the first picture with the gold chain imbedded into JB's neck right in FRONT. As you can see, the rope is not much twisted and the gold chain lays BELLOW the rope in almost parallel.



    Here is the side picture in which the remaining gold chain is HANGING down (gravity!).



    Now, you was the one who used this picture for compare purpose (strangulation by scarf)...look at the gold chain. It's twisted INSIDE-OUT of the scarf, hanging out, on FRONT.



    Now, it's time for you to ask me: what's bothering you?...If strangulation happens while JB was laying on her stomach then how the gold chain was embedded into her neck from the FRONT?!!!!.

    Every time I was trying to do this experiment (laying down on the floor, on my stomach), my gold chain was HANGING down to the floor and remaining chain was laying flat on the BACK of my neck....hmmmm...do you see where I'm going? Why do I have a feeling that rope was placed on JB neck while she wasn't laying down on her stomach...opposite, while she was faced-up????

    Now, am I crazy??...which wouldn't surprised my husband for sure!...

    ...again, sorry for taking 'hostage' your thread....but your 'frustration' inspires me....

  2. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    It's an interesting thought. Wouldn't there be bruising from the ligature on the wrists?

    Also, the loops around them were so loose, they were slipped over her hands, so I think the general thought is the wrist ligatures were strictly for staging, I'm remembering, now that you've brought this up.

    The only reason I ventured a question about the arms being "tied and suspended" is because if she were lying on her back while livor mortis was setting and rigor was
    setting" her muscles in the position of her arms/hands raised in FRONT of her face and "over" her head in that way, I can't account for how that was possible. Gravity is a force in this question for me.

    But then, I'm not that smart, so maybe I'm just asking dumb questions.
    Yes, it does seems like there should be some type of ligature mark(s) on the wrist. Good point.

    I'd agree that the ligature was for staging but there are those who believe the ligature was used to purposely kill JonBenet. Others seem to think it was coincidental to the staging. I think there's a third theory that it could be the work of a child's game that went wrong.

    The only thing I truly believe about this case is that Patsy wrote the note (quit laughing KK) and that Patsy and John knew/know exactly what happened.

  3. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    It's an interesting thought. Wouldn't there be bruising from the ligature on the wrists? ....respectfully skipped....
    If AR doesn't have references to it, does it mean AR wrong or picture lies? I see the bruising around/bellow the wrist, do you?



    ...this is the only picture we have with sleeves up, exposing the right wrist....

  4. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    If AR doesn't have references to it, does it mean AR wrong or picture lies? I see the bruising around/bellow the wrist, do you?



    ...this is the only picture we have with sleeves up, exposing the right wrist....
    I do not see bruising. I so see a faint reddish mark, but I see the identical reddish marks on her fingertips.
    As for how the chain got embedded in the front of her throat- I picture it like this: she is lying on her stomach and the cord catches the chain up as it is wound around her. There is also the possibility that she was on her back first, and then put on her stomach. She died on her stomach. The urine stains are anterior (the front of her body). The knot was tied at the back of her neck. She may have been turned on her stomach to tie the knot, then flipped over. We just don't know. So we have to try to piece it all together from what we do know.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  5. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    If AR doesn't have references to it, does it mean AR wrong or picture lies? I see the bruising around/bellow the wrist, do you?



    ...this is the only picture we have with sleeves up, exposing the right wrist....
    Great find! Thanks for posting. I'd forgotten what made me think about her maybe being bound to control her hands!

  6. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    I do not see bruising. I so see a faint reddish mark, but I see the identical reddish marks on her fingertips.
    As for how the chain got embedded in the front of her throat- I picture it like this: she is lying on her stomach and the cord catches the chain up as it is wound around her. There is also the possibility that she was on her back first, and then put on her stomach. She died on her stomach. The urine stains are anterior (the front of her body). The knot was tied at the back of her neck. She may have been turned on her stomach to tie the knot, then flipped over. We just don't know. So we have to try to piece it all together from what we do know.
    Agree, JB has died while laying on her stomach. However, IMO, whoever placed this rope around her neck, did it from the front while JB was laying down, face-up. By the way, AR was wrong, the rope's knot wasn't on the back of her neck....according to an autopsy photo, the knot was on the right side of her neck (on the same line as round abrasion - see pic in post #42). Strange, but this 'right' side plays some kind of role: the ugly round ambrasion is on her right side, the head has been turned to the right side; the head injury is on the right side; the free hanging gold chain is on the right side as well......

  7. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    Agree, JB has died while laying on her stomach. However, IMO, whoever placed this rope around her neck, did it from the front while JB was laying down, face-up. By the way, AR was wrong, the rope's knot wasn't on the back of her neck....according to an autopsy photo, the knot was on the right side of her neck (on the same line as round abrasion - see pic in post #42). Strange, but this 'right' side plays some kind of role: the ugly round ambrasion is on her right side, the head has been turned to the right side; the head injury is on the right side; the free hanging gold chain is on the right side as well......
    Interesting. There will NEVER be an easy way to investigate this crime.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  8. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    Yes, it does seems like there should be some type of ligature mark(s) on the wrist. Good point.

    I'd agree that the ligature was for staging but there are those who believe the ligature was used to purposely kill JonBenet. Others seem to think it was coincidental to the staging. I think there's a third theory that it could be the work of a child's game that went wrong.

    The only thing I truly believe about this case is that Patsy wrote the note (quit laughing KK) and that Patsy and John knew/know exactly what happened.
    Just to clarify: notice I said the "wrist ligatures" were staging. I accidentally put an "s" on that, as there was only one cord tied to both wrist--as you know.

    I believe the ligature around the child's neck in fact strangled her. I don't believe the "sex game" theory is supported by the evidence, even though I have great respect for Dr. Wecht.

    In fact, related to openmind4u's post about the necklace rolled into the ligature, I think that necklace proves the ligature in fact did roll up her neck, tightening as it went, causing the abrasions and bruising on the left lower neck in front.

    Just my opinion.

    I don't laugh at serious thought in this case. I believe you're right about Patsy writing the note and both parents knowing what happened.

    The rest gets a lot of examination and discussion, but without a jury as decider of fact, it's all theory anyway.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  9. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    Agree, JB has died while laying on her stomach. However, IMO, whoever placed this rope around her neck, did it from the front while JB was laying down, face-up. By the way, AR was wrong, the rope's knot wasn't on the back of her neck....according to an autopsy photo, the knot was on the right side of her neck (on the same line as round abrasion - see pic in post #42). Strange, but this 'right' side plays some kind of role: the ugly round ambrasion is on her right side, the head has been turned to the right side; the head injury is on the right side; the free hanging gold chain is on the right side as well......
    I applaud your questions and experiment, OM4U. That's one I haven't heard of anyone doing.

    I will say that I did an experiment myself once, to prove the knot on the wrist ligature was in fact a slip knot. Relevant to your post here: the knot works it way to the side when you start pulling on it, which explains why the knot was on the "side" as you noted. I think it's more to the back myself, but it does appear to have worked to the side, just as the ligature I constructed around my thigh and pulled did.

    The knot also "locks" into place, which surprised me, as well. The pressure of the flesh pushing against the ligature and knot causes it to grab and stay in place. That was another question I had which my experiment answered for me: why didn't the knot loosen once it wasn't being pulled anymore? I'm not that familiar with knots in ligatures, so I had no idea. I believe some accepted the "double-granny knot" because that wouldn't come loose, which makes sense. But in fact, neither does an actual slip knot. You can see the slip knot clearly in the autopsy photo of the wrist ligature, which I used to construct my experiment, so I thought it was logical the person who tied the knots used the same one for both the wrists and the neck--it was a noose, after all.

    One reason I did my experiment is because there was lots of debate about the ligature on the neck having a slipknot vs a double-granny knot, as the med. examiner stated in his report.

    There has been confirmation since that the ligature knot was a slipknot--I think Kolar was the latest confirmation, if memory serves.

    Anyway, that could explain why the necklace is hanging to the side rather than another way. It was a longish necklace on the child, as the Christmas morning photo illustrates, I think?

    Hope this helps.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  10. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    If AR doesn't have references to it, does it mean AR wrong or picture lies? I see the bruising around/bellow the wrist, do you?



    ...this is the only picture we have with sleeves up, exposing the right wrist....
    This picture has been brought up with the same question before.

    I see the "mark" you see. But we don't see that in any other photo or defined in the medical examiner's autopsy report.

    The photo you are using in fact is a scan of a page from a tabloid, I'm thinking I remember.

    So some argue what we're seeing is in fact "ink bleed" from the other side of the paper.

    I think that's very possible because, if you look closer, you can see the "mark" extends above the hand into the "measurement" comparison ruler? Also, the cord was found tied over the sleeve of the top the child was wearing, so thinking it through: how did it get there if it were tight enough on her wrist below the sleeve to leave a bruise? Someone would have to have slipped it back over the sleeve later. If it slipped back up the arm by itself through some other inadvertent physical action, I don't think it would be on top of the sleeve, but under it?

    I've also never seen any case insider source claim there were bruises on the wrists or hands, so there's that, too.

    Of course, like the "raised" position of the arms/hands, it's an open argument I have no definitive answer for.

    I don't personally think she fought anyone that night, as there are no "defensive" bruises anywhere on her body. Since the ligature on the wrists was very loosely tied with more than a foot of length in between, I don't see how it could have served any purpose for restriction of movement on a living child, especially one fighting for her life. Had she pulled fairly hard, the wrist loops would have come off without much effort, I think.

    I believe the evidence supports the theory that she was already unconscious or dead when the wrist ligature was tied. JMO, of course.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    There are no dumb questions- and no dumb posters here either. Try to imagine it this way....JB lying on her back in the wine cellar with her arms the way I described- flat on the floor, bent at the elbows, palms up, forearms parallel to her head. Livor mortis begins to form with 10-20 minutes, and as the body remains still, the blood pools in the areas of the body closest to the ground- her back, buttocks, back of legs, and head, which was cocked to the right. The extremities (like ARMS) are not as heavy and there is less pressure against the floor so livor is not always noticeable as much there. (except in the case of a sitting or upright (as in hanging) body in which case the blood will pool in the legs and hands and lower arms).
    As livor is becoming fixed, rigor mortis has already begun. Remember that once livor is fixed (which means the blood is no longer liquid, but has begun to gel) there will be no further movement of the blood and no further livor pattern forming. Rigor mortis will cause the muscles to contract ONLY, and not relax because the calcium ions are starved of glucose and no longer able to move in and out of the cell walls. The muscles ratchet tighter and tighter, pulling her FOREARMS closer to her face and up from the floor, into the position we see as she lies on the rug in that photo.
    As for the legs- we have NO photo of JB's legs as they actually appeared, and it is unlikely that they would have been pulled up into a flexed-knee position that would be very obvious, but the muscles have contracted there, too, so I doubt her legs were perfectly straight, however to the untrained observer they may have appeared that way. The legs are the last muscle group to reach full rigor, with the thigh muscles being the largest muscle group.
    I feel it is very possible, and likely, that JB's arms were pulled into that position by rigor. And yes, rigor can pull bodies (especially arms and legs) into positions that seem to defy gravity- in fact the first thing Det. Arndt mentioned was her arms being "held up with no support". This does defy gravity.
    BUT- There are other position they could have been in and ended up that way- that is if they were folded on her chest, or even covering her face.
    If JR went to the basement early that morning (or even during his 10 AM "disappearance" that day) her arms may NOT have been in full rigor at that point and may have still been next to her. But by the time she was brought up a few hours later, they would have been. This is especially true if he based his description on seeing her MUCH earlier- before or around the time of the 911 call, when it would have only been 5-6 hours since she died.
    Thanks, Deedee.

    Do you know of any resource for this I could look up? I'll have time later to do some research on my own, but thought I'd ask in case you do, off the top of your head?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
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  12. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    KK, as you, I'm questioning everything that sounds/looks strange to me....so, I can share your frustration in regards of JB's hand position....For years, I have the same frustration in regards of JB's gold chain. Yes! Gold chain on her neck, believe it or not. Sorry for using this thread (I'm too shy to open any new one yet....But here are few pictures I copied from your old posts.

    This is the first picture with the gold chain imbedded into JB's neck right in FRONT. As you can see, the rope is not much twisted and the gold chain lays BELLOW the rope in almost parallel.

    [snip]

    Here is the side picture in which the remaining gold chain is HANGING down (gravity!).

    [snip]

    Now, you was the one who used this picture for compare purpose (strangulation by scarf)...look at the gold chain. It's twisted INSIDE-OUT of the scarf, hanging out, on FRONT.

    [snip]

    Now, it's time for you to ask me: what's bothering you?...If strangulation happens while JB was laying on her stomach then how the gold chain was embedded into her neck from the FRONT?!!!!.

    Every time I was trying to do this experiment (laying down on the floor, on my stomach), my gold chain was HANGING down to the floor and remaining chain was laying flat on the BACK of my neck....hmmmm...do you see where I'm going? Why do I have a feeling that rope was placed on JB neck while she wasn't laying down on her stomach...opposite, while she was faced-up????

    Now, am I crazy??...which wouldn't surprised my husband for sure!...

    ...again, sorry for taking 'hostage' your thread....but your 'frustration' inspires me....
    Do not ever be shy about starting a thread here, OM4U. I love it when others start threads. We're a small forum, so we all appreciate anyone's efforts in the ongoing forum debates that are all this case has anymore.

    But there is no problem with adding your questions and topics to this thread. Again, as a small forum, we're fairly loose about this. Mostly having a different topic thread makes it easier to locate later, if anyone needs to find it.

    As to the necklace winding into the ligature, it's a tricky thing to imagine what actually happened versus what we can reconstruct.

    When you "lay down" and try to reconstruct the position of the necklace--I have to ask, since the child didn't tie the ligature on herself and pull it--did you have someone (no doubt horrified ) doing that for you?

    I ask because it might make enough of a difference to explain the issues you have raised? Just a thought, of course.

    Let me say that personally, I don't suggest ANYONE try this on his/her own neck. As I mentioned in the post about the ligature I tied onto my thigh, the knot caught and held tightly. I can't remember how I got it off, but maybe I cut it off, as did Dr. Meyer at autopsy. The potential to really get hurt is too great for anyone to try this at home.

    PS I took out the photos in the quote so Moab won't walk me off the plank over eating up so much bandwidth.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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