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  1. #1

    Default About that red heart on JonBenet's hand

    I may have gotten an insight into the mystery of the heart or whatever you perceive it to be drawn with marker on JonBenet's hand.

    This may not even be a mystery to others, but I pondered it for a long time and yesterday researching the transcript of Patsy's interviews in 1998 with Haney for the DA's Office, was reminded about it. I want to know if forensic work was done on these bumps.

    My experience is that just when you think you have grasped something in this case, it slips right through your fingers, so maybe it's another red herring.

    But to the point:

    Patsy said she had no idea who drew the "heart" or when it was drawn on JB's hand. She confessed in this series of interviews at the end of one long day that she had seen the "well drawn heart" the morning JB was found. Oops. By the next morning of the interviews she backpedaled quickly. (No doubt her legal rep sitting in on the interviews had caught it at the time since Haney and Demuth asked her many questions about her statement before she left.)

    John also said he had no idea when or how it got there, which would be important as far as timing the marker image, but when people lie a lot, you can't really take their word for it, can you? Fleet White or his family or guests at his party that Christmas night may have offered LE info on it, but we don't know about it...or I don't.

    Then I noticed something about the marking on her hand when working with images one day on my computer's photo enhancement programs: there were little white, rash-like bumps on her palm near the marks.

    Bumps on a palm are uncommon. Suffice it to say I have wondered for some time how those originated.

    You can see an autopsy photo of the marked hand here: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...6&postcount=31

    Here is an enlargement and color-adjustment to highlight the bumps:



    Here's the passage where Patsy slips up, in more ways than one, perhaps. It's rather long, so I'll highlight the "clue" about those bumps on the palm in red for you if you don't want to work through the whole thing.

    11 THOMAS HANEY: On the 25th,
    12 Christmas, when you put JonBenet to bed, did she
    13 have any marks on her?
    14 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I noticed.
    15 THOMAS HANEY: Any scratches, cuts,
    16 bruises?
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I noticed.
    18 THOMAS HANEY: How about, did she
    19 have any marks from markers or anything like
    20 that?
    21 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't notice
    22 anything that night when she went to bed. And,
    23 you know, I know there was a red heart on her
    24 hand or her forehead. I don't know when that --
    25 I mean, you know, I didn't -- I didn't inspect
    0195
    1 her when I put her to bed.
    2 THOMAS HANEY: But when you put her
    3 to bed, let's talk about that. We will go into
    4 a little more detail later, because we have some
    5 photographs and we want to talk about that. You
    6 were -- at least changed part of her clothing
    7 when she is asleep?
    8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum, right.
    9 THOMAS HANEY: Doesn't --
    10 (INAUDIBLE). Did you notice anything?
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response.)
    12 THOMAS HANEY: Would she have
    13 washed her hands at a particular time?
    14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, at dinner, she
    15 rarely washed her hands.
    16 THOMAS HANEY: Would she, or
    17 perhaps she had been eating crab and you have
    18 that slimy stuff all over?
    19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I think she is
    20 going to wash her hands. But I didn't see her.
    21 I don't know.
    22 THOMAS HANEY: Getting her ready
    23 that early afternoon, four or five o'clock, did
    24 you give her a bath, did she take a bath?
    25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so.
    0196
    1 THOMAS HANEY: You don't think you
    2 gave her one?
    3 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
    4 THOMAS HANEY: Do you think she
    5 took one?
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, she didn't take
    7 one (INAUDIBLE).
    8 THOMAS HANEY: Showers?
    9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
    10 THOMAS HANEY: Would she have
    11 washed her hands before getting ready to go?
    12 PATSY RAMSEY: I'd like to think
    13 so, but I just don't know for sure.
    14 TRIP DeMUTH: At the Whites, did
    15 somebody say, oh, here, get ready for dinner?
    16 Did somebody tell her to go wash her hands at
    17 the Whites, do you remember anything about that?
    18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
    19 TRIP DeMUTH: How was she about
    20 washing her hands?
    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Just typical kid,
    22 you know, if she can get by with it, she
    23 wouldn't do it. You know, but I was pretty much
    24 always (INAUDIBLE). (Gesturing.)
    25 TRIP DeMUTH: Had you referred to
    0197
    1 that at all Christmas Day?
    2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
    3 don't remember exactly, but I may have.
    4 TRIP DeMUTH: How do you know there
    5 was a heart on her hand?
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: Because it was on
    7 there in the morning, that's why.
    8 TRIP DeMUTH: And you remember it
    9 from the next morning?
    10 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    11 TRIP DeMUTH: You saw it the next
    12 morning?
    13 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    14 TRIP DeMUTH: When you say the next
    15 morning, did you remember it from the previous
    16 evening?
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.) (No
    18 response.)
    19 TRIP DeMUTH: Did she -- I mean did
    20 it get there, was that something she would do
    21 or --
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she and
    23 Daphne, you know, a lot of times drew on
    24 themselves.
    25 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you ever see a
    0198
    1 heart on her hand before?
    2 PATSY RAMSEY: Not specifically a
    3 heart.
    4 TRIP DeMUTH: What might you have
    5 seen before?
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: Just markings, you
    7 know, just erratic marks maybe, she had been
    8 coloring, pen or ink marks, or like fingers from
    9 markers or something.
    10 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you ever draw
    11 anything on the palm of her hands?
    12 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
    13 TRIP DeMUTH: Was there ever an
    14 occasion when you would draw a smiley face on
    15 the palm of her hand or on her hand somewhere?
    16 PATSY RAMSEY: As a matter of fact,
    17 I discouraged her doing that because we always
    18 did what we called the pageant scrub the night
    19 before we have a pageant. We would wash her
    20 hair real good, and scrub her fingernails, and,
    21 you know, and oftentimes she would have, you
    22 know, marker all over herself or something, on
    23 her leg or something. Say, honey, now don't do
    24 that, wipe it off. We had to use nail polish
    25 remover,
    sort of try to dilute it and get it
    0199
    1 off. So I kind of discouraged that as much as
    2 possible.

    3 TRIP DeMUTH: There was something
    4 regarding that you would draw a smiley face when
    5 she was feeling down to perk her up. What would
    6 your reaction be to that?
    7 PATSY RAMSEY: That I would do it?
    8 TRIP DeMUTH: Yes.
    9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember
    10 doing that.
    11 TRIP DeMUTH: Did anybody have a
    12 particular liking or habit of drawing hearts?
    13 Did JonBenet draw hearts routinely?
    14 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
    15 Typically children do a lot of different things.
    16 TRIP DeMUTH: Some little kids have
    17 this --
    18 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    19 THOMAS HANEY: Line dine job --
    20 PATSY RAMSEY: She drew suns and
    21 things and birds and things like that.
    22 TRIP DeMUTH: What was your
    23 reaction when you saw that heart on her hand?
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I just thought
    25 Daphne must have done it or something, you know,
    0200
    1 they were playing the night before. You know --
    2 you know, my mind ran things out. But Santa
    3 Claus made a point the night that he was at our
    4 house at the party and was, you know, reading
    5 this dialogue that I had written up, and then he
    6 told this story about, you know, how Christmas
    7 should be Christmas all the time, all year long,
    8 and he said, "and where is Christmas when it's
    9 not really Christmas," something like that. He
    10 said particularly JonBenet, and he pointed to
    11 JonBenet. And she said in her heart. Pointing.
    12 So I mean, you know, I just turned
    13 around. I am trying to figure and figure and
    14 put things together, but, you know, that -- I am
    15 sure you all have too, but --
    16 TRIP DeMUTH: You knew her best.
    17 That's why we need to ask about her habits.
    18 PATSY RAMSEY: That was a pretty
    19 good little heart, you know, I mean -- pretty
    20 well drawn.
    21 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
    22 THOMAS HANEY: I see we are at -- a
    23 little after 4.
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: Anything on the
    25 picture or something, you know.
    0201
    1 THOMAS HANEY: We will do that
    2 tomorrow, how's that.
    Did nail polish remover being rubbed hard into the palm cause those bumps on JB's hand?

    What I'd like to know is if the medical examiner noticed or did any forensic work on those bumps. They could put a timeline on those markings.

    If fingernail polish remover was used to get the marker off, who used it on the child? When?

    It could be important.

    Or it could have been at one time, anyway.

    Any ideas about this, anyone?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  2. #2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I may have gotten an insight into the mystery of the heart or whatever you perceive it to be drawn with marker on JonBenet's hand.

    This may not even be a mystery to others, but I pondered it for a long time and yesterday researching the transcript of Patsy's interviews in 1998 with Haney for the DA's Office, was reminded about it. I want to know if forensic work was done on these bumps.

    My experience is that just when you think you have grasped something in this case, it slips right through your fingers, so maybe it's another red herring.

    But to the point:

    Patsy said she had no idea who drew the "heart" or when it was drawn on JB's hand. She confessed in this series of interviews at the end of one long day that she had seen the "well drawn heart" the morning JB was found. Oops. By the next morning of the interviews she backpedaled quickly. (No doubt her legal rep sitting in on the interviews had caught it at the time since Haney and Demuth asked her many questions about her statement before she left.)

    John also said he had no idea when or how it got there, which would be important as far as timing the marker image, but when people lie a lot, you can't really take their word for it, can you? Fleet White or his family or guests at his party that Christmas night may have offered LE info on it, but we don't know about it...or I don't.

    Then I noticed something about the marking on her hand when working with images one day on my computer's photo enhancement programs: there were little white, rash-like bumps on her palm near the marks.

    Bumps on a palm are uncommon. Suffice it to say I have wondered for some time how those originated.

    You can see an autopsy photo of the marked hand here: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...6&postcount=31

    Here is an enlargement and color-adjustment to highlight the bumps:



    Here's the passage where Patsy slips up, in more ways than one, perhaps. It's rather long, so I'll highlight the "clue" about those bumps on the palm in red for you if you don't want to work through the whole thing.



    Did nail polish remover being rubbed hard into the palm cause those bumps on JB's hand?

    What I'd like to know is if the medical examiner noticed or did any forensic work on those bumps. They could put a timeline on those markings.

    If fingernail polish remover was used to get the marker off, who used it on the child? When?

    It could be important.

    Or it could have been at one time, anyway.

    Any ideas about this, anyone?
    If I had to guess, I would say it is contact dermatitis from contact with a chemical irritant, in this case the fingernail polish remover containing either acetone, or less likely, ethyl acetate.
    http://dermtexas.com/2012/09/13/cont...is-learn-more/


  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    If I had to guess, I would say it is contact dermatitis from contact with a chemical irritant, in this case the fingernail polish remover containing either acetone, or less likely, ethyl acetate.
    http://dermtexas.com/2012/09/13/cont...is-learn-more/

    Thank you, Cynic! From that link:

    Irritant contact dermatitis is the most common and occurs in response to a physical or chemical insult to the outer layer of the skin. In other words, it is a response to a direct toxic effect on the skin. Any person who would be exposed to such effect would develop a rash. The associated rash characteristically appears shortly after exposure. Strong irritants tend to cause evident skin damage within hours while weaker irritants may require multiple exposures to develop the dermatitis. Examples of irritants include acids, alkalis, solvents, adhesives and detergents.

    ...Presentation:
    The rash is often very itchy. The appearance of the rash depends on the stage. In the acute phase, one would expect to see red patches and fluid-filled bumps (vesicles) with oozing; swelling may also be present. In the chronic phase we would expect longer term changes such as crusting, thickening, and scaling.
    See, is there ANY WAY a medical examiner with many years experience wouldn't know this? Or notice it at the autopsy of a murdered child?

    How long does a rash like that last?

    If the size, shape, etc., of the rash bumps indicated the rash was, say, only hours old, as opposed to days old...that would be of interest, wouldn't it?

    If it was caused by nail polish remover, who used that on the child? Surely an adult? The marker on the hand appears to be smeared or faded to me.

    Notwithstanding her later retracted claim that she had seen the heart "that morning" when the child was already dead, Patsy said she previously had discouraged JonBenet from marking herself like that. To get it off when she did, Patsy said, "We had to use nail polish remover, sort of try to dilute it and get it off."

    So if polish remover caused the palm rash, who used that remover on the child and when? That person could provide a timeline for that.

    Why would LE not have found that out by June, 1998? How many people had access to JonBenet's hands who would bother?

    Didn't Team Ramsey want to know if the intruder marked her hand and then tried to remove it with fingernail polish remover?

    These are the questions I have. I don't understand how LE didn't already know these things by June 1998.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  4. #4
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    Thank you Koldkase, DeeDee and cynic for these very intriguing posts.

    I never noticed these bumps on JonBenét's hand before, KK. You could be right about Patsy using the nail remover on the palm of her hand and causing an allergic reaction here. You're very observant!

    Patsy Ramsey gives herself away about "lying" most of the time by not really knowing too much about whether JonBenét had marks on the palm of her hand. What mother wouldn't know this? Good grief, if your child is just six years old, a mother has to keep a child this age close at hand, especially when there wasn't a Nanny around at the holidays. Or, was this when Burke was trusted with her in the basement?

    Patsy knew every damn thing when it came to the pageant scrub, didn't she?
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  5. #5

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    We don't know what they know or didn't know or when they actually knew it. I still think a LOT of evidence in this case has not been made public. Meyer left way too many questions unanswered in the released autopsy report. But that still doesn't mean BPD didn't know about a skin rash on her palm. Meyer wasn't the only professional to look at the photos of her hand.
    I get those rashes on my hands. I am allergic to heavily scented soaps and lotions and harsh detergents like some dishsoaps and laundry soap. (That pink powder soap found in public restrooms is the worst.)I get red itchy bumps especially on my fingers. They don't look like Jonbenet though. Hers look like a cluster of bumps. Mine are more single bumps on my fingers and hands. It lasts maybe a day. Not a long time.
    (Hers looks almost like a herpes cluster.)

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    We don't know what they know or didn't know or when they actually knew it. I still think a LOT of evidence in this case has not been made public. Meyer left way too many questions unanswered in the released autopsy report. But that still doesn't mean BPD didn't know about a skin rash on her palm. Meyer wasn't the only professional to look at the photos of her hand.
    I get those rashes on my hands. I am allergic to heavily scented soaps and lotions and harsh detergents like some dishsoaps and laundry soap. (That pink powder soap found in public restrooms is the worst.)I get red itchy bumps especially on my fingers. They don't look like Jonbenet though. Hers look like a cluster of bumps. Mine are more single bumps on my fingers and hands. It lasts maybe a day. Not a long time.
    (Hers looks almost like a herpes cluster.)
    Gosh, I hope not.

    Of course, I was hypothesizing about the polish remover because Patsy mentioned it. If someone did try to remover the marker, obviously it didn't work well. So I was thinking the bumps could have been a result of over-scrubbing with the remover.

    I guess the bumps remind me of poison ivy/oak, which I am highly allergic to, but I never had it on my palms, even when I've had it just about everywhere else. It's listed under an "allergic" reaction on the page cynic found, as well, different from a "contact" reaction.

    I agree that there are things still secret in this case. I was thinking if LE already knew about the bumps, they might have asked Patsy about that.

    Maybe not. So long ago, and so many unasked and unanswered questions....

    Another question for Kolar to add to my long list.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Thank you Koldkase, DeeDee and cynic for these very intriguing posts.

    I never noticed these bumps on JonBenét's hand before, KK. You could be right about Patsy using the nail remover on the palm of her hand and causing an allergic reaction here. You're very observant!

    Patsy Ramsey gives herself away about "lying" most of the time by not really knowing too much about whether JonBenét had marks on the palm of her hand. What mother wouldn't know this? Good grief, if your child is just six years old, a mother has to keep a child this age close at hand, especially when there wasn't a Nanny around at the holidays. Or, was this when Burke was trusted with her in the basement?

    Patsy knew every damn thing when it came to the pageant scrub, didn't she?
    Yes, Elle, Patsy seems to have forgotten what was convenient and remembered not much of anything useful.

    JB's next pageant was not until after the Charlevoix Christmas and the Big Red Boat trip, I'm thinking. That was a week or more away...? I have to wonder why getting that off her hand would have been that important that day, if polish remover is what caused the bumps.

    Unless Patsy tried to remove it on Dec. 23rd, for the Christmas Party, or the 24th, when they went to church and to eat dinner all dressed up?

    Honestly, someone HAS to know about this marker. It's been an often discussed part of the investigation from the beginning.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Gosh, I hope not.

    Of course, I was hypothesizing about the polish remover because Patsy mentioned it. If someone did try to remover the marker, obviously it didn't work well. So I was thinking the bumps could have been a result of over-scrubbing with the remover.

    I guess the bumps remind me of poison ivy/oak, which I am highly allergic to, but I never had it on my palms, even when I've had it just about everywhere else. It's listed under an "allergic" reaction on the page cynic found, as well, different from a "contact" reaction.

    I agree that there are things still secret in this case. I was thinking if LE already knew about the bumps, they might have asked Patsy about that.

    Maybe not. So long ago, and so many unasked and unanswered questions....

    Another question for Kolar to add to my long list.
    The heart in her hand does look to me to be a little lighter as if it was washed or attempted to remove it.. It doesn't look deep red or bright red to me as it would if it were fresh. Although it may look that way because it is a photo and sometimes they don't come out real true to color.

  9. #9
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    Default

    I wouldn't attribute those little bumps to contact with acetone. If her hand had been scrubbed, that mark would not be there, and I have never seen that kind of rash from nail polish remover. What it might do, is cause a peeling of the skin, because it is almost like a stripping chemical, if it were used often and not washed off. But I would think even Patsy would use it sparingly and then give JonBenet a bath directly afterward.

    It does sound as if JonBenet did this often enough that it was at least a bit of a problem, the way Patsy words her response.

    and oftentimes she would have, you
    22 know, marker all over herself or something, on
    23 her leg or something
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    I wouldn't attribute those little bumps to contact with acetone. If her hand had been scrubbed, that mark would not be there, and I have never seen that kind of rash from nail polish remover. What it might do, is cause a peeling of the skin, because it is almost like a stripping chemical, if it were used often and not washed off. But I would think even Patsy would use it sparingly and then give JonBenet a bath directly afterward.

    It does sound as if JonBenet did this often enough that it was at least a bit of a problem, the way Patsy words her response.

    and oftentimes she would have, you
    22 know, marker all over herself or something, on
    23 her leg or something
    Good point about "oftentimes" being used by Patsy.

    So what do you think caused the bumps on the palm? I was looking at the photo again and it even appears there are some lesser bumps in other places on the palm.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Good point about "oftentimes" being used by Patsy.

    So what do you think caused the bumps on the palm? I was looking at the photo again and it even appears there are some lesser bumps in other places on the palm.
    I am not sure. Those little bumps may be an allergic reaction of some kind although to what, I would not know. It's an odd place to have that kind of little pustule. God only knows what JonBenet got into without Patsy even paying attention to, though.

    Karen said it looks rather like a herpes cluster and I would agree. We need to find some other photographs of that type of outbreak.

    Is there a dermatologist in the house?

    Here's one I just found: Herpes Zoster shingles on the hand
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    I am not sure. Those little bumps may be an allergic reaction of some kind although to what, I would not know. It's an odd place to have that kind of little pustule. God only knows what JonBenet got into without Patsy even paying attention to, though.

    Karen said it looks rather like a herpes cluster and I would agree. We need to find some other photographs of that type of outbreak.

    Is there a dermatologist in the house?

    Here's one I just found: Herpes Zoster shingles on the hand
    I can't seem to find any reference to these bumps on the hand in the autopsy. Am I just missing this?

    Because it's hard to imagine a medical examiner would have missed this on a MOLESTED AND MURDERED child.

    If JB had herpes, that would change EVERYTHING.

    E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
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