About that red heart on JonBenet's hand

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Dec 31, 2012.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I may have gotten an insight into the mystery of the heart or whatever you perceive it to be drawn with marker on JonBenet's hand.

    This may not even be a mystery to others, but I pondered it for a long time and yesterday researching the transcript of Patsy's interviews in 1998 with Haney for the DA's Office, was reminded about it. I want to know if forensic work was done on these bumps.

    My experience is that just when you think you have grasped something in this case, it slips right through your fingers, so maybe it's another red herring.

    But to the point:

    Patsy said she had no idea who drew the "heart" or when it was drawn on JB's hand. She confessed in this series of interviews at the end of one long day that she had seen the "well drawn heart" the morning JB was found. Oops. By the next morning of the interviews she backpedaled quickly. (No doubt her legal rep sitting in on the interviews had caught it at the time since Haney and Demuth asked her many questions about her statement before she left.)

    John also said he had no idea when or how it got there, which would be important as far as timing the marker image, but when people lie a lot, you can't really take their word for it, can you? Fleet White or his family or guests at his party that Christmas night may have offered LE info on it, but we don't know about it...or I don't.

    Then I noticed something about the marking on her hand when working with images one day on my computer's photo enhancement programs: there were little white, rash-like bumps on her palm near the marks.

    Bumps on a palm are uncommon. Suffice it to say I have wondered for some time how those originated.

    You can see an autopsy photo of the marked hand here: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=189486&postcount=31

    Here is an enlargement and color-adjustment to highlight the bumps:

    [​IMG]

    Here's the passage where Patsy slips up, in more ways than one, perhaps. It's rather long, so I'll highlight the "clue" about those bumps on the palm in red for you if you don't want to work through the whole thing.

    Did nail polish remover being rubbed hard into the palm cause those bumps on JB's hand?

    What I'd like to know is if the medical examiner noticed or did any forensic work on those bumps. They could put a timeline on those markings.

    If fingernail polish remover was used to get the marker off, who used it on the child? When?

    It could be important.

    Or it could have been at one time, anyway.

    Any ideas about this, anyone?
     
  2. cynic

    cynic Member

    If I had to guess, I would say it is contact dermatitis from contact with a chemical irritant, in this case the fingernail polish remover containing either acetone, or less likely, ethyl acetate.
    http://dermtexas.com/2012/09/13/contact-dermatitis-learn-more/

    [​IMG]
     
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thank you, Cynic! From that link:

    See, is there ANY WAY a medical examiner with many years experience wouldn't know this? Or notice it at the autopsy of a murdered child?

    How long does a rash like that last?

    If the size, shape, etc., of the rash bumps indicated the rash was, say, only hours old, as opposed to days old...that would be of interest, wouldn't it?

    If it was caused by nail polish remover, who used that on the child? Surely an adult? The marker on the hand appears to be smeared or faded to me.

    Notwithstanding her later retracted claim that she had seen the heart "that morning" when the child was already dead, Patsy said she previously had discouraged JonBenet from marking herself like that. To get it off when she did, Patsy said, "We had to use nail polish remover, sort of try to dilute it and get it off."

    So if polish remover caused the palm rash, who used that remover on the child and when? That person could provide a timeline for that.

    Why would LE not have found that out by June, 1998? How many people had access to JonBenet's hands who would bother?

    Didn't Team Ramsey want to know if the intruder marked her hand and then tried to remove it with fingernail polish remover?

    These are the questions I have. I don't understand how LE didn't already know these things by June 1998.
     
  4. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thank you Koldkase, DeeDee and cynic for these very intriguing posts.

    I never noticed these bumps on JonBenét's hand before, KK. You could be right about Patsy using the nail remover on the palm of her hand and causing an allergic reaction here. You're very observant!

    Patsy Ramsey gives herself away about "lying" most of the time by not really knowing too much about whether JonBenét had marks on the palm of her hand. What mother wouldn't know this? Good grief, if your child is just six years old, a mother has to keep a child this age close at hand, especially when there wasn't a Nanny around at the holidays. Or, was this when Burke was trusted with her in the basement?

    Patsy knew every damn thing when it came to the pageant scrub, didn't she?
     
  5. Karen

    Karen Member

    We don't know what they know or didn't know or when they actually knew it. I still think a LOT of evidence in this case has not been made public. Meyer left way too many questions unanswered in the released autopsy report. But that still doesn't mean BPD didn't know about a skin rash on her palm. Meyer wasn't the only professional to look at the photos of her hand.
    I get those rashes on my hands. I am allergic to heavily scented soaps and lotions and harsh detergents like some dishsoaps and laundry soap. (That pink powder soap found in public restrooms is the worst.)I get red itchy bumps especially on my fingers. They don't look like Jonbenet though. Hers look like a cluster of bumps. Mine are more single bumps on my fingers and hands. It lasts maybe a day. Not a long time.
    (Hers looks almost like a herpes cluster.)
     
  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Gosh, I hope not.

    Of course, I was hypothesizing about the polish remover because Patsy mentioned it. If someone did try to remover the marker, obviously it didn't work well. So I was thinking the bumps could have been a result of over-scrubbing with the remover.

    I guess the bumps remind me of poison ivy/oak, which I am highly allergic to, but I never had it on my palms, even when I've had it just about everywhere else. It's listed under an "allergic" reaction on the page cynic found, as well, different from a "contact" reaction.

    I agree that there are things still secret in this case. I was thinking if LE already knew about the bumps, they might have asked Patsy about that.

    Maybe not. So long ago, and so many unasked and unanswered questions....

    Another question for Kolar to add to my long list.
     
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, Elle, Patsy seems to have forgotten what was convenient and remembered not much of anything useful.

    JB's next pageant was not until after the Charlevoix Christmas and the Big Red Boat trip, I'm thinking. That was a week or more away...? I have to wonder why getting that off her hand would have been that important that day, if polish remover is what caused the bumps.

    Unless Patsy tried to remove it on Dec. 23rd, for the Christmas Party, or the 24th, when they went to church and to eat dinner all dressed up?

    Honestly, someone HAS to know about this marker. It's been an often discussed part of the investigation from the beginning.
     
  8. Karen

    Karen Member

    The heart in her hand does look to me to be a little lighter as if it was washed or attempted to remove it.. It doesn't look deep red or bright red to me as it would if it were fresh. Although it may look that way because it is a photo and sometimes they don't come out real true to color.
     
  9. heymom

    heymom Member

    I wouldn't attribute those little bumps to contact with acetone. If her hand had been scrubbed, that mark would not be there, and I have never seen that kind of rash from nail polish remover. What it might do, is cause a peeling of the skin, because it is almost like a stripping chemical, if it were used often and not washed off. But I would think even Patsy would use it sparingly and then give JonBenet a bath directly afterward.

    It does sound as if JonBenet did this often enough that it was at least a bit of a problem, the way Patsy words her response.

    and oftentimes she would have, you
    22 know, marker all over herself or something, on
    23 her leg or something
     
  10. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Good point about "oftentimes" being used by Patsy.

    So what do you think caused the bumps on the palm? I was looking at the photo again and it even appears there are some lesser bumps in other places on the palm.
     
  11. heymom

    heymom Member

    I am not sure. Those little bumps may be an allergic reaction of some kind although to what, I would not know. It's an odd place to have that kind of little pustule. God only knows what JonBenet got into without Patsy even paying attention to, though.

    Karen said it looks rather like a herpes cluster and I would agree. We need to find some other photographs of that type of outbreak.

    Is there a dermatologist in the house?

    Here's one I just found: Herpes Zoster shingles on the hand
     
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I can't seem to find any reference to these bumps on the hand in the autopsy. Am I just missing this?

    Because it's hard to imagine a medical examiner would have missed this on a MOLESTED AND MURDERED child.

    If JB had herpes, that would change EVERYTHING.

    E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G.
     
  13. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I don't see anything either. I know herpes lesions can form other places, but their presence on a hand doesn't necessarily mean an STD. These lesions don't appear in all photos, and without a clearer photo or coroner's descriptions I have to consider they are not what they may appear.
     
  14. heymom

    heymom Member

    Herpes simplex is the virus that causes cold sores (HSV1). HSV2 is the virus that causes genital herpes. If those were herpes blisters it does not necessarily mean that Jonbenet had genital herpes. Herpes zoster is the virus that causes chicken pox.

    If JonBenet had genital herpes, unless she was having a current outbreak, I don't think the doctor would have seen anything to put into the autopsy report. Correct me if I am wrong on this, please.
     
  15. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Unless active lesions/blisters are present, there would be nothing to see. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that although it is true that different strains of the Herpes virus cause genital herpes and cold sores, they CAN cause outbreaks in the other area. For example, someone with a cold sore can transfer the virus to the genital area of another person during oral sex. Same goes for the other strain.
     
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Ohhhhhhhh...my brain....:headache:

    Where's the brain bleach?! Quit hogging it!
     
  17. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    We need to pour Clorox in the gene pool.
     
  18. Karen

    Karen Member

    Jonbenet was never given a vaginal exam while alive. How the heck can anybody know what was going on down there with her? I know nothing about herpes, thank goodness, so I wonder, would something like that cause the same symptoms as a vaginal infection, or urinary tract infection, or could it be the same symptoms as a bubble bath irritation? Does it cause itching, burning? I wonder if those frantic phone calls Patsy made to Beufs office earlier in the month (wasn't it like 4 within a short period of time or something like that?) was because Jonbenet had a cold sore and was scheduled to attend a pageant? Or the Little Miss Christmas parade?

    Koldkase, those bumps in her hand are not mentioned in the autopsy report. You're not missing anything. I said years ago on a forum there was something not right about the autopsy report because it left out a lot and didn't seem genuine to me. It just didn't seem complete to me then nor does it now. I was resoundingly thumped on the head and told I was wrong by the masses.
    I suppose it could simply be that Dr. Meyer was incompetent and less than thorough. I am not impressed with his work at all.
     
  19. BOESP

    BOESP Member

  20. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    That smear on her cheek was described as dried vomit/mucus. I think it is also on her sleeve. It is possible that dried droplets of that are what appears on her hands.
     
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