Page 2 of 33 FirstFirst 12345612 ... LastLast
Results 13 to 24 of 395
  1. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    1,000 miles from nowhere
    Posts
    165

    Default

    I still think the damage compares favorably to a low velocity-high pressure type trauma.

    Steve Thomas, according to his book, described his theory in a way that also fits with low velocity-high pressure (as opposed to high velocity-low pressure, which would likely be consistent with a swung object coming into contact with JonBenet's skull).

    I know everyone is tired of hearing me say this but low velocity-high pressure fits the dynamics of the wound. If that split in the skull was not 8" long and spanning the area from front to back I'd be more amendable to other considerations.

  2. #14

    Default

    Welcome to FFJ, BOESP.

    I remember your mentioning this several times before when I had only enough time to read and didn’t post very much. I don’t know if you have a particular object in mind, or if you think that this would have to be the case because of the linear fracture. If I understand the dynamics and the physics (and all that other stuff I paid no attention to in school), I believe the pressure required to cause a certain amount of damage would be the same regardless of the velocity of the object. The difference in velocity would be made up in the amount of weight being swung because of inertia (I think).

    Taken to the extreme low end of velocity, zero velocity would be if an object were placed on top of her head that had enough weight that it could cause the fracture. On the opposite end extreme, an object swung with extremely high velocity would have to have a very minimal amount of weight in order to cause that same amount of damage without continuing (because of its inertia) to completely crush the entire skull.

    So if I understand what you are saying (correct me if I am wrong), the difference would actually be not in the amount of pressure at the point of impact, but would be in the amount velocity versus weight of the object. Like a balancing scale, when one goes up (velocity or weight), the other would have to come down.

    But we have people here with a lot more knowledge than I have. Maybe one of them will weigh in and enlighten us both.

    I don’t think that the object used was actually swung with very much force. I think, and I hope to demonstrate when I get everything wrapped up, that it was the shape of the weapon which caused the exact shape of the depressed fracture, and caused the linear fracture to form.
    .
    All views expressed in my posts are my opinion and are protected under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as “freedom of speech”.

  3. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    1,000 miles from nowhere
    Posts
    165

    Default

    Thanks for the thoughtful response otg.

    A heavier weight applied to the head would definitely increase pressure. Keep in mind that the terms "low" and "high" are relative.

    In my opinion, the point of impact (oval shape as illustrated in your post) is not likely high velocity (such as a bullet or other high velocity element) because of the lack of deep penetration and size/shape of the piece of displaced skull.

    I can only speculate what type contact was made (I have no access to original records or evidence), however, Steve Thomas did have access and his opinion matches what I've seen in the autopsy report and photos that are available to the public.

    JonBenet could have been shoved into a door knob (height and placement of the injury are consistent with that possibility); she could have been shoved down on to something; Patsy could have slung her around when cleaning her after a soiling incident and pushed her against something or even fallen on her (thus creating a low velocity wound with high pressure applied). This is my speculation in trying to make an effort to explain possibilities for a low velocity-high pressure wound.

    I could be all wet but hitting her with a golf club didn't, in my opinion, create an 8" lineal fracture front-to-back. It is hard to tell exactly what happened just looking at photos on a computer screen.

  4. #16

    Default

    Over on the Kolar Book thread, I posted the following (Post No. 222):

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    JonBenet had to be hit with a force large enough to cause failure of the bone structure due to punching shear. Force equal mass times acceleration (thank you, Isaac Newton), so the object delivering the force had to either be travelling fast enough, or be heavy enough, to cause this failure. Bumping into a counter or falling on the floor wouldn't have done it - those actions could have caused a concussion, but not that depressed skull fracture with the long crack emanating from it.

    I don't think there were heavy weights around the house; so it's more likely that something travelling fast did the deed, something that could be raised high enough and swung fast enough to cause the speed required to create the failure of the skull bone. Golf club, flashlight, possibly but less likely a shower head.

    Since 1996 the biomedical engineering field has greatly expanded. Someone could analyze the failure pattern on her skull and figure out how it failed, and figure out the ranges of object weight and object speed could have caused the failure. If the skull is available (is it available?) it could be but under a scanning electron microscope to see microfractures, and estimate the direction of the applied force as well.

    Way out of scope for this case, however. All this goes in the dish holding Dr. Henry Lee's "rice already cooked."
    I have chatted with a few people and gotten a number for the shear strength of bone of about 9000 psi, although it could vary a bit, and actually be much higher. The failure of JonBenet's skull at the depressed fracture is a shear failure. Whatever hit her had to develop a pressure at impact greater than about 9000 psi. That's not that hard to do - a whipped golf club could easily create a pressure that high over a small area, initiating the fracture.

    I have never wanted to do this math because it's not my area of expertise ( I analyze structural failures) and we simply don't have enough information on the fracture, just that autopsy photo.

    Looking forward to listening to the fabulous Tricia's fabulous show in a little while with you all.

  5. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    I am absolutely aware of the two types of fractures present on JonBenet’s skull. That is why I always refer to them as what they are, and I’m careful to differentiate between the two. If you recall, I had posted definitions of the four types of fractures that can occur to a skull at the bottom of this post back in August. Of course, JonBenet only had two those, but I felt it important to define our terms for future reference.



    It certainly was not my intent to mislead anyone with that one photo. Obviously it is not JonBenet’s skull, nor is it even the same type of tissue/membrane because it is a subdural hematoma (on the inside of the skull). It came from this site, and its only purpose was to show just how dark a hemorrhage appears next to uninjured tissue.

    DeeDee, I hope you know how much I value your opinion. It seems that the only disagreement you have with what I have written so far is whether or not the two darkened areas are part of the displaced skull, or are part of the pericranium as I believe. I think the lighting reflections that I circled at least indicate that there is something there other than simply an open “hole”. And the fact that the upper three circled reflections are in line with where we can see the edge of the cut pericranial membrane on either side of the skull makes me believe that it is this thin membrane stretched across the open space left by the missing fragments of skull.

    But that alone does not account for the two darkened areas on either side. Granted, I don’t have any definitive proof that those two areas are indeed contused flesh instead of missing bone. But that is my opinion based on the lighting, the appearance of the other darkened areas below that, and the exact color of those two areas compared with the color of the area that we know is open space.

    But it doesn’t matter if you don’t agree with me on that one point. My entire theory on what caused the fractures doesn’t hinge on this. Please just hang with me for a while, DeeDee, and see if the rest of what I post will make sense to you.
    I'm with you up to this point and just want to mention that I do remember the other thread where these technical issues were debated at length, in relation to the weapon being a golf club or not.

    I will stay that I appreciate the length to which you have gone to describe the gelatinous-looking, glistening tissue bridging the comminuted fracture of the skull. I personally have always considered it to be a tissue or membrane of some sort, though I've never known what it was called and thanks so much for detailing all this for us.

    I guess one reason I never thought of this "displaced" part of the skull fracture as two different, separate comminuted fractures is because it wasn't described as such in the autopsy...at least, not as I remember it.

    Anyway, just to say I'm with you so far and moving on. Fascinating stuff, Otg. You might have felt unsuccessful in college in these subjects, but you certainly learned a lot as you are quite creatively applying what you absorbed. I'd never have thought of it, myself. Well done.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  6. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    Over on the Kolar Book thread, I posted the following (Post No. 222):

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    JonBenet had to be hit with a force large enough to cause failure of the bone structure due to punching shear. Force equal mass times acceleration (thank you, Isaac Newton), so the object delivering the force had to either be travelling fast enough, or be heavy enough, to cause this failure. Bumping into a counter or falling on the floor wouldn't have done it - those actions could have caused a concussion, but not that depressed skull fracture with the long crack emanating from it.

    I don't think there were heavy weights around the house; so it's more likely that something travelling fast did the deed, something that could be raised high enough and swung fast enough to cause the speed required to create the failure of the skull bone. Golf club, flashlight, possibly but less likely a shower head.

    Since 1996 the biomedical engineering field has greatly expanded. Someone could analyze the failure pattern on her skull and figure out how it failed, and figure out the ranges of object weight and object speed could have caused the failure. If the skull is available (is it available?) it could be but under a scanning electron microscope to see microfractures, and estimate the direction of the applied force as well.

    Way out of scope for this case, however. All this goes in the dish holding Dr. Henry Lee's "rice already cooked."
    I have chatted with a few people and gotten a number for the shear strength of bone of about 9000 psi, although it could vary a bit, and actually be much higher. The failure of JonBenet's skull at the depressed fracture is a shear failure. Whatever hit her had to develop a pressure at impact greater than about 9000 psi. That's not that hard to do - a whipped golf club could easily create a pressure that high over a small area, initiating the fracture.

    I have never wanted to do this math because it's not my area of expertise ( I analyze structural failures) and we simply don't have enough information on the fracture, just that autopsy photo.

    Looking forward to listening to the fabulous Tricia's fabulous show in a little while with you all.
    I swear, I love it when you talk physics like that.

    One thing I think people tend to overlook in this case is the LACK of bruising in areas there should be lots of it if, say, JonBenet fell or were swung against something hard enough to cause such a fracture. She lived some length of time after the head injury, according to many credible sources, so bruising of her extremities or other areas of impact or even intense pressure should have been present at autopsy.

    That would have given a more precise perspective on how she got that cracked skull, I believe.

    A puzzle we haven't seen resolved is exactly why there was no swelling of the scalp or outer expression of that horrific skull injury, like a scalp wound which bled externally. I feel like there is an explanation a decent forensic medical examiner could give us, but without a trial, all we get are peripheral remarks or speculations made with a news media timer ticking away. And we haven't had any of those in many years now.

    With that being said, we have to try to put together all the clues, including lack of significant bruising or other broken or fractured bones, particularly the delicate neck bones. Without any documented evidence at autopsy of any significant impact other than the skull fracture and possibly the small, round bruise on her upper jaw, the indication to me is that the skull fracture was caused by a single blow of some kind.

    I'm just speculating, of course, so I may be entirely wrong. Still reading, too....

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  7. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    I still think the damage compares favorably to a low velocity-high pressure type trauma.

    Steve Thomas, according to his book, described his theory in a way that also fits with low velocity-high pressure (as opposed to high velocity-low pressure, which would likely be consistent with a swung object coming into contact with JonBenet's skull).

    I know everyone is tired of hearing me say this but low velocity-high pressure fits the dynamics of the wound. If that split in the skull was not 8" long and spanning the area from front to back I'd be more amendable to other considerations.
    I'm not tired of it, as I don't believe I've seen your ideas on this before.

    I'd be interested in your thoughts, absolutely.

    Since I believe JB's blood was on her pillowcase and therefore she might have even received this head injury on her own bed, I have wondered if that might have accounted for the lack of other types of bruises or injuries she might have otherwise displayed had she been on or collapsed onto a hard surface.

    But I've never been able to get any further than that with this idea.

    So, please, do tell....

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    1,000 miles from nowhere
    Posts
    165

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I'm not tired of it, as I don't believe I've seen your ideas on this before.

    I'd be interested in your thoughts, absolutely.

    Since I believe JB's blood was on her pillowcase and therefore she might have even received this head injury on her own bed, I have wondered if that might have accounted for the lack of other types of bruises or injuries she might have otherwise displayed had she been on or collapsed onto a hard surface.

    But I've never been able to get any further than that with this idea.

    So, please, do tell....
    Think about a raw egg and hitting it to crack the shell when you are baking. That is low velocity-high pressure. Think about what happens in this process. There is a small impact area and the shell cracks nearly all around.

    Then think about hitting a raw egg with, say, a #16 nail; that produces a hole and some small fractures but not a fracture that travels left and right from the impact point all the way to the anterior and posterior points on the eggshell. This is similar to being struck with an object. The above is similar to the "head" (egg) striking an object (the countertop).

    If you aren't tired reading, here's an edited cut-and-paste from Websleuths posted there by me several years ago:

    "Based on the public autopsy report and physics, it is unlikely a striking blow could leave a hole that size in the back of the head and a more than 8-inch fracture and there be so relatively little damage to the underlying tissue at the impact point. The length a fracture would/could travel (in this case 8.25 to 8.5 inches, depending on what you read), especially crossing suture lines in a pliable skull, with little damage to the underlying tissue, is limited and likely no where near 8.5 inches.

    A swung weapon, relatively, could be low or high velocity depending on several factors. Regardless, her brain matter would be mutilated by the weapon at the contact point more deeply in the brain tissue if enough force was used to create that 8-inch fracture. Bullet wounds, depending on caliber and other factors, are generally high velocity/low pressure (very simply put -- lots of speed but little relative force to the surrounding area). A two-pound hand weight (which might fit that wound) if swung hard enough to make that long fracture would mutilate the brain matter underneath the contact point.

    If someone grabbed a child by the collar while pressing their thumb into the child's neck it might do several things. Depending on where the pressure was, even that thumb could subdue the child. If the child was pushed into a doorknob hard enough, that could produce a displaced skull section that didn't break the skin but it would be nearly impossible to create an 8-inch fracture that way. If, however, someone fell on a child after the head struck the doorknob, that would create relatively high pressure to an already existing wound and could force the original, shorter fracture to lengthen. Same thing with pushing a child's head into an immovable object like a heavy bath tub. The pushing motion is low velocity but the possible momentum of pressing the heading against the blunt object would create relatively high pressure, especially if force was used. Force is relative -- an adult pressing a small child is relatively more forceful than two adults doing the same action.

    She very well could have been thrown, as you said. There are just so many variables about how that head wound could have happened but I can't see high velocity being one of them because of the lack of underlying damage at the point of impact coupled with the length of the fracture. A striking blow would probably lead to a fracture but not one that traveled from the back of the head to just above the brow line in front and certainly not one that left relatively little underlying mutilation to the brain.

    Even just using lay common sense to think it through, the "for-example argument" of a three-hundred pound man swinging a bat, on the face of it, is not consistent with JonBenet's wound. Her brain would be mush underneath the contact point. Not to mention, she would have to be in a position to receive a wound that would allow an arm to swing the weapon and hit her on the back, right-hand side. That's a wide arc for those who believe she was struck while in that cluttered basement. Just think about how long your arm is then add in the length of whatever weapon you think was used -- it is highly unlikely that could happen in that basement.

    I'm not a physician, firearms expert, or a physicist. I just have contact with some people who are."

  9. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    8,381

    Default

    Wombat:

    JonBenet had to be hit with a force large enough to cause failure of the bone structure due to punching shear. Force equal mass times acceleration (thank you, Isaac Newton), so the object delivering the force had to either be travelling fast enough, or be heavy enough, to cause this failure. Bumping into a counter or falling on the floor wouldn't have done it - those actions could have caused a concussion, but not that depressed skull fracture with the long crack emanating from it.

    I don't think there were heavy weights around the house; so it's more likely that something travelling fast did the deed, something that could be raised high enough and swung fast enough to cause the speed required to create the failure of the skull bone. Golf club, flashlight, possibly but less likely a shower head.

    Since 1996 the biomedical engineering field has greatly expanded. Someone could analyze the failure pattern on her skull and figure out how it failed, and figure out the ranges of object weight and object speed could have caused the failure. If the skull is available (is it available?) it could be but under a scanning electron microscope to see microfractures, and estimate the direction of the applied force as well.

    Way out of scope for this case, however. All this goes in the dish holding Dr. Henry Lee's "rice already cooked."
    What about the theory a few of us thought may have happened, Wombat, that JonBenét could have been thrown head first into the toilet or the side of the tub with brute force? Couldn't this action have caused the severe injury to her head as serious as the one she had?
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  10. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    8,381

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    Think about a raw egg and hitting it to crack the shell when you are baking. That is low velocity-high pressure. Think about what happens in this process. There is a small impact area and the shell cracks nearly all around.

    Then think about hitting a raw egg with, say, a #16 nail; that produces a hole and some small fractures but not a fracture that travels left and right from the impact point all the way to the anterior and posterior points on the eggshell. This is similar to being struck with an object. The above is similar to the "head" (egg) striking an object (the countertop).

    If you aren't tired reading, here's an edited cut-and-paste from Websleuths posted there by me several years ago:

    "Based on the public autopsy report and physics, it is unlikely a striking blow could leave a hole that size in the back of the head and a more than 8-inch fracture and there be so relatively little damage to the underlying tissue at the impact point. The length a fracture would/could travel (in this case 8.25 to 8.5 inches, depending on what you read), especially crossing suture lines in a pliable skull, with little damage to the underlying tissue, is limited and likely no where near 8.5 inches.

    A swung weapon, relatively, could be low or high velocity depending on several factors. Regardless, her brain matter would be mutilated by the weapon at the contact point more deeply in the brain tissue if enough force was used to create that 8-inch fracture. Bullet wounds, depending on caliber and other factors, are generally high velocity/low pressure (very simply put -- lots of speed but little relative force to the surrounding area). A two-pound hand weight (which might fit that wound) if swung hard enough to make that long fracture would mutilate the brain matter underneath the contact point.

    If someone grabbed a child by the collar while pressing their thumb into the child's neck it might do several things. Depending on where the pressure was, even that thumb could subdue the child. If the child was pushed into a doorknob hard enough, that could produce a displaced skull section that didn't break the skin but it would be nearly impossible to create an 8-inch fracture that way. If, however, someone fell on a child after the head struck the doorknob, that would create relatively high pressure to an already existing wound and could force the original, shorter fracture to lengthen. Same thing with pushing a child's head into an immovable object like a heavy bath tub. The pushing motion is low velocity but the possible momentum of pressing the heading against the blunt object would create relatively high pressure, especially if force was used. Force is relative -- an adult pressing a small child is relatively more forceful than two adults doing the same action.

    She very well could have been thrown, as you said. There are just so many variables about how that head wound could have happened but I can't see high velocity being one of them because of the lack of underlying damage at the point of impact coupled with the length of the fracture. A striking blow would probably lead to a fracture but not one that traveled from the back of the head to just above the brow line in front and certainly not one that left relatively little underlying mutilation to the brain.

    Even just using lay common sense to think it through, the "for-example argument" of a three-hundred pound man swinging a bat, on the face of it, is not consistent with JonBenet's wound. Her brain would be mush underneath the contact point. Not to mention, she would have to be in a position to receive a wound that would allow an arm to swing the weapon and hit her on the back, right-hand side. That's a wide arc for those who believe she was struck while in that cluttered basement. Just think about how long your arm is then add in the length of whatever weapon you think was used -- it is highly unlikely that could happen in that basement.

    I'm not a physician, firearms expert, or a physicist. I just have contact with some people who are."
    BOESP,

    I have always thought Patsy Ramsey threw JonBenét into the tub or toilet in a mad rage at maybe finding her little girl in a messy bed, and with all she had to do that day, she lost it!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  11. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    1,000 miles from nowhere
    Posts
    165

    Default

    Elle, what you described would certainly be an example of low velocity-high pressure.

    I agree with what you and Wombat discussed. That sounds very plausible.

    JonBenet's height, the site of her scalp wound, and the height of a doorknob pair up perfectly as well. I once speculated that JonBenet was tossed/pushed/shoved/or thrown in the door going to her bathroom, the knob hitting her near the occipital area. I speculated that Patsy shook her trying to revive JonBenet . The autopsy report described contrecoup injury, which could be explained by either impact or shaking.

    Steve Thomas, iirc from his book, believed something happened in the bathroom. He would know if anyone would.

  12. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    Elle, what you described would certainly be an example of low velocity-high pressure.

    I agree with what you and Wombat discussed. That sounds very plausible.

    JonBenet's height, the site of her scalp wound, and the height of a doorknob pair up perfectly as well. I once speculated that JonBenet was tossed/pushed/shoved/or thrown in the door going to her bathroom, the knob hitting her near the occipital area. I speculated that Patsy shook her trying to revive JonBenet . The autopsy report described contrecoup injury, which could be explained by either impact or shaking.

    Steve Thomas, iirc from his book, believed something happened in the bathroom. He would know if anyone would.
    Thanks for your detailed explanation, BOESP. I'll have to think about it.

    But first I do want to say, in spite of my deep respect for and admiration of Steve Thomas, he got that "clutching of the turtleneck, causing the bruising" from Dr. Spitz, whom after the Anthony trial I consider one of the biggest azzhat clowns in forensic con artistry available.

    For one thing, the triangular bruise on the child's neck is indicative of very common bruising in that location on other ligature strangulation victims, which you can find photos of in our library under autopsy. I'm not an expert, so it's just my opinion, of course, but I don't think that red turtleneck had one thing to do with that bruise on her neck. JMO, of course.

    As for the rest, very interesting ideas. Now you have me thinking that Boulder LE definitely need to bring in some physics and structural engineers like Wombat who specialize in doing the formulas to determine how much pressure, how much velocity, and how much mass was involved in this skull and brain injury. I'm absolutely convinced it could be done now, if it hasn't been already.

    I doubt, however, that will ever happen. But we have quite wonderful minds here, and I'm thinking OTG has got us off on a very precise problem I'd love to see those of you who have the physics and math skills work through.

    Easy to say, I know...but I can dream, can't I? Now, if I only had Patricia Cornwell's money....

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



Similar Threads

  1. Weapon used on JonBenet's skull: golf club or flashlight?
    By cynic in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 80
    Last Post: March 20, 2013, 1:08 am, Wed Mar 20 1:08:17 UTC 2013
  2. The Alleged “Skull X-ray”
    By otg in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: September 9, 2012, 10:26 pm, Sun Sep 9 22:26:18 UTC 2012
  3. JonBenet's skull and the way her face was turned....
    By Golden_Rose in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: March 18, 2008, 7:26 pm, Tue Mar 18 19:26:53 UTC 2008
  4. skull fracture
    By Nickii in forum Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: June 26, 2002, 3:41 pm, Wed Jun 26 15:41:02 UTC 2002

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •