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  1. #61

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    IMO, otg is taking us on interesting journey. And it makes me think from these perspectives:

    - the major items of assults are missing (remaining rope and tape, bloody cloths, end of the painbrash...), except flashlight. (But we all know that flashlight has played some role that night, for sure. At the minimum, to provide the light for person(s) to move around during the 'staging' but not necessarily as the head blow weapon). So, why should we aspect to found the head blow weapon? What makes us think that one of the major object of JB's injury would be available for easy discovery?

    - but what if stagers do NOT know about the head injury? It wasn't visiable...so, if person(s) who performed 'staging' do NOT know about then this deadly object wouldn't need to be 'missing' and should be easily identified based on the damaged pattern on JB sculp and in conjunction with OTHER evidences like hair, fibers...

    - in addition, if above is true then which object has been already used in connection with the prior JB's injuries? Who used this object before?

    ...and here why I believe otg is taking us on this route...I believe he/she knows the answer (I really hope so!)....Couldn't wait for his/her next FINAL post!!!!!


  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    Hypothetically, I don't believe the weapon was a golf putter. I think it was a type of golf iron, and I believe JBR's head bash happened in the basement, where there were plenty of golf clubs around, including shorter junior clubs.

    Hypothetically, I believe JonBenet was either squatting or sitting on the basement floor with her head bent down, maybe playing with something Burke had created or one of his toys. JonBenet might also have been trying to run away from Burke in the basement (if she had made him angry), and with his height advantage, he could have hit her from behind and above with a golf club, especially if there was some room between them as they ran. JonBenet may have tried to run from Burke with her head bent down to escape any blows and to see where she was going in the cluttered basement.

    Of course, OTG may show us a different possible scenario through his experiments.
    So, not in a chair, but on the floor(?). Yes! I think it could also happen this way, Cherokee! Let's hope otg's experiments can tell us more! I can't get over him making those impressions on eggs! I'll never break another egg without thinking of his egg video!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    I particularly liked the egg experiments because they seemed to illustrate perhaps the way JonBenet's skull cracked as it was struck, and because the scale of the egg v. the spoon may give us an idea as to the size of the object that was used to strike her in the head.

    The one thing I would urge you to do is borrow another type of golf club and perhaps hit something with the shaft, or borrow a real putter and strike your target harder. The golf clubs were right there in the basement, in the very hallway where JonBenet died, which is why I think one of them may have been the weapon (also the fact that John Ramsey asked about his golf clubs after the infamous "evidence grab" by Patsy's sister).

    Thanks so much for doing all of this. I only ever did one experiment, which was the pineapple and tea glass, and I need to re-do that one.
    I thought the egg demonstration would appeal to people. Anyone can do the same thing at home the next time they boil some eggs. Although the egg and the wooden spoon handle are not necessarily to any certain scale that we can draw too much of an inference from, hopefully it does show how the cylindrical shape creates the same type of fracture, and you can also see what we haven’t seen (namely the way the comminuted skull fragments might have looked).

    Actually, I went to the Salvation Army outlet looking for a couple of golf clubs (thought I might get by cheap). I found the bat for 4 bucks, but the cheapest individual club they had started at about 20 dollars. So the Scotch in me (oops -- that should be the Scottish in me) made me decide to make one myself. Hopefully, one of our golfers here might want to contribute to this exercise. I’d be more than happy for any collaborative effort from anyone here.

    For so long, I thought the putter might have been what was used. But this was based on the same info you mention, plus the prior injury to JonBenet by BR with a golf swing, and of course the description in the AR of a “rectangular” fracture. I originally formed this opinion before the autopsy photo had been leaked, so the coroners description was all I had to go on. If you notice in the video, the end of the putter makes exactly a rectangular impression in the clay. It wasn’t until I started looking at the actual shape in the photo and putting (no pun intended) things together that I decided the putter was probably not the weapon -- at least not the way I had imagined it being used.
    .
    All views expressed in my posts are my opinion and are protected under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as “freedom of speech”.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Hope Mrs. otg is getting better. I'm sure she would be happy to see you using her stainless steel bowls.

    I'm going to abandon all I'm doing right now to watch your videos,otg. You have been busy! If I don't understand anything, I will ask the ex civil engineer in here to explain the technicalities.

    Just watched the video. I would say this is true dedication otg. This took a lot of patience and time. What a great idea.
    What conclusion did you come to after looking at all of the results? Probably this was the type of experiments the police
    created. I remember seeing a few photographs. Oh! I still have another one to see.

    What a great idea using the eggs otg to produce different shapes. Congratulations otg. You are one very dedicated poster! Thank you for all the time and effort taken. I'm very impressed!
    Dear Elle. Mrs. otg is doing okay. Right now her condition is “stabilized”, which is actually good news because the chemo she’s getting is not quite as harsh on her. But no, I don't think she would be happy to see me putting clay in her mixing bowls. In fact, I’m afraid I might cause her to have a heart attack if she saw her kitchen stuff being used like that. But she didn't see it, and rest assured, Elle, I did wash everything real good before putting it away. And you might have noticed, I even used plastic wrap to keep from getting the clay directly on the inside of her mixing bowl.

    No one is ever an ex civil engineer, Elle. But if wombat (or anyone else) wants to weigh in, I look forward to anything they might say.

    (...and thank you for all the kind words.)
    .
    All views expressed in my posts are my opinion and are protected under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as “freedom of speech”.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by zoomama View Post
    Thank you OTG. Very good demo and complete with music. Loved "Bad to the Bone" and very appropriate! To my eyes the smaller diameter PVC pipe looked good in it's depression. The eggs showed how the splintering of bone results in that contact. I can imagine a harder swing into the skull on that one.

    But I'm not yet seeing the best "tool" for the job. Will further experiments show the "skull" being moved into stationery objects?

    Do YOU have a pretty good idea of what was actually used? I must admit I'm now just going to let the different pictures tell me. I had believed it was the flashlight that was left out on the counter wiped clean of any prints. But I'm beginning to think that was placed there as misdirection from the "real" object used. John was very good at misdirection.
    Ohhhhhh.... zoomama! You got the first music reference. Extra points go to anyone who got the second. It’s a little more obscure, and it might be before some people’s time.

    Actually, I’m not sure where this is going. At this point, I have an idea what I think will be the result, but I’m not certain the weapon I currently think was used will fit in with the dimensions. What I expect is that I’ll be able to give you a range of diameters that could have caused the 1/2” x 1-3/4”. I’m not sure yet just how narrow I’ll be able to make that range. But even then, more than one object might fit into that range, and it will still be up to us to decide which is more likely or logical. At the very least I hope we can put to rest some of the things that have been speculated as being the weapon (If you don’t read at the other forum, you probably don’t know about the crow bar that appeared out of thin air -- which is why I had to include that in the video.). I also hope to show what caused the linear fracture.
    .
    All views expressed in my posts are my opinion and are protected under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as “freedom of speech”.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    OTG, thanks for all the work you put into your experiments! Do you have a golf club such as the one shown below at home? If so, would it be possible to show how hitting your clay skull-shape with the BACK of the club (the heel and clubface), not the HEAD of the club, might look?

    If the golf club was the weapon, I don't believe it was used with the point down, as shown in your "Pong"/Ping putter experiment. I think it would have been swung with the heel down, not pointed up. I also don't believe if the weapon was a golf club that it was a narrow putter, but the back of a wider "iron".

    The heel and clubface of a wide iron would give a cylindrical impression, especially being swung down from above and behind the skull of the victim.
    Cherokee, I don’t have any golf clubs. I’m not a golfer. But it looks like now I’m gonna have to start carving again for at least this one. But you realize... there are hundreds of different styles of clubs. I don’t want to end up carving out an entire set. [I wonder if the Salvation Army would consider renting their golf clubs.]

    Or better yet... Does anyone who has a set of golf clubs also have a mixing bowl and a camera? The clay was less than 5 dollars, but I should tell you I couldn’t find it anywhere until I tried an Arts/Crafts store.
    .
    All views expressed in my posts are my opinion and are protected under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as “freedom of speech”.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    IMO, otg is taking us on interesting journey. And it makes me think from these perspectives:

    - the major items of assults are missing (remaining rope and tape, bloody cloths, end of the painbrash...), except flashlight. (But we all know that flashlight has played some role that night, for sure. At the minimum, to provide the light for person(s) to move around during the 'staging' but not necessarily as the head blow weapon). So, why should we aspect to found the head blow weapon? What makes us think that one of the major object of JB's injury would be available for easy discovery?

    - but what if stagers do NOT know about the head injury? It wasn't visiable...so, if person(s) who performed 'staging' do NOT know about then this deadly object wouldn't need to be 'missing' and should be easily identified based on the damaged pattern on JB sculp and in conjunction with OTHER evidences like hair, fibers...

    - in addition, if above is true then which object has been already used in connection with the prior JB's injuries? Who used this object before?

    ...and here why I believe otg is taking us on this route...I believe he/she knows the answer (I really hope so!)....Couldn't wait for his/her next FINAL post!!!!!

    As always, OM, you make some very valid points. You know (I think) that I have expressed doubt about whether the “stagers” were even aware of the head blow. But until you mentioned it here, I hadn’t really thought about the fact that the other items involved in the actual assault are all the items that are missing (possibly).
    .
    All views expressed in my posts are my opinion and are protected under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as “freedom of speech”.

  8. #68
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    OTG, I may have missed it, but did you try holding the raw egg and tapping it on a hard surface (like you would do if you were cracking an egg for making a cake, pie, etc.)

    I did something similar years ago and I'm still convinced her head struck something instead of vice versa but I've been wrong before.

    Enjoyed your demos very much!

  9. #69
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    Cherokee,

    Could you tell me where in your mind's eye do you you see Jonbenét
    being struck by this golf club. As you know I've never felt it was a golf club, because I felt like a few others that Patsy Ramsey was in a rage and threw her daughter around with her head maybe striking the bathtub or toilet, but I have come to terms with the fact that it may have been a golf club. So fill me in please, where exactly are you seeing it happening?
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    OTG, I may have missed it, but did you try holding the raw egg and tapping it on a hard surface (like you would do if you were cracking an egg for making a cake, pie, etc.)

    I did something similar years ago and I'm still convinced her head struck something instead of vice versa but I've been wrong before.

    Enjoyed your demos very much!
    This is the only way I was seeing it too, BOESP, but I must be more open to other causes. Unfortunately I don't have the full understanding of it, but it's good to have a more open mind. This wonderful video of otg's is amazing, showing us the different shapes, both with the eggs and the clay. How gently he tapped the eggs without breaking them, and giving us all excellent results with his clay experiments. No doubt the police went through their own.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Cherokee,

    Could you tell me where in your mind's eye do you you see Jonbenét
    being struck by this golf club. As you know I've never felt it was a golf club, because I felt like a few others that Patsy Ramsey was in a rage and threw her daughter around with her head maybe striking the bathtub or toilet, but I have come to terms with the fact that it may have been a golf club. So fill me in please, where exactly are you seeing it happening?
    As I said in my earlier post, I believe JBR was probably struck in the basement, but I'm open to other suggestions.

    The idea of Burke hitting JBR with a golf club makes sense to me, and it also makes sense according to physics that she was struck from behind by a person taller than she was. The force of the blow was carried forward on JBR's skull and cracked it longitudinally towards her forehead. I don't believe it was cracked OPEN where a person could see JBR's brain at that point. It wasn't until the autopsy, when the skin was removed, that the crack widened.

    I believe there was probably an indentation in JBR's skull where the blow landed, but her hair and skin covered it, so there was no outward sign of bleeding. However, the sound of JBR's skull cracking would have been heard by her assailant. It would have been a sickening sound. JBR would have dropped to the floor immediately.

    I always had problems with John covering for Patsy if Patsy was responsible for JBR's death. Now it makes sense to me that John and Patsy were both covering for Burke. To me, it is the only scenario that fits all the known facts AND the behavior of the Ramseys after JBR's death.

    I recently read about another murder in a family where a girl "accidentally" killed her younger brother with a shotgun. One friend of the family explained to detectives they thought they reason the mother was covering for the girl and providing an alibi was because the mother had already lost one child and she didn't want to lose another. I couldn't believe my eyes. Those were the exact words I had used to explain why Patsy Ramsey would have concocted the ransom note and pushed the intruder theory.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    This is the only way I was seeing it too, BOESP, but I must be more open to other causes. Unfortunately I don't have the full understanding of it, but it's good to have a more open mind. This wonderful video of otg's is amazing, showing us the different shapes, both with the eggs and the clay. How gently he tapped the eggs without breaking them, and giving us all excellent results with his clay experiments. No doubt the police went through their own.
    I very well could be wrong. But the eggs need to be struck with a proportionally similar instrument. We don't even know what, if any, instrument was used as a weapon. I think OTG mentioned this in a posting over on Websleuths.

    Also, the crack in the egg was not nearly as long or wide, in comparison to JonBenet's skull, as what I could see in OTG's video. Since we don't know the weapon it is hard to come to a conclusion. However, when striking an egg on a hard surface you can get the proportionately longer-wider fracture that will displace part of the shell. If you use enough force (pressure) the egg will smash entirely.

    OTG's examples are examples of a relatively high velocity/low pressure wound while the striking on a surface with the egg is exactly opposite -- low velocity/high pressure.

    Add in Steve Thomas's opinion and I still am not convinced JonBenet was struck with a weapon. I'm open to changing my mind but I just haven't seen convincing evidence yet. I really don't even know if the Internet photos of JonBenet's skull are actually hers. I'm just hesitant to commit to anything when I haven't viewed the actual evidence.

    I'm not being argumentative, just cautious.



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