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  1. #73
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    It seems to me that if John and Patsy were covering for Burke they would have kept their mouths shut and not keep bringing it up in the media via interviews and books. Seems like a briefing on how JonBenet died in a tragic accident and the family requests privacy would have sufficed but no, they wanted the whole world to know about it.

    Why stage the elaborate version when "what happened in Boulder could have stayed in Boulder." I think there's more to it than just covering for Burke.
    Maybe

  2. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    As I said in my earlier post, I believe JBR was probably struck in the basement, but I'm open to other suggestions.

    The idea of Burke hitting JBR with a golf club makes sense to me, and it also makes sense according to physics that she was struck from behind by a person taller than she was. The force of the blow was carried forward on JBR's skull and cracked it longitudinally towards her forehead. I don't believe it was cracked OPEN where a person could see JBR's brain at that point. It wasn't until the autopsy, when the skin was removed, that the crack widened.

    I believe there was probably an indentation in JBR's skull where the blow landed, but her hair and skin covered it, so there was no outward sign of bleeding. However, the sound of JBR's skull cracking would have been heard by her assailant. It would have been a sickening sound. JBR would have dropped to the floor immediately.

    I always had problems with John covering for Patsy if Patsy was responsible for JBR's death. Now it makes sense to me that John and Patsy were both covering for Burke. To me, it is the only scenario that fits all the known facts AND the behavior of the Ramseys after JBR's death.

    I recently read about another murder in a family where a girl "accidentally" killed her younger brother with a shotgun. One friend of the family explained to detectives they thought they reason the mother was covering for the girl and providing an alibi was because the mother had already lost one child and she didn't want to lose another. I couldn't believe my eyes. Those were the exact words I had used to explain why Patsy Ramsey would have concocted the ransom note and pushed the intruder theory.
    Yes. Cherokee, you did! I must be tired! :( Sorry about this! I backtracked!
    No fun being an oldie! Yes! The Ramseys could have been covering for
    Burke! (?). They had already lost one child.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  3. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    Dear Elle. Mrs. otg is doing okay. Right now her condition is “stabilized”, which is actually good news because the chemo she’s getting is not quite as harsh on her. But no, I don't think she would be happy to see me putting clay in her mixing bowls. In fact, I’m afraid I might cause her to have a heart attack if she saw her kitchen stuff being used like that. But she didn't see it, and rest assured, Elle, I did wash everything real good before putting it away. And you might have noticed, I even used plastic wrap to keep from getting the clay directly on the inside of her mixing bowl.

    No one is ever an ex civil engineer, Elle. But if wombat (or anyone else) wants to weigh in, I look forward to anything they might say.

    (...and thank you for all the kind words.)
    Pleased to hear Mrs. otg is doing well. I'm sure with your great care she will improve. I don't think the clay would have caused any damage to the stainless steel otg. It wasn't course. First glance I thought it was dough! You have a terrific amount of patience to do all this. I truly am very impressed!

    Let's hope some good news turns up because of all your work and patience.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  4. #76

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    OK, I'm here.

    Love the egg video, otg - it shows very well how cracks form around a failure - structural engineers refer to this as punching shear failure.

    As I've written previously, human bone is very strong, stronger than concrete. These are the strength characteristics of a femur - I couldn't find anything specific on skulls:

    Compressive Longitudinal strength, 205 MPa (29,000 psi)
    Compressive transverse strength, 131 MPa (19,000 psi)
    Tensile longitudinal strength, 135 MPa (19,500 psi)
    Tensile transverse strength, 53 MPa (7700 psi)
    Shear strength, 65-71 MPa (9400-10,000 psi)

    It's the shear strength that we are concerned with here. Whatever hit Jonbenet's skull inflicted a force of greater than 10,000 pounds per square inch at a point on her skull, initiating the failure. It doesn't mean that she was hit with 10,000 pounds of force, but that a local area experienced more than 10,000 psi.

    BOESP, the pressure the skull took to fail was the same whether it was low- or high-velocity impact.

    I could do rough calculations to estimate the force that hit her and velocity the object was travelling, but there are too many unknowns (how thick was the skull, etc.) and this is not my field (and I don't want to scare Elle). Engineers aren't supposed to practice outside their field or in states where they aren't licensed, so once I start doing calcs I'm kind of violating the rules. There are people who know how to do this, biomedical engineers, I wish I knew someone.

    My opinion is that she was hit with a golf club by someone taller than her, which everyone in the house was, but I believe only Burke would have done it. The rest of it was inflicted by her disgusting parents.

  5. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    Cherokee, I don’t have any golf clubs. I’m not a golfer. But it looks like now I’m gonna have to start carving again for at least this one. But you realize... there are hundreds of different styles of clubs. I don’t want to end up carving out an entire set. [I wonder if the Salvation Army would consider renting their golf clubs.]

    Or better yet... Does anyone who has a set of golf clubs also have a mixing bowl and a camera? The clay was less than 5 dollars, but I should tell you I couldn’t find it anywhere until I tried an Arts/Crafts store.
    I have an entire set of adult (left-handed) golf clubs, and a camera. I don't have the stainless steel mixing bowls but I have other bowls that might suffice. And I can get some modeling clay. One element that you have probably already considered is that clay does not have the same resistance as a human skull, so we must factor that in when we consider what the hole in JB's skull looked like. Part of the shape etc. has to factor in the skull bone's properties, wouldn't you say? Is there some material we could get or make that would dry or could be baked into a harder surface?

    Totally unrelated to the weapon, but I don't know where to put it - the family dog spent time at the neighbor's across the street, right? I wonder if Burke had been cruel to this little dog?? If only animals could talk, that little dog might have given us some valuable information. Of course he wasn't in the house the night JonBenet was killed, but he could tell us what really happened in that house before that Christmas night.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  6. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post


    BOESP, the pressure the skull took to fail was the same whether it was low- or high-velocity impact.
    Yes, I agree with you on that but its the velocity that affects the appearance of the impact point. High velocity-low pressure, such as a bullet or swiftly flung bat-like weapon, golf club or whatever, should leave a deeply penetrating hole with a great deal of underlying damage but relatively little in the way of an extended fracture. An instrument that is swung at high speed would have left a lot of deeply imbedded trauma, or at least more than what the autopsy reads.

    To get the 8 1/2" linear fracture, the pressure needed with a swung object would have to have been a high velocity-high pressure wound. If so, her head should have not only been fractured but also crushed with much underlying brain damage.

    In my opinion, there also isn't enough underlying damage at the impact point for it to have been high velocity. And a swung object that has enough pressure to create an 8 1/2" fracture would have, in my opinion, crushed a much larger area of JonBenet's skull.

    Steve Thomas's theory fits a low velocity-high pressure event and that fits the appearance of the wound (in my opinion).

    That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

    P.S. I totally agree with the part about the disgusting parents.

  7. #79

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    We lack information about the impact point because we've never seen the displaced piece of skull. As far as I remember the autopsy report doesn't discuss it.

    A slower moving object would have to be pretty heavy to create the hole in her skull - as speed (really acceleration) decreases, the mass has to increase to get to the 10,000 psi. That would mean that a stronger person would have to lift it, so that points to John Ramsey. I think that's unlikely.

    A golf club, on the other hand, is MADE to move swiftly.

    Well, we all have opinions!

  8. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    We lack information about the impact point because we've never seen the displaced piece of skull. As far as I remember the autopsy report doesn't discuss it.

    A slower moving object would have to be pretty heavy to create the hole in her skull - as speed (really acceleration) decreases, the mass has to increase to get to the 10,000 psi. That would mean that a stronger person would have to lift it, so that points to John Ramsey. I think that's unlikely.

    A golf club, on the other hand, is MADE to move swiftly.

    Well, we all have opinions!
    BBM. And we all know what that means. (ROFL)

    Now, about that golf club. I don't play golf but I understand it is made to move swiftly but it isn't designed to deliver a lot of pressure (unless the golfer falls on top of the ball when he tees off).

  9. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom View Post
    I have an entire set of adult (left-handed) golf clubs, and a camera. I don't have the stainless steel mixing bowls but I have other bowls that might suffice. And I can get some modeling clay. One element that you have probably already considered is that clay does not have the same resistance as a human skull, so we must factor that in when we consider what the hole in JB's skull looked like. Part of the shape etc. has to factor in the skull bone's properties, wouldn't you say? Is there some material we could get or make that would dry or could be baked into a harder surface?

    Totally unrelated to the weapon, but I don't know where to put it - the family dog spent time at the neighbor's across the street, right? I wonder if Burke had been cruel to this little dog?? If only animals could talk, that little dog might have given us some valuable information. Of course he wasn't in the house the night JonBenet was killed, but he could tell us what really happened in that house before that Christmas night.
    So, you're a Lefty hm? I have golf clubs here too, but I'm not going to experiment with them or buy clay. I'll have to wait until all the snow melts and hope I can still hit a golf ball a few yards. I'll leave all the clay experiments to you younger ones! The best o' luck! The very fact you want to do this experiment tells me just how dedicated you are. More power to you!

    About the Ramsey's little dog, I wonder if the neighbours ever gave the Boulder detectives any information as to why they were taking care of it (?).
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  10. #82
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    I remember reading somewhere that Patsy said Jacques the bichon was hard to potty train and he always made messes. She said because they often traveled or were not home and because the Joe Barnhill family really loved the dog and often cared for Jacques they let him stay at the Barnhill's.

    Patsy said the only reason they had the dog was because JonBenet wanted him.

    Joe Barnhill adopted the dog after JonBenet died. It is very unusual for a relative to get rid of a dog owned by a child or spouse who has passed away even if the survivor(s) isn't a dog lover. It is seen as a psychological attachment to the deceased (or so says the psychology literature).

  11. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    I remember reading somewhere that Patsy said Jacques the bichon was hard to potty train and he always made messes. She said because they often traveled or were not home and because the Joe Barnhill family really loved the dog and often cared for Jacques they let him stay at the Barnhill's.

    Patsy said the only reason they had the dog was because JonBenet wanted him.

    Joe Barnhill adopted the dog after JonBenet died. It is very unusual for a relative to get rid of a dog owned by a child or spouse who has passed away even if the survivor(s) isn't a dog lover. It is seen as a psychological attachment to the deceased (or so says the psychology literature).
    It's VERY TRUE, BOESP! Looks like remaining Ramseys (including Burke!) had DISattachment syndrome for everything (except JB's tiara for coffin).

  12. #84
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    OM4U,

    That family, based on what I've read and seen in their interviews, was dysfunctional in many ways.



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